[Pogue Mahone]

Sigh.

Have your way, blame Rafael. He doesn't do anything wrong there, he tries to get back goalside of Vardy, who decides to throw himself into him and fall to the floor. That's not anywhere near a pen, it's as bad a dive as you'll ever see.

But I see you've decided to blame Rafael, so keep at it.

You're not even reading my posts now. I said it was a dive, I said it shouldn't have been a penalty.

But yes, Rafael could have dealt with the situation better than he did. I agree with Van Gaal on this one. You obviously don't. I can live with that.

 

[2mufc0]

Because of LVG's comments people are jumping on Rafa's back, the much larger error was made by the referee and i'm disappointed LVG didn't mention it rather than passing the buck to Rafa.

I'm all for taking responsibility but Clattenburg's decision was truly unexplainable and should be held accountable and should have been highlighted.

 

[Orton]

Van Gaal only commented on what he saw in real time, doubt he seen any replays on the incident.

 

[ZDwyr]

To be fair he played a key part in our third goal. His attacking play was lacking overall though.

That cross he whipped in was really good. Still cannot believe people are blaming him here. The need for a scapegoat on this forum is amazing.

 

[In Rainbows]

Exactly. He doesn't "throw himself" into Rafael. He moves his body between Rafael and the ball. Basic stuff. Where Rafael fecks up is when he puts his forearm into Varney's back. As soon as he felt that contact Varney threw himself on the ground. A blatant dive and never a penalty when you look at slow motion replays. In real time it looked worse, though, and it was a situation Rafael could have avoided if he'd been more careful where he put his arms.

He didn't put his forearm into Varney's back. He put his forearm to Varney's right arm, who then changes direction making his back face Rafa. Rafa at the same time puts his left hand up to show he's not doing anything and Varney then dives. The angle made it look like he put his forearm to Varney's back, but it didn't happen.

 

[Orton]

How do people expect Rafael to run? With his hands behind his back?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Van Gaal only commented on what he saw in real time, doubt he seen any replays on the incident.

Exactly! And the referee made his decision in real time.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

How do people expect Rafael to run? With his hands behind his back?

He raised his left arm to try and get past Varney. That's what triggered the dive and that's the contact which convinced Clattenburg it was a pen.

Can anyone dig out the reverse angle replay they showed on MOTD last night? You could see the forearm in Varney's back much more clearly in that one.

 

[Orton]

He raised his left arm to try and get past Varney. That's what triggered the dive and that's the contact which convinced Clattenburg it was a pen.

Can anyone dig out the reverse angle replay they showed on MOTD last night? You could see the forearm in Varney's back much more clearly in that one.

To me it looks as though he's using his arms to run faster, and Varny just moves in front of him to instigate the most obvious dive ever. Diving 101, go infront of player and fall.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

To me it looks as though he's using his arms to run faster, and Varny just moves in front of him to instigate the most obvious dive ever. Diving 101, go infront of player and fall.

It was definitely a dive.

Re Rafael's arm. He raised it up to try and muscle his way past Varley, who went down like a sack of shit the moment he was touched. Like I said, the reverse angle shows it better. Without the raised arm, the incident would never have happened. If you put your arms on someone in the box, there's always a risk of something bad happening.

 

[RedStarUnited]

LVG had not seen the replay when he was about the incident. I am sure when he watches it back with Rafa he will see that Rafael barely did anything wrong. What I didn't understand was G. Souness reaction in the studio. Kept saying how Rafa made a "Stupid, stupid mistake". I switched off the TV after that.

 

[Getsme]

How anyone can blame him for that is beyond me, what was he supposed to do, give him a free run at goal?
He didnt touch him, Vardy jumped in fromt of him, he should have been booked for diving. Clattenburg had it in his head that Rafael was going to retaliate after not being awarded the foul, as soon as Vardy went down Clattenburg saw his chance and couldnt wait to blow the whistle. The only surprise was he wasnt sent off.

 

[Massive Spanner]

How anyone can blame him for that is beyond me, what was he supposed to do, give him a free run at goal?
He didnt touch him, Vardy jumped in fromt of him, he should have been booked for diving. Clattenburg had it in his head that Rafael was going to retaliate after not being awarded the foul, as soon as Vardy went down Clattenburg saw his chance and couldnt wait to blow the whistle.

Blackett was there to cover. I really don't think much would have come of it.

 

[Getsme]

Blackett was there to cover. I really don't think much would have come of it.

Indeed he was. However he still had to do his defensive job and try put pressure on Vardy, he didnt tackle, block or trip him, in fact I dont think he touched Vardy.
The ref was conned far to easily by Vardy who knew exactly what he was doing, a professional referee should not be tricked like that.

 

[ChrisNelson]

Absolute bollocks.

He was assaulted off the ball and did the right thing by getting up and getting back to his man when the whistle didn't go, it was his job to get around Varney and goal side of him. He didn't "charge him in the back", he ran around him and as soon as he was even close Varney folded like a deck of cards, cheating the ref to a Pen and Clattenberg couldn't have blown quicker.

I never said he charged him in the back, I said he charged after him. There is a difference. There was a noteable aggression in the way he went after Vardy, like he'd been wronged and was out to get revenge. There might not have been a lot, if anything, in his challenge on Vardy but you could tell as soon as he was back on his feet he was going to give away a penalty somehow. Such indiscipline I can't recall seeing in any other Premier League fullback, certainly not ones that have played as many games as Rafael. The guy just isn't good enough as far as I'm concerned.

 

[FacerTheRed]

I said to my dad as soon as we didn't get the free kick for the push on Rafael, 'he's going to push him back and concede a penalty'. 5 seconds later, you know the rest.

It's come to the point where you know what's coming, the indiscipline he shows week after week is shocking. I'm not just talking about yesterday although it did annoy me a lot because the way he charged after Vardy it was so predictable what was going to happen.
He can no longer blame youth or inexperience, he's been at United a long time and failed to learn. I would be looking for a buyer in January if I was in charge.

Sorry mate but you're wrong. Rafael has matured so much to when he first joined United. He's still an aggressive player which is vital in his game considering he's not the biggest player, but over the years Rafael has learned when to leap into challenges or not and its been awhile since he's done a rash challenge. During Bayern Munich game last year, one of the best wingers in the world Ribery struggled get through him and pulled off terrific tackles and Ribery started getting angry with him.

Anyways back to the subject, first off Rafael was fouled but he did looked frustrated when not given the foul, so he did rushed up to his feet but he tried to get in front of Vardy. Soon Vardy felt his presence and Rafael started shoulder barging him and being aggressive, he went down like a sack of spuds. Rafael wasnt at fault, just got cheated out which unfortunately is apart of the game. Throughout the game Rafael was doing really well, thats why most of the attack was coming from the left side as Rojo was struggling. At the end of the day, there was no leadership in that backfour. The real game changer came when Evans, the only experience centre back who has leadership qualities came off from injury and was left with Smalling... The back four just then fell apart and no one to pull it back because there was no voice.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Just to add some positivity to the thread, his cross that led up to the Hererra goal was different class.

 

[Getsme]

Just to add some positivity to the thread, his cross that led up to the Hererra goal was different class.

I think his performance in general was good considering it was only his second game of the season.

 

[bishblaize]

You're not even reading my posts now. I said it was a dive, I said it shouldn't have been a penalty.

But yes, Rafael could have dealt with the situation better than he did. I agree with Van Gaal on this one. You obviously don't. I can live with that.

The last thing in the world I want is for Rafael to think its fine to do the same thing next time he's in the same situation. At the very least I want him to recognise that he's making it easy for punks to dive on him.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I'm still of the opinion that Rafael's an absolute world-beater waiting to happen if he sorts out his rashness and injury issues. Thinking both of those things will actually come to fruition is hopeful, to say the least.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm still of the opinion that Rafael's an absolute world-beater waiting to happen if he sorts out his rashness and injury issues. Thinking both of those things will actually come to fruition is hopeful, to say the least.

It's more than a little concerning that you could say the exact same thing about three of our arguably first-choice back four.

 

[Getsme]

I'm still of the opinion that Rafael's an absolute world-beater waiting to happen if he sorts out his rashness and injury issues. Thinking both of those things will actually come to fruition is hopeful, to say the least.

And with Shaw on the other side we could be sorted in that area of the pitch for years to come, we aren’t as bad off in defence as we have been lead to be believe.

 

[Massive Spanner]

It's more than a little concerning that you could say the exact same thing about three of our arguably first-choice back four.

I assume the other two are Shaw and Jones?

I remain really hopeful with Jones, too, he's just been another unfortunate youngster that we brought in and decided to use completely out of position for the most part, a recurring trend lately it seems. Funnily enough with him his injuries are usually down to his bloody rashness so if he sorts that aspect out he should be alright. Rafael on the other hand just seems to be made of glass at times. I'm still holding out hope that one day all these talented youngsters will just 'click' and we'll suddenly have a great back four at our disposal, but I think that's a while away yet.

 

[Sir A1ex]

What was he meant to do? Don't be silly. Like I said, poor decision by the ref, but that doesn't give Rafael the right to get up and make the same mistake. Two wrongs do not make a right. Rafael retaliated and we got punished. Simple!

Retaliated? WTF?

That's insane... trying to defend your goal is retaliation now?!

He didn't foul him, so I ask again, what would you rather he had done?

 

[Getsme]

It's more than a little concerning that you could say the exact same thing about three of our arguably first-choice back four.

Agree with this, having a consistent back four was something Fergie was lucky to have for the majority of his United career. So far Moyes and van Gaal have not had that luxury, if we can get the injuries under control and get a settled back four, I truly believe we will be fine in that area.
Think about it, Rafael, two of Jones, Evans, Rojo or Smalling with Shaw on the left, not that bad is it

 

[Adam-Utd]

Vardy bought the pen by throwing himself into Rafael and then hitting the floor.

The thing that massively pisses me off is the inconsistency. First of all Clattenburg decides that Prison rules football is acceptable, and then a push 100x weaker get's called literally 5 seconds after the first. How can the standard change so dramatically?, I would absolutely love to hear the reasoning behind his decisions. If he think's the shoulder barge on Rafael was just "showing strength", then what was the challenge on Vardy?.

I feel really bad for Rafael as he just keeps getting tarred with the same brush. People that think he is rash and stupid will use it as another excuse, but anybody with a brain can see it was never a penalty.

Just compare that to Diego Costa's foul on Dzeko that Atkinson was happy to laugh off, he was literally hanging onto him trying to swipe the ball away. Football is a brilliant sport, but when things vary this badly it is very frustrating.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I assume the other two are Shaw and Jones?

I remain really hopeful with Jones, too, he's just been another unfortunate youngster that we brought in and decided to use completely out of position for the most part, a recurring trend lately it seems. Funnily enough with him his injuries are usually down to his bloody rashness so if he sorts that aspect out he should be alright. Rafael on the other hand just seems to be made of glass at times. I'm still holding out hope that one day all these talented youngsters will just 'click' and we'll suddenly have a great back four at our disposal, but I think that's a while away yet.

I was thinking about Evans and Jones actually. Arguably Smalling too, although he's more lack of concentration and injuries, rather than the rashness injury/combo.

I hope Shaw isn't prone to either rashness or injuries. At Soton he was very solid and almost never injured.

 

[EverReddy]

Vardy bought the pen by throwing himself into Rafael and then hitting the floor.

The thing that massively pisses me off is the inconsistency. First of all Clattenburg decides that Prison rules football is acceptable, and then a push 100x weaker get's called literally 5 seconds after the first. How can the standard change so dramatically?

Clattenberg is an egotist who likes to make eye-catching decisions. If he sends off a United player it creates a fuss. He's got a history of doing so. Rafael was an easy target. Shit decision, made to portray himself as The Big Man.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I was thinking about Evans and Jones actually. Arguably Smalling too, although he's more lack of concentration and injuries, rather than the rashness injury/combo.

I hope Shaw isn't prone to either rashness or injuries. At Soton he was very solid and almost never injured.

Yeah you're right about Shaw actually, I just assumed you were including him in the potentially world class bracket. I'm a fan of Evans but he'll never be at that level for me, a very good player but never likely to be an especially great one. Nor Smalling really. I'm more so hoping we've found a gem in Rojo than anything. It would be a good start if we, you know, played him in the fecking middle of the defense.

 

[Getsme]

Yeah you're right about Shaw actually, I just assumed you were including him in the potentially world class bracket. I'm a fan of Evans but he'll never be at that level for me, a very good player but never likely to be an especially great one. Nor Smalling really. I'm more so hoping we've found a gem in Rojo than anything. It would be a good start if we, you know, played him in the fecking middle of the defense.

I can honestly say I've never seen Rojo play in the centre of defence, I'm hoping come the weekend we will see how good he can be there against a physcial West Ham side. All our hopes seemed to be pinned on him being a success in there.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Rafael did not foul Vardy. Vardy started going down before Rafael even caught up with him and dived across his path. Secondly he would have also been slated if he didn't start chasing after Vardy. Vardy knew exactly what he was doing, he had a few yards start and could easily have outsprinted Rafael but he conned the referee. Nothing more , nothing less

 

[footballgirl07]

Not sure if this is true but shows the isolation he had yesterday.

I do find it confusing that some forum members are basically saying you shouldn't track back for fear of the opposition player diving. How is that Rafa's fault?! You can't stop playing for fear that someone will cheat.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not sure if this is true but shows the isolation he had yesterday.

In Vardy's post match interview he said that Leicester had been briefed to exploit all that space before the game. That graphic perfectly illustrates the acres of room behind our fullbacks for Leicester to run into. After conceding two or three goals in very similar fashion, you'd have hoped that the penny would drop and we'd do something to shore up our flanks. What's that they say about the definition of idiocy?

 

[Orton]

244

Said during the game that Blind was playing too high up and we were getting far too exposed with long balls into their strikers. It happened the whole of the first half and obviously killed us in the 2nd.

 

[footballgirl07]

In Vardy's post match interview he said that Leicester had been briefed to exploit all that space before the game. That graphic perfectly illustrates the acres of room behind our fullbacks for Leicester to run into. After conceding two or three goals in very similar fashion, you'd have hoped that the penny would drop and we'd do something to shore up our flanks. What's that they say about the definition of idiocy?

Exactly. I know the defenders are getting most of the flack but ultimately as a unit, we were poor and nothing was changed to combat that. Plus having 3 of very much the same players (Rooney, Falcao &RVP) playing in the same space, is leaving us exposed in those areas we looked poor in.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Exactly. I know the defenders are getting most of the flack but ultimately as a unit, we were poor and nothing was changed to combat that. Plus having 3 of very much the same players (RVP, Falcao &RVP) playing in the same space, is leaving us exposed in those areas we looked poor in.

I know. Crazy. Two of those players are more or less identical!

 

[footballgirl07]

I know. Crazy. Two of those players are more or less identical!

They were all playing the same space, easy to think there was two RVP's out there

 

[hundred_trillion]

It's probably worth remembering that those average positions look extremely similar to the ones vs QPR and will definitely look similar to a few games we win comfortably this season. It's not an inherently bad shape. We should have reacted better tactically after 3-2, though.

 

[dwd]

Anyone else feel that if he had stayed down when Vardy shoulder checked him that we might have been given a free kick for it? I'm not blaming him for getting straight back up and getting on with it but maybe that effected Clattenfeck's thinking?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Anyone else feel that if he had stayed down when Vardy shoulder checked him that we might have been given a free kick for it? I'm not blaming him for getting straight back up and getting on with it but maybe that effected Clattenfeck's thinking?

Very similar to Lahm getting shoved in the back by Podolski when Arsenal played Bayern last season. Staying down didn't do him any favours.