Prophet Muhammad cartoon sparks Batley Grammar School protest

izzydiggler

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This issue is big
It's a strange world we live in, sure enough.

The papers and news outlets in UK have reported on the Batley school incident but the detail has been largely ignored. The focus has been on what councillors, MPs etc have said with regards to the situation. The actuall situation is pretty much left at teacher suspended for showing cartoon.
You're right it is really weird. That not a single news outlet has shown the cartoon that is causing such debates and protests is absolutely ridiculous.
 

Roane

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This issue is big


You're right it is really weird. That not a single news outlet has shown the cartoon that is causing such debates and protests is absolutely ridiculous.
I don't think you've followed the conversation. It appears to be that the cartoon wasn't the issue.

The details of what happened are what's missing, yet people have come to conclusions and drawn battle lines.

Community members who have said and written that they won't tolerate violence or threats of violence are not being shown, neither are representatives who are shocked that division is being amplified rather than the calls to come together and have a calm and respectful discussion.

Seems some folk just want to inflame the situation and want the cartoon published by all and sundry, even though it appears it's a resource that been used for a couple of years. Wonder why that is?
 

izzydiggler

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I don't think you've followed the conversation. It appears to be that the cartoon wasn't the issue.

The details of what happened are what's missing, yet people have come to conclusions and drawn battle lines.

Community members who have said and written that they won't tolerate violence or threats of violence are not being shown, neither are representatives who are shocked that division is being amplified rather than the calls to come together and have a calm and respectful discussion.

Seems some folk just want to inflame the situation and want the cartoon published by all and sundry, even though it appears it's a resource that been used for a couple of years. Wonder why that is?
I think someone without any background should be able to watch the news or look at the media sites and see what the fuss it about and make their own conclusions.

But I can't. Wonder why that is?
 

Roane

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I think someone without any background should be able to watch the news or look at the media sites and see what the fuss it about and make their own conclusions.

But I can't. Wonder why that is?
The detail is there. You could google it. After all how many prophet with a bomb for turban pics are there?

So you have a description, a link to the source wonder why you'd want every news source to print (reprint in some cases) the picture?

Generally folk would look into something to reach an informed conclusion, in this case the issue seems to be the teacher not the source material. So I've spent time researching and come to this conclusion.

Maybe I should have sat back, moaned and bitched that the information wasn't collated and dropped into my lap so I could be faux outraged
 

Roane

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Oh 100%, I can tell from how people write what they are about because writing takes thought and consideration to a certain degree which reflects qualities; there are super good people here. But why are the dumb minority always the loudest all the time. It's unfortunate.
Way of the world.

Interestingly there was a teacher, last year, in Belgium suspended for showing a caricature of the Prophet SAW in class after the Paty killing.

The president of the liberal MR party waded in with an I hope this isn't true...freedom of expression is non negotiable comment.

The mayor of the city had been quite clear the suspension wasn't due to showing a caricature of Muhammad but the fact that the picture had genitals showing and the class was under 10 years old.

She told the president that under no circumstances should you be showing children under 10 pictures of genitals. Proceedings were started against the teacher.

You still got people hearing the words Muhammad and cartoon going on about "yeah but freedom of speech" and "right to offend".
 

izzydiggler

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The detail is there. You could google it. After all how many prophet with a bomb for turban pics are there?

So you have a description, a link to the source wonder why you'd want every news source to print (reprint in some cases) the picture?

Generally folk would look into something to reach an informed conclusion, in this case the issue seems to be the teacher not the source material. So I've spent time researching and come to this conclusion.

Maybe I should have sat back, moaned and bitched that the information wasn't collated and dropped into my lap so I could be faux outraged
I should be able to watch the news or read a paper (also online) and see the 'news' as it is. The fact not a single outlet will show you what the fuss is about makes it a big issue IMO.

To be clear, I don't like the cartoons...I think they're pretty awful and (yes I know) I have Muslim friends but I still except news outlets to present the news.
 

iluvoursolskjær

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Way of the world.

Interestingly there was a teacher, last year, in Belgium suspended for showing a caricature of the Prophet SAW in class after the Paty killing.

The president of the liberal MR party waded in with an I hope this isn't true...freedom of expression is non negotiable comment.

The mayor of the city had been quite clear the suspension wasn't due to showing a caricature of Muhammad but the fact that the picture had genitals showing and the class was under 10 years old.

She told the president that under no circumstances should you be showing children under 10 pictures of genitals. Proceedings were started against the teacher.

You still got people hearing the words Muhammad and cartoon going on about "yeah but freedom of speech" and "right to offend".
What makes it worse is how genuine people concerned about civil liberties say nothing when bigots hijack the conversations. Hypocrites. What are your values worth when it only matters when affecting your own group.

Nothing for humanity.
 

Roane

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I should be able to watch the news or read a paper (also online) and see the 'news' as it is. The fact not a single outlet will show you what the fuss is about makes it a big issue IMO.

To be clear, I don't like the cartoons...I think they're pretty awful and (yes I know) I have Muslim friends but I still except news outlets to present the news.
Im more vexed that the news doesn't tell the true story.

The belgian teacher for example wasn't suspended and have proceedings started towards him due to showing a caricature of Muhammad , as the headlines suggested.

It was showing picture of genitals to10 year olds.

In the Batley case it was the teachers comments and attitude why he got suspended it seems, not the materialmas the headlines suggest.
 

Roane

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What makes it worse is how genuine people concerned about civil liberties say nothing when bigots hijack the conversations. Hypocrites. What are your values worth when it only matters when affecting your own group.

Nothing for humanity.
In the Belgian case the "online fury" was all about the "Islam is taking over". "Sack those who sacked the teacher" and no one focussing on the real reason for sacking. One person actually wrote that the image was disgusting to show young kids but she wanted to back the teacher.

A few months later in Belgium a female English teacher was sacked because she had starred in adult movies. The "fury" was all about we don't want filth like this in our schools. She argued it had nothing to do with her job now and not something she had highlighted but was forced to resign.
 

Carolina Red

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I am saying, I will ignore some stuff you said there but ask you this:

If something is meant to be taught, why is it not included in the curriculum?
And I am asking what are you talking about when you say “not included in the curriculum”..?

What isn’t included?
 

The Corinthian

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(Picking this up from earlier today.)

This is true for the last couple of years, although before that Jews were indeed a prime target of Jihadist terror. I don't think the lack of larger attacks after the mid-2010s means that Islamist antisemitism channeling into practical terror is called off for good, but rather that it's pushed back into a state of latency by several internal and external factors. (Like the defeat of al-Qaeda, the general focus on sectarian wars, improved surveillance and security...)
I disagree - it's backed up with stats. Most antisemitic attacks in the West has been by right winged loons. Not denying that there is antagonistic rhetoric from Muslims and Jews on these shores (mainly due to the political issues from Palestine & Israel), but in terms of that rhetoric leading into a physical, violent attack? It's a rarity.
 

calodo2003

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They absolutely were.

It was an absolute stupid mistake on my part how I wrote that.

My point wasn't related to the Nazis but that my teachers didnt show it to offend or ridicule us as students.

If you follow the conversation I was having with the poster hopefully you will see it wasn't meant the way it came across
Missed this post from you earlier. Totally believe now that the initial quote from you did not show how you actually feel. Appreciate the clarification.
 

calodo2003

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Somebody who makes a caricature about a known and obvious sensitive topic (prophet, Holocaust, etc.) is completely irresponsible.

The balance between risk (have some communities upset, protests) and return (make some intellectual hipsters smile) is ridiculous.
Isn’t the ability to teach young people more about their potential phobias & -isms & to have them learn from them as a return, a positive?

Teaching students about the actualities of life in which they will be fully immersed in the near future is essential.
 

2cents

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I disagree - it's backed up with stats. Most antisemitic attacks in the West has been by right winged loons. Not denying that there is antagonistic rhetoric from Muslims and Jews on these shores (mainly due to the political issues from Palestine & Israel), but in terms of that rhetoric leading into a physical, violent attack? It's a rarity.
Not directed at you in particular (it’s an issue running through a lot of CE threads), but generally speaking it would be useful if posters could provide links to sources when referencing something to support their case (I’m guilty of forgetting to do it often enough myself)
 
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Shamana

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Not directed at you in particular (it’s an issue running through a lot of CE threads), but generally speaking it would be useful if posters could provide links to sources when referencing something to support their case.
In general I take as a given, than when I for instance say that Jews are or have been a regular target of terrorism from islamic terrorism, i'm not saying that it comes exclusively or mostly from Islamic terrorism. Of course I am aware of the crimes comitted by Neo-Nazis and antisemites in general. People can fairly quickly read from after the 40's in which events who were the pepertrators and in what cause did they do it. It's bit of a long read, because it just lists all anti-semitic incidents not just the ones that lead to or attempted murder, violence, terror attacks. It seems most of the major attacks kicked of in 80's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism_in_the_20th_century#1950s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism_in_the_21st_century
 
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Synco

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I disagree - it's backed up with stats. Most antisemitic attacks in the West has been by right winged loons. Not denying that there is antagonistic rhetoric from Muslims and Jews on these shores (mainly due to the political issues from Palestine & Israel), but in terms of that rhetoric leading into a physical, violent attack? It's a rarity.
Sorry, but to me this shows near total ignorance of a serious problem.

I'm always at a loss at this point, because I could point to incidents and reports about everyday harrassment and violence, but I've rarely seen this go well. As I said to another poster, I have no interest in turning it into a contest if right wing or Islamist antisemitism is worse. Nothing good comes out of that. Both issues are real and dangerous, and while Nazis have taken the lead in deadly terrorism in recent years, a few years back it was reversed. Trends, regional distinctions, and other details can always be discussed, but the minimum requirement for a discussion would be that none of these issues is declared a myth.

In the end, this thread is about a different topic, and I've said my bit. If nothing extraordinary happens, I'll leave it at that.
 

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I've read all of this thread, and getting back to the actual issue my take is that the teacher was extremely unwise and insensitive to show these cartoons. I'd say the same if this was a school with no Muslim students. The fact that there's mostly Muslim students in this particular school should make it an even more obvious thing to avoid, as there is the potential to upset many students and parents.

I read that he warned the Muslim students that they might want to leave the classroom before he showed the cartoons - this isn't acceptable either.
I went to secondary school in the 1960s and 70s, and we had a large number of Jewish girls amongst the pupils. They were excluded from the religious part of the daily assembly, then they all came filing into the hall for the music and the announcements. That was also wrong, but it was over 50 years ago.

I don't know what this teacher's true intention was, as you can talk about censorship, blasphemy and other sensitive topics without displaying any pictures. You can simply say "vulgar cartoon drawings of the Prophet" and leave it at that, because that's what they are.
 

Ecstatic

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i think you are confusing two groups of people
writers and drawers are different people to teachers

writers and drawers should not have to be careful and cautious at all whatever the subject, be it drawing of mohamed, sex, nazis, morality in sport or whatever.
i honestly wish i had used a different historical example as you now seemed fixated on nazis

teachers should be careful to not damage their pupils, but should be free to discuss any subject. they should be able to bring in any legal reference to any subject. most aspects of most subjects will offend someone. its part of education. if its not part of education, then its not education, its indoctrination

i also didnt bring in carefullness, another poster (Ecstatic) did, i merely responded
Isn’t the ability to teach young people more about their potential phobias & -isms & to have them learn from them as a return, a positive?
Teaching students about the actualities of life in which they will be fully immersed in the near future is essential.
There is an infinite number of ways to teach a subject or convey a message in terms of writing and teaching.

I am just aware of the fact that people are not always receptive to hear something they don't want to hear, hence the necessity of having a communication adapted to the context and situation.

Audiences are generally predictable and communicators should not be self-centered: they have to be aware of the impact they may have on some people.

A good communicator will
(1) build a constructive dialogue with audiences, and
(2) find a way to avoid creating ennemies (complaining parents, hate on social media, potential protests, etc.) while doing the job he is supposed to do at the same time.
 

calodo2003

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There is an infinite number of ways to teach a subject or convey a message in terms of writing and teaching.

I am just aware of the fact that people are not always receptive to hear something they don't want to hear, hence the necessity of having a communication adapted to the context and situation.

Audiences are generally predictable and communicators should not be self-centered: they have to be aware of the impact they may have on some people.

A good communicator will
(1) build a constructive dialogue with audiences, and
(2) find a way to avoid creating ennemies (complaining parents, hate on social media, etc.) while doing the job he is supposed to do.
We see things quite similarly, it seems, & appreciate the reply. Just appears we differ on the value of showing blasphemy to better understand blasphemy & the adverse pressure that can be applied on educators.
 

The Corinthian

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Not directed at you in particular (it’s an issue running through a lot of CE threads), but generally speaking it would be useful if posters could provide links to sources when referencing something to support their case (I’m guilty of forgetting to do it often enough myself)
Sure - I'll PM you a couple of articles.

Sorry, but to me this shows near total ignorance of a serious problem.

I'm always at a loss at this point, because I could point to incidents and reports about everyday harrassment and violence, but I've rarely seen this go well. As I said to another poster, I have no interest in turning it into a contest if right wing or Islamist antisemitism is worse. Nothing good comes out of that. Both issues are real and dangerous, and while Nazis have taken the lead in deadly terrorism in recent years, a few years back it was reversed. Trends, regional distinctions, and other details can always be discussed, but the minimum requirement for a discussion would be that none of these issues is declared a myth.

In the end, this thread is about a different topic, and I've said my bit. If nothing extraordinary happens, I'll leave it at that.
We need to make a distinction between what is, as you term, everyday harassment and hate speech and actual physical violent attacks. My posts have been centred on actual violence and action against Jewish communities. Of course, both instances are abhorrent but one is clearly worse than the other.

Agree that this isn't the thread to discuss this topic, but you're misconstruing my post.
 

Carolina Red

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I read that he warned the Muslim students that they might want to leave the classroom before he showed the cartoons - this isn't acceptable either.
People opting their child out / a child choosing to opt out of an assignment or lecture is common practice here and part of their educational rights.
 

Synco

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We need to make a distinction between what is, as you term, everyday harassment and hate speech and actual physical violent attacks. My posts have been centred on actual violence and action against Jewish communities. Of course, both instances are abhorrent but one is clearly worse than the other.

Agree that this isn't the thread to discuss this topic, but you're misconstruing my post.
While I won't push the topic further, I have one correction to make: I said "everyday harassment and violence", not "everyday harassment and hate speech". As in attacks on the street for wearing a kippa or Star of David, and similar things.
 

Penna

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People opting their child out / a child choosing to opt out of an assignment or lecture is common practice here and part of their educational rights.
I understand that concept, but I think this is a bit different. He planned a lesson to include the cartoons, which meant that some kids had to be offered the chance to leave the room. He could have delivered the same lesson without showing them, and no-one would have had to leave the room.
 

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I understand that concept, but I think this is a bit different. He planned a lesson to include the cartoons, which meant that some kids had to be offered the chance to leave the room. He could have delivered the same lesson without showing them, and no-one would have had to leave the room.
What he did was no different to the way teachers/lecturers are encouraged to include trigger warning when covering sensitive topics in a class. If some of the students are likely to get distressed they get a warning in advance and can step outside. Seems like a much more sensible approach than trying to moderate your content to the extent it couldn’t ever possibly offend/distress anyone.
 

Carolina Red

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I understand that concept, but I think this is a bit different. He planned a lesson to include the cartoons, which meant that some kids had to be offered the chance to leave the room. He could have delivered the same lesson without showing them, and no-one would have had to leave the room.
And again... I’ve had to offer the same consideration to students every time I’ve shown something violent or controversial. I’m not going to not show those things as they are pertinent to the curriculum I am teaching and those students need to learn how to approach those topics in a civil way in a democratic society.

If the teacher acted unprofessionally while showing that content, fine, he gets what he gets and I support that. But the use of controversial material in class shouldn’t be discouraged just because it is controversial.
 

shamans

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And I am asking what are you talking about when you say “not included in the curriculum”..?

What isn’t included?
Whatever you teach, is it included in the curriculum? Is showing these cartoons included in the curriculum? You would have to be intellectually dishonest to admit these cartoons were or that children probably expected it.

You don't need to reply to me btw, I think your "stance" is pretty clear.
 

shamans

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And again... I’ve had to offer the same consideration to students every time I’ve shown something violent or controversial. I’m not going to not show those things as they are pertinent to the curriculum I am teaching and those students need to learn how to approach those topics in a civil way in a democratic society.

If the teacher acted unprofessionally while showing that content, fine, he gets what he gets and I support that. But the use of controversial material in class shouldn’t be discouraged just because it is controversial.
:lol: Champion of liberal values has now receded to "get with the system or get out". Also, is the right to protest suddenly now not civil and democratic? It's also very problematic the way you think here. What you think you should be able to do is not how a modern fair society works.

In a successful multicultural society, you respect every ethnicity and religious belief. Schooling is a mandatory thing and it's not a place to dive into potential your personal hot takes on what you think is the best way to teach, without taking into consideration your audience.

You can do it and marginalize further an already marginalized minority but then don't complain why they aren't "like us".

As I said earlier, there are countless university courses and subjects that students can sign up for that are all full of these cartoons and no one cares. That is different that shoving offense material into a students face in school where they have no choice.
 

shamans

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@Carolina Red the same guy who was leading the line with respect for immigrants crossing the southern border and how they are treated would have absolutely no regard for a, new immigrant, 15 year old from Yemen, who in his second school year at America is now looking at what he has learned to be the most offensive images possible. Why? Because dang it he better learn to discuss and if he can't discuss that's his problem not mine! How inclusive.
 

Carolina Red

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Whatever you teach, is it included in the curriculum? Is showing these cartoons included in the curriculum? You would have to be intellectually dishonest to admit these cartoons were or that children probably expected it.

You don't need to reply to me btw, I think your "stance" is pretty clear.
I literally said it is part of the curriculum. But hey, I guess you know more about the job than me.
 

Carolina Red

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@Carolina Red the same guy who was leading the line with respect for immigrants crossing the southern border and how they are treated would have absolutely no regard for a, new immigrant, 15 year old from Yemen, who in his second school year at America is now looking at what he has learned to be the most offensive images possible. Why? Because dang it he better learn to discuss and if he can't discuss that's his problem not mine! How inclusive.
Hey look, the guy going off half cocked has missed the whole part where I pointed out to @Penna that there are opt out rights.