Playing out from the back...

[thepolice123]

I'd like to bump this thread.

What's better? Playing out from the back and accepting the occasional deadly mistake? Or hoofing the ball and resorting to claiming the second ball, or winning the header, but accepting the lack of control in where the ball lands? Plus your midgets up front getting beaten to headers by gigantic CBs (think Vidic against Aston Villa a few years ago)

I've long thought that sides that master playing out the back have a higher ceiling than sides that hoof and pray. Is there a third option I'm missing?

Go!

Its not just about hoofing it away. You need to hit it accurately into a zone where your forwards and midfielders have a very high chance of winning the second ball. Also you definitely need a left-sided CB who is comfortable with using his left foot, the likes of Terry, Vidic, VVD and Ramos are excellent at hitting it long with their weaker foot.

Personally, I don't think the first goal conceded by Real is due them rigidly sticking to the playing out from the back plan. It looked more like three players who panicked and are not confident on their weak foot.

 

[DON’T PANIC ™]

When the keeper rolls the ball out to a nervous centre half who immediately passes it back to the keeper as the opponent is pressing it becomes a problem. The way Lindelof and DeGea do it gives me palpitations.
Mixing it up, so we’re not predictable is the best way.

 

[Amar__]

Not in England. I meant throughout the years, there have been better teams than Pep's City and they didn't play out from the back like Pep's City.

I think Pep over-tinkered too much in Europe with City. Experimented with his line-up at Anfield and got blasted 3-0.

As for Bayern, he abandoned his principles vs Real at the Allianz and failed miserable(there's a book about this). He stupidly tried to man mark MSN at the Nou Camp while being decimated with injuries. The game vs Atletico, I think they were unlucky. They dominated that game in the 2nd leg.

He's had his failures in Europe, but how are any of them connected to playing out from the back?

He simply wasn't good in Europe with Bayern, for whatever the reason. He underachieved with that team anyhwere else other than the league.

He's had his failures in Europe, but how are any of them connected to playing out from the back?

They are connected with his style of football and how it's definitely not the greatest solution in Europe, and his style of football involved lots of playing it out from the back. I mean, it's not the most obvious reason, but they conceeded lot of goals over the years because he prefers ball playing CBs over better defenders. Him buying someone like Stones as a future leader of that defence pretty much sums up his failure in Europe so far with City. And defence.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

He simply wasn't good in Europe with Bayern, for whatever the reason. He underachieved with that team anyhwere else other than the league.



They are connected with his style of football and how it's definitely not the greatest solution in Europe, and his style of football involved lots of playing it out from the back.

You said teams playing out from the back rigidly don't have great success.

I'm not sure what you're arguing at the moment.

 

[Cheimoon]

There is literally not* a great example from recent years that playing it out from the back at any cost is successful way of playing football.

*except Pep's Barca, which were once in a lifetime generation of players, and their aeakest point was still their defence.

This is nonsense though; which team has ever tried to play out from the back at any cost? For example, there is no way Zidane is now telling Varane that it's OK, at least he didn't hoof it. He'll be telling him that he fecking needs to figure out when to keep passing and when to just put his bloody foot through the ball.

 

[Amar__]

You said teams playing out from the back rigidly don't have great success.

I'm not sure what you're arguing at the moment.

Yeah, and I am sticking with that. See my edit also.

I mean, it's not the most obvious reason, but they conceeded lot of goals over the years because he prefers ball playing CBs over better defenders. Him buying someone like Stones as a future leader of that defence pretty much sums up his failure in Europe so far with City. And defence.

My point is that Pep's way of playing football(and Zidane's tonight's) is not the most successful one by any means, which was proven in last 20 years both in Europe and domestically in every league.

 

[Mickeza]

It’s just about knowing when to play and when not too. Varane has absolutely nowhere to go when he gets the ball and he should clear it - the big mistake is Courtois passing it to him short when he has options long. Man City play from the back but that invariably ends with Ederson picking out a direct pass out wide.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Yeah, and I am sticking with that. See my edit also.



My point is that Pep's way of playing football(and Zidane's tonight's) is not the most successful one by any means, which was proven in last 20 years both in Europe and domestically in every league.

That's a different argument though.

I never said it was the most successful. That's certainly subjective.

However, you can't deny that it's been successful.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I'd like to bump this thread.

What's better? Playing out from the back and accepting the occasional deadly mistake? Or hoofing the ball and resorting to claiming the second ball, or winning the header, but accepting the lack of control in where the ball lands? Plus your midgets up front getting beaten to headers by gigantic CBs (think Vidic against Aston Villa a few years ago)

I've long thought that sides that master playing out the back have a higher ceiling than sides that hoof and pray. Is there a third option I'm missing?

Go!

Depends on the level of organization you're playing against.

Against very organized pressing teams who's entire gameplan is to win the ball high and score then don't risk it, against teams which aren't that organized then go for it. But the most important thing is to have alternatives and not be 'stuck' in a certain way of playing.

The default should be to try and play ball, but if in a match you see going long is working (after giving it a good honest try) then go for it. One thing I loved with the 3 time CL winning Madrid was their flexibility in handling any opponent or style. They had the attributes in the squad to play in every style at a high enough level to win the match.

 

[Jezpeza]

I'd like to bump this thread.

What's better? Playing out from the back and accepting the occasional deadly mistake? Or hoofing the ball and resorting to claiming the second ball, or winning the header, but accepting the lack of control in where the ball lands? Plus your midgets up front getting beaten to headers by gigantic CBs (think Vidic against Aston Villa a few years ago)

I've long thought that sides that master playing out the back have a higher ceiling than sides that hoof and pray. Is there a third option I'm missing?

Go!

Horses for courses. I think you have to try and win each game in front of you.

People have a fetish about ‘philosophy’ in football now, but for me that means having one formation, one Tactic. We’ve seen managers like Wenger and Poch and now JM start to flounder because of this.

In my opinion, it makes you predictable and easier to play against. People can say what they like about man city and the defence This season etc etc but i think the main thing is people have learnt How to play against them to increase chance of getting something.

Obviously, In general the more successful teams nowadays tend to play with 3 forwards and play out from the back. No sense in trying to smash goal kicks up to your Skilful 5’10 forwards to win knock ons against 6’4 centre halves.

At the same time, its no good blindly sticking to this and playing out from the back against a team that plays a high press and wants to make you work your bollocks off to get the ball out of your own half, and force you into mistakes. You’d be better of smashing it straight through to their keeper and making them try and play through you.

I think generally if you play ‘out from the back’ and have better players than other teams you will do well, but must be prepared to do different in games against other top sides or end up with a wank record against them like Poch did. On tje flip side, burnley have done Relatively well with a traditional 442 And big front men

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Playing out from the back as a general rule is good but a lot of modern players and teams seem to be ridiculously inflexible with it. It's almost like they're afraid to kick it long under pressure because it's been coached out of them. There's a time and place and sometimes booting it out of play is actually ok. Doesn't make you a hoofer, just time and place for everything. Everyone makes mistakes but you wonder the actual advantage of playing short passes along your goal line. Diminishing returns at that point.

It actually probably made more sense to play from the back a few years ago than it does now. The top teams have such well-trained presses that all it takes is a momentary lapse and it's cost you a goal. Kicking it longer bypasses that press and that risk in one go.

 

[Powderfinger]

Horses for courses. I think you have to try and win each game in front of you.

People have a fetish about ‘philosophy’ in football now, but for me that means having one formation, one Tactic. We’ve seen managers like Wenger and Poch and now JM start to flounder because of this.

In my opinion, it makes you predictable and easier to play against. People can say what they like about man city and the defence This season etc etc but i think the main thing is people have learnt How to play against them to increase chance of getting something.

Obviously, In general the more successful teams nowadays tend to play with 3 forwards and play out from the back. No sense in trying to smash goal kicks up to your Skilful 5’10 forwards to win knock ons against 6’4 centre halves.

At the same time, its no good blindly sticking to this and playing out from the back against a team that plays a high press and wants to make you work your bollocks off to get the ball out of your own half, and force you into mistakes. You’d be better of smashing it straight through to their keeper and making them try and play through you.

I think generally if you play ‘out from the back’ and have better players than other teams you will do well, but must be prepared to do different in games against other top sides or end up with a wank record against them like Poch did. On tje flip side, burnley have done Relatively well with a traditional 442 And big front men

Exactly this. The best sides can adapt tactics and to different game circumstances.

There are also a lot of different ways you can approach "playing it out from the back." Against both City and Chelsea, Arsenal played it out from the back a lot, but they often tried to keep possession, lull the other side forward, and then knock it over the top to Aubameyang. The long ball still has a really important place when you're playing it out from the back.

 

[Tyrion]

Its not just about hoofing it away. You need to hit it accurately into a zone where your forwards and midfielders have a very high chance of winning the second ball. Also you definitely need a left-sided CB who is comfortable with using his left foot, the likes of Terry, Vidic, VVD and Ramos are excellent at hitting it long with their weaker foot.

Personally, I don't think the first goal conceded by Real is due them rigidly sticking to the playing out from the back plan. It looked more like three players who panicked and are not confident on their weak foot.

True but in those circumstances, playing out from the back makes it worse. If you don't have the defenders for it, playing out from the back is shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Jezpeza]

Exactly this. The best sides can adapt tactics and to different game circumstances.

There are also a lot of different ways you can approach "playing it out from the back." Against both City and Chelsea, Arsenal played it out from the back a lot, but they often tried to keep possession, lull the other side forward, and then knock it over the top to Aubameyang. The long ball still has a really important place when you're playing it out from the back.

Absolutely. You dont necessarily have to play up through the thirds. Lots of oppurtunities to play in behind when you have pacy forwards

 

[Web of Bissaka]

I'd like to bump this thread.

What's better? Playing out from the back and accepting the occasional deadly mistake? Or hoofing the ball and resorting to claiming the second ball, or winning the header, but accepting the lack of control in where the ball lands? Plus your midgets up front getting beaten to headers by gigantic CBs (think Vidic against Aston Villa a few years ago)

I've long thought that sides that master playing out the back have a higher ceiling than sides that hoof and pray. Is there a third option I'm missing?

Go!

Generally play out from back is better.

Prefer the 3rd option - balance of both. That way, it'll cover all bases i.e. problems in different situations and weaknesses of each. Then the only weakness left is player's decisions making ability.

Play out from back depends hugely on players abilities on the ball and more so good tactical organisations, good coaching in setting up good structure/shape, players positionally, players receiving and team play. Shit at either one and it's a huge weakness to be exploited. Generally this is short passes to keep possession better.

Hoofing depends on if you have good target men or target area. Essentially this is long ball. It's a safer option but can be pointless if you don't have a good target men or if you have bad strategies. There has to be strategies, else this is just clearing out the ball.

Some situations eg. against good organised high press depriving you of good options for playing out from the back, meant hoofing it is a lot more useful option. So, always having both options trained and prepare well is always better.

United actually use both. Mainly play from back but occasionally hoof it. Ole sensibly know the weaknesses his team has and allows his players to hoof it if have to. It's not strict. Shaw, Lind and Mag sensibly knows what to do when they can't play out from the back, they'll hoof it usually with good accurate long balls. We also prepare this by having Martial and Ighalo play the CF target men role (we also tried this with Rashford when he played CF, it was terrible) and the wingers + FBs running up the wings into spaces as options for hoofs. Once our CF contested it, our CAM will pick up the pieces usually if the duels are in our favor.

 

[Blood Mage]

It's an effective means of dominating a game until you come up against an organised and energetic high press. Then it becomes suicidal and you should stop doing it.

 

[Amar__]

That's a different argument though.

I never said it was the most successful. That's certainly subjective.

However, you can't deny that it's been successful.

Fair enough, I never said it's not been successful either.

 

[georgipep]

It's an effective means of dominating a game until you come up against an organised and energetic high press. Then it becomes suicidal and you should stop doing it.

Why stop doing it? They should just be more careful and precise. When they bypass the pressing, the opponent is left with numerical disadvantage and is basically "hit on the counter". Watch the Arsenal games against City and Chelsea in the Cup recently. Brilliant play from the back under heavy press. That's the blueprint, for me. Arteta has done well to force their defence and midfield into playing together, as a unit, when progressing the ball from the back, releasing the wing players as a result.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Yeah, and I am sticking with that. See my edit also.



My point is that Pep's way of playing football(and Zidane's tonight's) is not the most successful one by any means, which was proven in last 20 years both in Europe and domestically in every league.

7 CL titles in a little over a decade say otherwise. 4 by Madrid and 3 by Barca.

 

[RooneyLegend]

It's an effective means of dominating a game until you come up against an organised and energetic high press. Then it becomes suicidal and you should stop doing it.

This. It really is this simple, teams are making it look like Brain surgery at this point.

 

[Champ]

Yeah, and I am sticking with that. See my edit also.



My point is that Pep's way of playing football(and Zidane's tonight's) is not the most successful one by any means, which was proven in last 20 years both in Europe and domestically in every league.

It is the most successful way of playing though, hence most successful teams employing similar tactics.
These tactics evolve though, and even Peps tactics have evolved to enable a quicker and more direct way of playing out from the back, utilising the number 6 dropping deep and the wing backs in the half space creating overloads.
Nearly every team in the world now asks their CBs to push wide and let the full backs bomb on when their keeper has the ball, this is to enable the short distribution and easier playing out from the back.
United have done it to great effect this season.
The only team I can think of to have won something who didn't play it out from the back is probably Leicester who looked to get the ball into the channels as early as possible.

 

[flappyjay]

United have done it to great effect this season.
The only team I can think of to have won something who didn't play it out from the back is probably Leicester who looked to get the ball into the channels as early as possible.

Leicester do play from the back, Evans and soyuncu are very comfortable on the ball. United do it well against teams that don't press, as soon a team presses us we are all over the place

 

[Zoo]

Why stop doing it? They should just be more careful and precise. When they bypass the pressing, the opponent is left with numerical disadvantage and is basically "hit on the counter". Watch the Arsenal games against City and Chelsea in the Cup recently. Brilliant play from the back under heavy press. That's the blueprint, for me. Arteta has done well to force their defence and midfield into playing together, as a unit, when progressing the ball from the back, releasing the wing players as a result.

Arsenal bypassed Chelsea’s press by whacking it long into the channel for Aubameyang. It was the right thing to do and what United should have done in the semi-final.

 

[Champ]

Leicester do play from the back, Evans and soyuncu are very comfortable on the ball. United do it well against teams that don't press, as soon a team presses us we are all over the place

I meant the Leicester team when they won the league, they were back to front very quickly.
As soon as a team presses collectively we seem to be in trouble, but the more we get comfortable with that situation the better we will be at dealing with it.

 

[11101]

It's an effective means of dominating a game until you come up against an organised and energetic high press. Then it becomes suicidal and you should stop doing it.

Then do it better. If you're good enough at it then the pressing team gets tired and the game is yours. You cant train a team to play two different styles and expect them to be top class in either, and that are ways to break a press that dont involve abandoning playing from the back.

 

[georgipep]

Arsenal bypassed Chelsea’s press by whacking it long into the channel for Aubameyang. It was the right thing to do and what United should have done in the semi-final.

The long passes to Aubameyang were not done in panic by the CBs or GK. They were the culmination of their play from the back, drawing pressing opponents with short passes before releasing on the wing. That is, very much, playing from the back.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Being able to play out from the back is essential to becoming a top side in today's game. And yes you have to persist with it despite errors to truly master it. We haven't really focused on it in 7 years. Hopefully we will within the next 10.

 

[Zoo]

The long passes to Aubameyang were not done in panic by the CBs or GK. They were the culmination of their play from the back, drawing pressing opponents with short passes before releasing on the wing. That is, very much, playing from the back.

Never said it was panic but there’s nothing brilliant about turning a defence and recognising that Azpi against Auba is a mismatch in terms of pace.

 

[Adisa]

I'd like to bump this thread.

What's better? Playing out from the back and accepting the occasional deadly mistake? Or hoofing the ball and resorting to claiming the second ball, or winning the header, but accepting the lack of control in where the ball lands? Plus your midgets up front getting beaten to headers by gigantic CBs (think Vidic against Aston Villa a few years ago)

I've long thought that sides that master playing out the back have a higher ceiling than sides that hoof and pray. Is there a third option I'm missing?

Go!

Your post is absolutely right. We have to stick to it at all costs.
When people say "at all costs" it doesn't mean a defender must never clear/hoof the ball, it means it should never be a primary tactic.
We have to stick with it u til we are better at it and we will get better.

 

[georgipep]

Never said it was panic but there’s nothing brilliant about turning a defence and recognising that Azpi against Auba is a mismatch in terms of pace.

It isn't as simple as a quick forward against a defender. There are 10 outfield opponents and they realize where the danger is so they double/triple on the biggest treats. Thus, playing out from the back draws and teases opposition to vacate space in behind.

Look at this:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Another example how to bypass press with a direct/long(er) passing style. In the end it all depends on the opponent. Horses for courses and all that.

 

[He'sRaldo]

The goalkeeper is an important additional man to bypass a press not only to create an extra man, but also to hit accurate lofted balls to the wingbacks who are pushed high up the pitch. It's an excellent way to beat a high press that pushes up all the way to the keeper, and Alisson and Ederson show this ability very consistently for Liverpool and City enabling them to get out of that high congested area in a more straightforward manner.

De Gea isn't the most accurate with the ball at his feet, so we don't utilize this area to it's full effectiveness. Our wingbacks don't even push that high since no one really finds them with those lofted passes anyway. It's also debatable how smooth a first touch AWB can take to control and take advantage of a lofted pass before the other team can reorganize itself, so that's another thing to consider.

 

[Icemav]

Playing out from the back as a general rule is good but a lot of modern players and teams seem to be ridiculously inflexible with it. It's almost like they're afraid to kick it long under pressure because it's been coached out of them. There's a time and place and sometimes booting it out of play is actually ok. Doesn't make you a hoofer, just time and place for everything. Everyone makes mistakes but you wonder the actual advantage of playing short passes along your goal line. Diminishing returns at that point.

It actually probably made more sense to play from the back a few years ago than it does now. The top teams have such well-trained presses that all it takes is a momentary lapse and it's cost you a goal. Kicking it longer bypasses that press and that risk in one go.

I think its soemtimes the case that if a coach gave the players freedom to choose either option they would start default kicking it long. Less effort and risk. Forcing players to to build from the back I believe the coaches feel they are instilling a very good habit which becomes even more important when the team is under pressure or defending a lead. If the players starting hoofing and hoping in those circinstances it can cause big problems.

Personally though I do agree it can be excessive and surprising opposition with variety is more effective. I just believe its hard for coaches to instruct the average players when and how to mix it up when playing from the back and ultimately you would start seeing a majority of long clearances which would lose control of the game and start to mess up the treams tactics. However I just remember Xavi's personal philosophy, I am always thinking about space on the pitch, and I think that is a better general pholosophy. Not robotically playing short passes whatever the circumstances.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I like when teams play from the back and take control of a game, but sometimes teams can become too obsessed with it. If a team is pressing and doing a good job of it, then you have to recognize that and start playing direct. As much as I hate to admit it, Liverpool is really good at that. They play a ton of long balls that spring attacks. Mane and Salah are constantly on the move and when a team is pressing it means there is a lot of space behind defenders...

 

[He'sRaldo]

I like when teams play from the back and take control of a game, but sometimes teams can become too obsessed with it. If a team is pressing and doing a good job of it, then you have to recognize that and start playing direct. As much as I hate to admit it, Liverpool is really good at that. They play a ton of long balls that spring attacks. Mane and Salah are constantly on the move and when a team is pressing it means there is a lot of space behind defenders...

It's very good to have options and be multi-faceted.

If the team can prepare for most situations like long balls, balls from Gk to fullbacks, balls down the channels, playing from the back, high press, counter attack, possession, etc. It makes the team very adaptabe to any situation they find themselves in a game.

Liverpool admittedly is a good example, as well as 3x CL Madrid under Zidane and Heynckes' treble winning Bayern.

 

[Bobski]

Playing out from the back is necessary in the modern game, but as with everything you need to be able to adapt to circumstances. Varane needs to read that situation, let the ball roll across his body and just hook it up the line. City play a lot of long balls through Ederson, just he has exceptional ball striking so bringing the press up then letting the keeper exploit a space behind it is an important part of their game.

 

[Sandikan]

Playing out from the back is lovely and that, but there's times whoever you are, that you just have to bloody boot it.

When you're about 6 yards out from your own goal and 2 metres from an opponent being a very obvious example.

 

[Amar__]

Barcelona have just conceeded great chance for Lewandowski, that wayward shot from Thiago, a goal that Perisic scored, and a corner kick - all after terrible pieces of play at the back, and all because their players are positioned so deep when their keeper has the ball. And all in space of ten minutes.

The conceeded corner was amazing though, it would be amazing if someone could gif it ( @GifLord - it was around 14th minute I think, or it was 18th). Their keeper takes the goal kick, Pique and Lenglet stay just few meters next to him for some reason, after he passes to him, and then they panic with the ball and kick it to no one upfield only for Bayern to easily take it away and get a corner - around 5 seconds after Barcelona's goal kick.

 

[Rozay]

A common rebuttal has often been ‘Not everyone can do it like Barcelona’. They are all over the place at the moment, and a lot is of their own making.

 

[adexkola]

A common rebuttal has often been ‘Not everyone can do it like Barcelona’. They are all over the place at the moment, and a lot is of their own making.

Even though they've been sloppy at it, there is no stopping this Bayern side today. Hoof it long or play it short, they will come at you.

 

[GifLord]

Barcelona have just conceeded great chance for Lewandowski, that wayward shot from Thiago, a goal that Perisic scored, and a corner kick - all after terrible pieces of play at the back, and all because their players are positioned so deep when their keeper has the ball. And all in space of ten minutes.

The conceeded corner was amazing though, it would be amazing if someone could gif it ( @GifLord - it was around 14th minute I think, or it was 18th). Their keeper takes the goal kick, Pique and Lenglet stay just few meters next to him for some reason, after he passes to him, and then they panic with the ball and kick it to no one upfield only for Bayern to easily take it away and get a corner - around 5 seconds after Barcelona's goal kick.