Spot on.
Rashford is as good as Mbappé...
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I don't think many people have been doing this, he's been praised for being probably the best young player out there atm and i don't think that's disputable really.
Not really, like I would understand the Coutinho thing i.e. Liverpool player but the underrating of many talents coming through for other teams (since Martial/Rashford came on the scene) does to me seem like a recent phenomenon which I haven't detected as much from fans of other clubs and I do visit other fan sites from time to time, and even talking to non-United supporting friends.Yeah English and United players only get overrated. There's definitely no underrating/dismissing of them at all on the caf.
And there's nothing "especially precious" about United fans. That's a bizarre thing to say. It's probbaly because you spend so much time of a United forum and get more involved in arguments on these topics that they become more obvious and relevant to you so as to draw such broad (and wrong) generalisations. Also, hatred for Coutinho?! I wonder why that would be
Having Rashford and Martial come through has made United fans (obviously not all) but quite a few, pretty over-defensive about the quality of our own talents by belittling the talent of other players. It is like it will kill us to pay a compliment to an opponent.
I think because we have signed and have alot of polemic players in the squad, i.e. Pogba, Lukaku, Herrera, Rashford, Martial - these are all players which had question marks over them yet are on the verge of/if not already top players so draw alot of attention, and in some cases were having direct comparisons made about them with rival opponent players and it is leading to an over sensitivity amongst our fans.
when you put it like that, its hard to disagree and you cannot discount home bias.
Really enjoy it when Marcus scores though!
Definitely many people have been doing this. He's supposedly been wrecking/dominating defence after defence, or carrying his team to glory. He looks a fine young player but people need to calm down a bit.
Dembele was considered the best for a bit. Martial was considered the best awhile back. Some still think it's Asensio. It's largely irrelevant. What matters is where they end up.
Where has this been said? again, I only recall one poster saying he was wrecking teams. Have you actually read the posts in question for yourself?
Have you seen the Demebele thread? Nothing but praise for him. It's probably because people haven't gone ballistic about him whereas the hype about Mbappe has gotten a tad ridiculous.
And I don't see this phenomenon at all that you state. There's as much of people being defensive/overrating our talents as there are demeaning/underrating them. That's simply the nature of a very popular forum. Are you telling me City fans dont see Sane as top talent? Madrid fans dont see Asensio as a top talent?
Whilst i agree with the bolded bit but this whole thread is about who is better right now.
Have you? Wrecking was one of the ones I mentioned.
You're obviously taking everything extremely literally.
Come on @2mufc0, you know full well that your post only made sense if you thought that professional footballers voted for the award. Otherwise, well feck, I'm a professional so my redcafe opinion matters just as much.
And while that's true, it's worth mentioning that the comparison right now (between any of these young players) is not definitive of who the best player will be.
Like I said, I think Mbappe is definitely better at the moment, but all these young players have a long journey.
Your post conveyed the impression of someone who has just assumed that the general theme of the thread is people saying he has been wrecking teams, dominating teams and 'carrying'.. a phrase which I myself used but in a different context.
The fact you chose to quote that, proved you didn't read my posts and just assumed I had written he was single-handledly carrying Monaco to glory which was not what I was trying to say at all. I said by the end of the season, he was becoming their leader on the pitch, the go to man - which he was, and that in of itself was impressive considering the nature of the games he was playing in. He has also seamlessly slotted into the French NT first XI which considering how difficult Deschamps can be, is impressive in of itself.
I think it is you that has taken everything literally without reading peoples posts, yes some people have over-hyped him, but many more have written rational opinions on where they see him at right now.
The hype about Mbappe - it is natural that people would compare him with the greats of previous generation because he is the current best youngster in the world. Whether he deserves to be seen in that category will be determined by his subsequent career, but the debate of course needs to be had because what he is achieving at this tender age in europe is unprecedented but of course it doesn't mean he will go on to maintain or surpass his current level and become the new Messi/Ronaldo etc.. but the debate is worth having.
This exactly. Some people are acting as if Mbappe being considered the best young talent is something rare and reserved to him when that has happened to other young players recently.
Like you mentioned just over a year back there were a lot of noises about Dembele than you go 2 years back Martial was considered the best young talent in the world and even won a golden ball. The both of them were talented enough to be regarded as the best talent in their age group, Mbappe currently being considered the best young talent doesn't mean he's some kind of otherworldly talent compared to the former mentioned or he's done something unprecedented. All this means so far, is that it's his turn to feast on the hype, it's nothing new.
What makes Mbappe ridiculously overrated as I've mentioned countless times already is that some want to put him in a bracket where he's supposedly so far ahead other young talents who recently came before him which is complete nonsense. He's shown nothing to be labelled and given such praise compared to similarly talented youngsters, his reputation is being inflated through media, social media hypes.
You watch the kid play and scratch your head wondering why would people even for a second claim that he's doing things beyond other talented kids who came before him. One would think we're talking about a young R9 who could score 44 goals in 47 as a 16 years old in Brazil or 54 goals in 58 in the Dutch league at 18 or 47 in 49 games as a 19/20 years old at Barcelona.
While Rashford himself tend to get overrated around these boards(that's right he quite is, heck some people have claimed that he carried us in the Europa league due to him scoring in both semi finals) and he isn't quite Mbappe's level, even talent wise, the way Mbappe is overrated makes Rashford Caf overhyping of him looks like child's play. This guy being talked in the same context as the likes of young Messi, R9 and likening what he's currently doing to what those 2 could do is absolute insanity
Professional coaches, captains and journalists. Not sure where you are going with this, none of us are getting paid for our football opinions on here so no we aren't professionals.
Rashford got everything to make it just as Mbappe plus the lad has no ego and a cracking manager to lead him, so there's really not many things going against him, at the moment.
Would love to see Mbappe playing in unbalanced United side from season ago. I can almost tell for sure, he would have difficulties the same way Pogba had, a player with a huge amount of talent & football skill.
Would love to see Mbappe playing in unbalanced United side from season ago. I can almost tell for sure, he would have difficulties the same way Pogba had, a player with a huge amount of talent & football skill.
All you've written has nothing to do with the point I made. My post was in response to people moaning about how if Rashford was at another club we'd be raving about him. But for me I feel the only reason we're raving about him is because he's here. United fans are the only people in the world who could be arguing about Rashford being as good as Mbappe. Yeah, we fecking overrate our players, were you here in the Welbeck era? As for me creaming myself over Sanchez I had barely watched him then, still haven't watched him now, so had no opinion about him. If he was hyped it was probably because he had shown something for a period of time that convinced people he'll be a star. That he has failed to step up doesn't mean people were hallucinating. It has happened to a lot of young players, can even happen to Mbappe or your darling Rashford. Nobody knows what anybody will be in the future, but based on the now and recent past, which every football fan makes judgement on, Mbappe, at least in the eyes of every non red tinted United fan, is the better player and is hyped(or overhyped) accordingly. If Rashford were at PSG putting in the same performances Mbappe is you think we'll be saying he's shit because his name isn't Rashfordinho or something? Or are you implying that the rest of the world who think Mbappe is the better player are just zombies who can't form an opinion and think he awesome because the media told them so? Or you feel if Rashford were at say Arsenal we'd currently have a fecking thread about him arguing that he's as good as that PSG lad everyone is raving about? Mbappe and even Dembele are definitely overhyped no doubt, same the way United fans overhype our homegrown players to the point of silliness, happens all the time and didn't start today.
No one is belittling Rashford here. Everyone is in agreement that Rashford is a very good talent. The actual scale of the talent that is what people are differing on. Let us first wait and see if Rashford can replicate Mbappe level performances in the Champions League, before we put them on the same pedestal. Regarding the accusation that the people backing Mbappe in the debate haven't actaully watched him play, is a bit unfair. Personally I watched a lot of Monaco's games in the Champions League and a few Ligue 1 games right at the business end. And I did get the feeling of an elite level talent. He is by far the most 'polished' 18 year old I have seen. I am sticking to my opinion @noodlehair Regarding the Messi comparision. Is it actually fair? Messi is the greatest footballing talent in history. No other player comes close. So apologies if my standards of 'wrecking' an opposition isn't on that scale. Also so many pedants latching onto my using the word 'wreck', atleast address the points raised and not get hung up on a single word. English isn't my first language after all.
Exaclty my point @2mufc0, it’s not mate, it’s done by journos only. No captains, no professional coaches.
I will however say that I’d have expected Mbappe to be included in the list even if it was a player’s player award. The CL weighs heavily, then comes domestic league success in Italy, Spain & England. Having just a good domestic cup or Europa League run really does count you out.
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Would this be the same list where everyone on it apart from Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar is basically a token gesture? It's also compiled by journalists and the like...the kind of people who this time last year were telling you John Stones was the best young defender ever seen.
It also has David De Gea on it and he has not even been our best player over the past calendar year, so I'm not sure why it would qualify as a basis to use to be sarcastic about anything.
The same journos hyped the shit out of Renato Sanchez enough to win him the Golden Boy award and told us what a massive loss it was for us missing out on him. Hell, half of the forum seemed to think we got the shitter deal with Pobga.
This does happen to a degree, but I had a quick browse of a few posts in here and what prompted me to reply initially, was more than one person exaggerating what Mbappe had done last and this season, and his abilities, to the point of absolute stupidity. All just to try and emphasise some point about belittling people for comparing Rashford to him. As if Mbappe, an 18 year old who's barely been around for a year, is now some kind of unreachable benchmark for any young player. This whole argument and idea is beyond any form of sense.
Why there was a need to compare Rashford to him in the first place I'm not sure, because again this suggests Mbappe is now THE young player, ever, and everything has to be compared to him. When you break it down this is based on so little that people are having to spout absolute stupid nonsense to try and justify it one way or the other. You are talking about a similar time frame in which you could have asked people about Januzaj and they would have still told you he as the next big thing.
The simple fact is that it is a completely pointless argument. It is impossible to prove or measure except by guessing, and it is not at all relevant anyway. Mbappe and Rashford are not sporting rivals, they are not fighting for a spot in the same team. They do not even play in the same league as each other. Even if there were rivals, it would still be barely relevant. If you had asked people, who was more talented out of Rooney or Ronaldo, when they were in their teens...what would most people have said? If it was now and you said Ronaldo, you'd have people aggressively mocking you.
There's all kinds of silliness on this forum and always has been. People used to pretend Ruud was better than Henry. There was a fad of pretending every no10 type player out there was the greatest player on earth, resulting in hero worship of spineless players like Ozil. Bizarre belief that signing Mata would for some reason solve all of our problems in every other area of the pitch, etc.
More recently it seems to be this whole pretending to be experts about a certain player or individual, but only being able to do so by exaggerating how good they are or making things up that aren't measurable, due to not actually being an expert about them (manly because this isn't really actually possible)...this led to us having to suffer people still defending Van Gaal LONG after any reasonable doubt as to whether he was an idiot had evaporated. Claims that Mourinho had a vendetta against Mhikitaryan, because people had decided to inform us all that he'd win us games on his own, and then couldn't accept the idea he wasn't playing because he wasn't ready to play yet. Now it's manifesting itself in some need people have to be experts about who's the better young player, instead of using basic common sense. There was some thread recently asking people to "rate" youth players of the world in order, which I just thought was hilarious. As if there is any person on the planet who has even seen enough of all of these players to begin to think about actually being able to do so accurately, even if that were possible.
You are talking about an 18 and a 19 year old. One has barely had a year of first team football. Both of whom are well ahead of where they should be at this stage of their career, which in itself makes judgement difficult.
Take Martial who is only a year ahead. He's already gone from "who?" to being the next Henry, to being a waste of space, to being amazing again. Because people don't have the patience to wait and see and not pretend they already know. The list of players people used to compare Ronaldo unfavourably to includes the likes of Reyes, Damien Duff and Ryan Babble. I guess it is nothing new but it is so dumb.
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Sentiments aside, I'd take Mbappe over Rashford without blinking but that it doesn't mean that the later is a bad player in the slightest.
Ah I see what this is about. You're getting defensive about a post of yours. My post wasn't actually aimed directly and solely at you. It's after reading posts from the last few months on this forum. Your role in that post was merely limited to one word. The post had more to do with other posts than yours.
I read the other day he's potentially the greatest player of all time. That's laughable given how little we've seen of him and how much of what we've seen of him has been in the French league. Albiet what we've seen of him has been terrific. There are many other examples. Yes, some people are rational about him, but some are also over eager to over reach in their opinions about him. The difference is that you don't mind it, and I do.
Yep, agree with that. Knew I couldn't disagree with Noodle for long.
@amolbhatia50k
Funnily enough, I went in to this thread with the intention of criticising those who were over-hyping him. CAF has a way of fecking with ones head.
The absurdity of this thread is no one is saying Rashford is better. Its just a general comment that they're both talented 18 year olds with very little between them in terms of what they have demonstrated so far.
I like both players.
Just the feeling that M'bappé and Rashford still lack the killer instinct: they have to more aggressive in order to reach their full potential.
An interesting benchmark would be Thierry Henry between 17 and 20 years old:
At a similar age, some did consider Ahmed Hossam "Mido" (1983) as a better player than Zlatan (1981) at AJAX... and you know what then happened.
Recipe for long-term success should be something like
Talent
+ Football IQ
+ Professionalism: rest, recuperation, no alcohol, diet...
+ Hatred for defeat: aggressive, winning mentality...
+ Luck: no injuries, right career choices...
= Golden Boy
Just the feeling that M'bappé and Rashford still lack the killer instinct: they have to more aggressive in order to reach their full potential.
An interesting benchmark would be Thierry Henry between 17 and 20 years old:
At a similar age, some did consider Ahmed Hossam "Mido" (1983) as a better player than Zlatan (1981) at AJAX... and you know what then happened.
Recipe for long-term success should be something like
Talent
+ Football IQ
+ Professionalism: rest, recuperation, no alcohol, diet...
+ Hatred for defeat: aggressive, winning mentality...
+ Luck: no injuries, right career choices...
= Golden Boy
That it does
You sure?
As I recall, there used to be debates on this forum whether players, captains and coaches should be allowed to vote on the Ballon D'or. Among the major issues raised were, that players used to vote for their favorites and teammates. And then there were people who'd randomly vote for washed up players like Gerrard when Messi and Ronaldo were going strong. Journalists were widely seen as impartial and more informed.
When Rashford had Mbappe's age he was playing at EURO 2016 less than four months into his career. When I look at that French league... Rashford would score at least 35 goals per season there. This discussion will only have a good comparison basis when Mbappe moves to a stronger league. Rashford is bigger, stronger and faster even if Mbappe might be more skillful. In short, i find Rashford more likely to be the one who ends Messi and Ronaldo's reign in the goals scored per season area.
Do you by any chance have numbers for the lottery too?
FFS man
First of all Rashford hasn't shown that he's clinical enough to start putting those numbers even in a weaker league.
And Rashford is actually not even bigger than Mbappe, it's also arguable that he's stronger.
Mbappe is not only more skillful than Rashford but also more clinical. So it's a wonder where you drew this conclusion about Rashford easily out scoring Mbappe if he were playing in the French league.
In short Rashford hasn't proven to be a phenomenal goal scorer for him to be more likely to replace Messi and Ronaldo in goal scored per season. Mbappe is more likely to do so which so far I don't believe he could. Though if we're strictly speaking about the French league and he's given the main striker role in that dominant PSG team compared to the rest of the league, I can actually envision that.
Good points overall. One league is obviously significantly stronger than the other. We need not look any further than Zlatan's success in France two seasons ago compared with what he did for us last year. Even if you factor in the handful of missed games towards the end of last year, he managed 28 goals in all comps, which is pretty good in England and precisely what Aguero, the best striker in the league since 2010 has averaged since he joined City, and is roughly the same as what Harry Kane has averaged at Spurs for the past three seasons. Compare that with the 50 goals he knocked in as a 34 year old in France last year and its easy to see that its significantly more difficult to score consistently in England than in France. And if anyone thinks Zlatan's 50 goals was a one off, Cavani managed 49 in Ibra's absence last year. Therefore Mbappe's goal tally in France has to be taken with a healthy pinch of salt. That's not taking anything away from him, but I think we can safely say his numbers would be cut by at least 1/3 to 1/2 if he was playing for a big club in England, where he had to fight for his place along side players like Ibrahimovic, Martial, and Lukaku.
I said what I think. Marcus would tear that league apart easily
That conclusion came from Rashford work rate and the fact that he scored most of the goals of his career playing from the wings in a stronger league . Since his prefered position is in the middle, it's reasonable to assume that playing as an actual striker, he would score more. With the work rate, even if he isn't as clinical as mbappe, he can score as many as he misses.FFS man
First of all Rashford hasn't shown that he's clinical enough to start putting those numbers even in a weaker league.
And Rashford is actually not even bigger than Mbappe, it's also arguable that he's stronger.
Mbappe is not only more skillful than Rashford but also more clinical. So it's a wonder where you drew this conclusion about Rashford easily out scoring Mbappe if he were playing in the French league.
In short Rashford hasn't proven to be a phenomenal goal scorer for him to be more likely to replace Messi and Ronaldo in goal scored per season. Mbappe is more likely to do so which so far I don't believe he could. Though if we're strictly speaking about the French league and he's given the main striker role in that dominant PSG team compared to the rest of the league, I can actually envision that.
I think Rashford will go on to break all Ronaldo and Messi records, may as well be the first player to get a century goals in a season.
That's why I said earlier that Mbappe would be fortunate to become 3/4 what Henry became. That wasn't in any way a slight - just an acknowledgment of Henry's greatness. The great ones have that certain psychological and mental edge that many of the teenage flash in the pans don't. Let's see how these two fare in that regard.
Yeah, you're on point. Assuming Rashford stays at United for an extended period of time, by the time Mbappe moved to the PL (If that happens) Rashford would likely be fully adapted and at least close to being the top scorer while Mbappe would likely have to go through an adaptation period. If Rashford moved to france, that period would likely be smaller. I think the best way to compare the two is through their performances in the champions league and international level. As Rashford is just starting his champions league career, we do not have enough basis to compare that yet. At international level, so far Rashford has been better, but it's debatable.
I fully agree.
A perfect case of study is the comparison Henry-Anelka-Trezeguet. Same age. Trezeguet & Henry reached their full potential, which isn't the case of Anelka who was probably the most talented in the youth teams. Trezeguet never won the Champions League. Anelka never won the World Cup. Henry won everything.
Malaysia 1997 World Youth Cup: Anelka 18 yo, Trezeguet/Henry 19 yo
EURO 2000
2005
Another great case study on the mental game is Ronaldo and Quaresma. Both considered comparably talented back in 2002, in fact I recall a few posters here talking up Quaresma as being the more promising of the two. We all know what happened next. One is one of the greatest players ever whilst the other was became known as a trivela specialist.I fully agree.
A perfect case of study is the comparison Henry-Anelka-Trezeguet. Same age. Trezeguet & Henry reached their full potential, which isn't the case of Anelka who was probably the most talented in the youth teams. Trezeguet never won the Champions League. Anelka never won the World Cup. Henry won everything.
Malaysia 1997 World Youth Cup: Anelka 18 yo, Trezeguet/Henry 19 yo
EURO 2000
2005
The most astonishing thing here is Anelka at 17 was full of hair yet 3 years later he was already balding to the point he started shaving bold. By 25 in that third picture he was already a lost causeI fully agree.
A perfect case of study is the comparison Henry-Anelka-Trezeguet. Same age. Trezeguet & Henry reached their full potential, which isn't the case of Anelka who was probably the most talented in the youth teams. Trezeguet never won the Champions League. Anelka never won the World Cup. Henry won everything.
Malaysia 1997 World Youth Cup: Anelka 18 yo, Trezeguet/Henry 19 yo
EURO 2000
2005
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