Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match

‘Negro’ being derogatory in English depends on who you ask or speak to.

I don't disagree and would imagine the same criteria could be applied to the word black as it exists in the romantic languages and their sub-groups.

Just because some “esteemed” organisations use it doesn't mean its not by the way. Quite a few “esteemed” organisations still have racist roots, policies, and outcomes for their staff In the UK

Just pointing that out, not pointing figures or anything

For myself I was using esteemed non-ironically as the folks at the United Negro College Fund do some good work.
 
This part right here:



Just pointing out that the English 'negro' is still used, even by esteemed organizations like the UNCF. In this case, it's certainly not condescending or insulting. And it's certainly comparable as its use is in reference to people.

Now, I'm not familiar with Romanian as a language so I don't know if there are other words they could have used. Maybe he should have said the bald guy instead but I'm having trouble seeing the racism in this. We're again transcribing English meaning onto foreign words because of how they look/sound.
Actually, that's exactly what I meant, on all counts. :)

First, I have no idea about Romanian 'negru' either; I was just saying that, regardless of its meaning and connotations in Romanian, it will sound too much like similar words in other languages that sound bad.

Second, as for the UNCF - I made another post in which I mentioned how 'negro' was still a normal word for MLK in the 60s, but isn't anymore now. I looked up the UNCF, and as I expected, it's an old name, from 1944. Regarding its current use, its Wiki says this (link): "In 2008, reflecting shifting attitudes toward the word negro in its name, the UNCF shifted from using its full name to using only its initials, releasing a new logo with the initials alone and featuring their slogan more prominently." There is a lot more on that in this piece from the NYT. Here is the key quote from the UNCF's President and CEO at the time:

“Forty-plus years ago, when I started at Morehouse, I thought of myself as a Negro,” said Michael L. Lomax, U.N.C.F.’s president and chief executive, referring to the historically black college. “By the time I graduated in 1968, I was black. And then in the last 15 to 20 years I’ve become an African-American.”
 
Some people think everything is racist against them. If they hear the word starting with n, even though it's in different language and means no malicious intent at all, they will still cry it's racism. That's how it is.

Have you ever been in his shoes?

Particularly in the context of the official trying to get him sent off.
 
Some people think everything is racist against them. If they hear the word starting with n, even though it's in different language and means no malicious intent at all, they will still cry it's racism. That's how it is.
He didnt even cry racism for one. He asked why he said it. Secondly, people who you are describing are likely ones who have endured a high amount of racism in their lifetime. You should consider why they think how they think
 
Some people think everything is racist against them. If they hear the word starting with n, even though it's in different language and means no malicious intent at all, they will still cry it's racism. That's how it is.

Do you know anyone like that?
 
Honestly, for a referee it does sound very inappropriate in French. And it does in Dutch too btw.
If a ref would say 'die zwarte daar', i think that'd be unacceptable.
 
I don't disagree and would imagine the same criteria could be applied to the word black as it exists in the romantic languages and their sub-groups.



For myself I was using esteemed non-ironically as the folks at the United Negro College Fund do some good work.
Yeah I hear you and they do
 
He's speaking in Romanian.

He says "ala negru", which means "the black one". There is nothing racist about that.
Agreed, I live in Vegas and this is very common. Not considered racist at all but from the comments I guess it's not the same other places.
 
Exactly.

"Who drank the last bit of coffee out if the office machine?
"The black one"

I mean thats not really the same. If you are in an office environment and share the coffee machine with someone chances are you will know their name, therefore there is no need for the descriptor based on physical appearance. But if the 4th official said 'the black one' whilst pointing out the coaches its because he doesn't know his name and so it's the easiest thing to go by (if there's only one black person). I don't really see anything wrong with it. It's like saying 'the one with the tattoo' or 'the one who is bald', a physical descriptor when you don't know the name of the person which is easy to identify.
 
He didnt even cry racism for one. He asked why he said it. Secondly, people who you are describing are likely ones who have endured a high amount of racism in their lifetime. You should consider why they think how they think
Dove showing exactly what white privilege is all about. Having never experienced any kind of prejudice due to their own skin colour, so having a total inability to empathise with, and understand, the position of those being persecuted.
 
So I have no idea if there are any romanian speakers in here but...

The guy says "that guy there IN black". Meaning, that guy dressed in black over there.

I can't post the link to the audio as I can't post media.
 
I agree with this.

The official should apologize for being insensitive to other languages / cultures and concede that he understands this can be construed as rqcism and that he didnt mean it like that, but there should be some room for realizing that in some languages the word negru simply means black.

You can say something inadvertently racist without being one if you admit to your misstake and dont do it again if you ask me.
I think I would agree with this as well. If he just meant to say 'that black man there', then that's not good, but it's not quite KKK-level, deep-felt racism. You have to allow people to apologize and learn from mistakes as well.
 
Have you ever been in his shoes?

Particularly in the context of the official trying to get him sent off.

Do you know anyone like that?

This particular poster spent a while essentially denying that more subtle forms of racism exist and then when I told him I could see how my own kids of very different shades are treated differently, they essentially virtually shrugged their shoulders, said its a shame but its pretty much how people are and its difficult to root out racism.

Not sure there's much point.
 
Actually, that's exactly what I meant, on all counts. :)

First, I have no idea about Romanian 'negru' either; I was just saying that, regardless of its meaning and connotations in Romanian, it will sound too much like similar words in other languages that sound bad.

Second, as for the UNCF - I made another post in which I mentioned how 'negro' was still a normal word for MLK in the 60s, but isn't anymore now. I looked up the UNCF, and as I expected, it's an old name, from 1944. Regarding its current use, its Wiki says this (link): "In 2008, reflecting shifting attitudes toward the word negro in its name, the UNCF shifted from using its full name to using only its initials, releasing a new logo with the initials alone and featuring their slogan more prominently." There is a lot more on that in this piece from the NYT. Here is the key quote from the UNCF's President and CEO at the time:

They go by 'The Fund' mostly these days but I remember them from back in the 80s when they still used their full name. Good branding sticks in your mind.
 
Go and ask a black person if he’s happy for any group of black people to be described as “the blacks”. You’ll get your answer then.

As for calling me a snowflake, I would say grow up. Certain terms just aren’t helpful when tackling racism. I really hope you aren’t one of the all lives matter crowd.
Not. Racism. Just like it wouldn't be if @Pagh Wraith said the asians, the whites... Try not being too overly sensitive before giving me any tips. Won't even start about the rest.
 
Some people think everything is racist against them. If they hear the word starting with n, even though it's in different language and means no malicious intent at all, they will still cry it's racism. That's how it is.
Oh boy.
 
He says "ala in negru de acolo". Which means, "that guy in black over there".
 
If a ref would say 'die zwarte daar', i think that'd be unacceptable.

The more I think about the more it sounds unacceptable (or weird at least) in German as well. Though I still don't know how else I would have referred to him without using lengthy descriptions avoiding skin colour at all cost.
 
They go by 'The Fund' mostly these days but I remember them from back in the 80s when they still used their full name. Good branding sticks in your mind.
I must admit I thought that I had never heard of them, but apparently 'a mind is a terrible thing to waste' is their very own slogan! :)
 
Very unfurtunate selection of words by that officer and even worse the way they handled it.
 
I mean thats not really the same. If you are in an office environment and share the coffee machine with someone chances are you will know their name, therefore there is no need for the descriptor based on physical appearance. But if the 4th official said 'the black one' whilst pointing out the coaches its because he doesn't know his name and so it's the easiest thing to go by (if there's only one black person). I don't really see anything wrong with it. It's like saying 'the one with the tattoo' or 'the one who is bald', a physical descriptor when you don't know the name of the person which is easy to identify.

If I was your doctor and referred to you by such a descriptive term (that fat one, hairy one, black one, smelly one etc) whilst you were within earshot, how would you feel?

This guy isn't at a bar or on the street, he's at work, in a professional context.
 
The more I think about the more it sounds unacceptable (or weird at least) in German as well. Though I still don't know how else I would have referred to him without using lengthy descriptions avoiding skin colour at all cost.
Well - kinda paraphrasing what someone else said, even if it would have been a group of identically dressed identical quadruplets, you'd find a way to single out one of them.
 
Hope language isn’t going to be used as an excuse here. Just because it’s widespread there to say that in that context doesn’t mean it’s right.

Have seen a few on Twitter suggesting it’s just the way it’s done in Romania. That surely doesn’t fly?
 
The fact that you see the the most obvious way of identifying a person as "the black one" says a lot about you too buddy.
Ah the British hipocrisy!

I had an amusing situation at work years ago when my manager asked me where 'Chris was'. We had 3 Chris's on the team and one of them was black. He wanted to know where he was and after I said "which one?" he tried so hard to describe him in ways without saying "the black one".
Sure he should have done the same but it's a football match and not a five a side with friends at that. I don't think we can accuse someone of racism for that alone.

In Portuguese, a lot like Romanian, Negro is not derogatory in normal use.
 
If I was your doctor and referred to you by such a descriptive term (that fat one, hairy one, black one, smelly one etc) whilst you were within earshot, how would you feel?

This guy isn't at a bar or on the street, he's at work, in a professional context.

But again, the doctor should know the name of the patient obviously, so I would say the doctor should use the name of the patient. In some cases, like in the PSG game, the person doesn't know the name and so a physical descriptor is the easiest way around it. If there is one black person and everyone else is white, then it makes sense to use that. Also, if there is one white person and everyone else is black, the same thing applies. I don't see how it is racist.
 
Literally as bad as the ref.
No, it "literally" isn't. It's worse, actually. Far worse.

That poster is directly insulting the ref based on his heritage/nationality/ethnicity, whatever. The ref was pointing the player out based on his skin. Wrong but probably not intentionally insulting.

Putting "Romanian/Black/Irish/Asian cnut" in the same as wheelhouse as saying "The black guy/one" is ridiculous.
 
So if the 4th official didn't know his name or number or other personal information, how should he have referred to Pierre Webo?
 
Go and ask a black person if he’s happy for any group of black people to be described as “the blacks”. You’ll get your answer then.

As for calling me a snowflake, I would say grow up. Certain terms just aren’t helpful when tackling racism. I really hope you aren’t one of the all lives matter crowd.

Tbf, the social movement is called 'Black Lives Matter', using Black as a descriptor. It seems to be widely accepted in that context.
 
Not. Racism. Just like it wouldn't be if @Pagh Wraith said the asians, the whites... Try not being too overly sensitive before giving me any tips. Won't even start about the rest.
It is a fact that reducing it to just skin colour without the human aspect, and describing a group of people who are black as “the blacks” is derogatory. You thinking it isn’t, is racist in itself. Even the original poster explained English isn’t his first language and perhaps the wording was wrong. You’re on your own here.

In singular form it is also racist. Instead of saying “that black person over there” and saying “the black over there” or “that black over there”, this is racist. It is derogatory.

Thank you for not starting on about “the rest” since you’ve spared me hearing more of your ill-informed opinions.
 
But again, the doctor should know the name of the patient obviously, so I would say the doctor should use the name of the patient. In some cases, like in the PSG game, the person doesn't know the name and so a physical descriptor is the easiest way around it. If there is one black person and everyone else is white, then it makes sense to use that. Also, if there is one white person and everyone else is black, the same thing applies. I don't see how it is racist.

As @diarm has been pointing out, there wasn't just one black person on the bench.

And if you worked in a large office where you didn't know everyone and referred to someone you didn't know as "the black guy", you would be in trouble as it is clearly innapropriate. Not knowing someone's name doesn't make referring to them by the colour of their skin okay instead.
 
So if the 4th official didn't know his name or number or other personal information, how should he have referred to Pierre Webo?

The way he would have for anyone else? Third from the left, fifth from the right.
 
So if the 4th official didn't know his name or number or other personal information, how should he have referred to Pierre Webo?
Imagine they were all looking similarly. How would you point out one of them? That's what they should have done.
 
Referees embody fairness and sound judgement.

Reckless choice of words.