Raucous in the Caucasus: Intense fighting breaks out between Armenia and Azerbaijan

2cents

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Nagorno-Karabakh: Reports of fresh shelling dent ceasefire hopes

There have been reports of fresh shelling in Nagorno-Karabakh, just hours after a ceasefire between Armenia and Azerbaijan came into force.

Blasts hit Stepanakert, the disputed region's capital, on Saturday evening, say eyewitnesses and Armenian media.

Both sides had previously accused the other of continuing bombardments in other areas.

After two weeks of fighting, the two countries agreed to a temporary truce during talks in Moscow on Friday

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-54488386
 

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Nagorno-Karabakh: Reports of fresh shelling dent ceasefire hopes

There have been reports of fresh shelling in Nagorno-Karabakh, just hours after a ceasefire between Armenia and Azerbaijan came into force.

Blasts hit Stepanakert, the disputed region's capital, on Saturday evening, say eyewitnesses and Armenian media.

Both sides had previously accused the other of continuing bombardments in other areas.

After two weeks of fighting, the two countries agreed to a temporary truce during talks in Moscow on Friday

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-54488386
I didn't see any details of the ceasefire. I mean, not shooting each other for a bit would be nice, of course, but what was the plan with that? Create time for further negotiations, or was there some kind of reason figured out for both sides to accept an indeterminate ceasefire?
 

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I didn't see any details of the ceasefire. I mean, not shooting each other for a bit would be nice, of course, but what was the plan with that? Create time for further negotiations, or was there some kind of reason figured out for both sides to accept an indeterminate ceasefire?
I missed it completely as well, haven’t been paying attention the last few days.
 

Cheimoon

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I missed it completely as well, haven’t been paying attention the last few days.
I did notice that the Russians had been able to broker a ceasefire, I have just not been able to find anything other than that they're ceasing fire.
 

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Russian helicopter shot down and crew killed in the crash, I read. Any further news on that yet?
 

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Looks like victory for Azerbaijan. They took back loads of territory, including Shusha, and it seems the only thing stopping them taking Stepanakert and the rest will be Russian and Turkish peacekeepers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54882564
 

Cheimoon

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Looks like victory for Azerbaijan. They took back loads of territory, including Shusha, and it seems the only thing stopping them taking Stepanakert and the rest will be Russian and Turkish peacekeepers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54882564
Yeah, clearly. I mean, the Armenian PM himself said 'it's only a defeat if you say so', meaning that it is, and Armenian protesters are angry about the agreement. So looks like Armenia is just saving its skin here.
 

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Eh...

 

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Azerbaijan announces plans to erase Armenian traces from churches
The minister of culture said that a working group will be set up to identify what he called “Armenian forgery” from churches, putting into practice a pseudoscientific theory that denies the churches’ Armenian origin.

Azerbaijan’s government has announced that it intends to erase Armenian inscriptions on religious sites in the territory that it reclaimed in the 2020 war with Armenia.

It justified the move by arguing that the churches in fact were originally the heritage of Caucasian Albania, an ancient kingdom once located in what is now Azerbaijan. The theory, which is not supported by mainstream historians, has long been propagated by nationalist Azerbaijani historians and has been embraced by the current government in Baku…

https://eurasianet.org/azerbaijan-announces-plans-to-erase-armenian-traces-from-churches
 

TwoSheds

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Sounds like they'd be great mates with Priti and co in our government.
 

2cents

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I have a gut feeling if Ukraine escalates into a full blown war, Armenia will be overrun and, true to historic form, no one is going to give a damn.
You see Azerbaijan going beyond Nagorno-Karabakh? What would be their aim, land bridge to Nakhchivan?
 

Foxbatt

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You see Azerbaijan going beyond Nagorno-Karabakh? What would be their aim, land bridge to Nakhchivan?
Well it has now and I guess the Armenians are in for it.
What was really funny was Erdogan calling that no one should invade anyone's territory while Turkey has already invaded parts of Syria and Cyprus. Then the Taliban calling for peaceful solutions.
The world has indeed gone mad.
 

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Well it has now and I guess the Armenians are in for it.
What was really funny was Erdogan calling that no one should invade anyone's territory while Turkey has already invaded parts of Syria and Cyprus. Then the Taliban calling for peaceful solutions.
The world has indeed gone mad.
The Taliban one actually makes sense. They want people to stay out of their country and have no intention to do anything outside Afghanistan. So for them, in a perfect world of international relations, invasions don't happen.
 

led_scholes

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4) As weird as it sounds, just from a social media presence, it’s been eye opening to see the stark difference in people actually giving a feck. And it’s done that to a lot of Other Armenians as well. We now know that we never will get the amount of social media, for lack of a better word, pressure, to do something about our plight so there’s nothing we can do. Legitimately never thought I’d say this, but I’ve grown so disillusioned with the West over this that if Armenia survives I will be moving there. I mean you see it on the caf, we have a 3 page thread on a 2 year old conflict, half the posts are from 3-4 people, and the Ukraine thread, which has I’d assume over 200+ and it just got started?
Recap of the European perspective on this matter; a "quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing" .
 

VorZakone

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It’s just speculation, albeit well informed speculation from several personal sources from the economic wing of the govt.

1) Yes, Armenia is a CSTO member. However, Putin is pissed at us for pushing towards the West, which, while I understand why we did, was still stupid, because we can never go all the way with the West due to a certain member. If anything, Ukraine has taught every nation in the world that if you’re not in a concrete defensive alliance, then no one will do provide any sort of material help. Yet that’s exactly what we didn’t do, and as the rest of the world has seen, countries get fecked when Putin gets mad. I believe had we not buddied up to the west, Azeris would’ve never had the opportunity to invade.

2) Incouldve sworn I’ve posted this in this thread before, but they were flying drones, and we (the diaspora) were holding fundraisers for night vision goggles. This will be easy for them. They have a standing army in Armenia right now, and no one is saying a damn thing about it. There’s not really a threat of casualties due to the vast technological gap.

3)On the eve of Ukraine, Asadov was in Russia meeting with Putin. Odd timing for both parties unless they were signing some sort of pact. Remember, essentially the only thing holding this ceasefire in place currently is Russian peacekeeping forces. Azerbaijan and Turkey have long clamored for a true passageway between them, and with the rest of the world watching Ukraine and Russia, it just makes sense. While I think they only want to create that corridor, the entire timespan of our history says whoever can feck us will fecks us, and whoever can help us will not, just massive amounts of defeatism flowing even from my sources, stemming from point 4. Some more info

4) As weird as it sounds, just from a social media presence, it’s been eye opening to see the stark difference in people actually giving a feck. And it’s done that to a lot of Other Armenians as well. We now know that we never will get the amount of social media, for lack of a better word, pressure, to do something about our plight so there’s nothing we can do. Legitimately never thought I’d say this, but I’ve grown so disillusioned with the West over this that if Armenia survives I will be moving there. I mean you see it on the caf, we have a 3 page thread on a 2 year old conflict, half the posts are from 3-4 people, and the Ukraine thread, which has I’d assume over 200+ and it just got started?
I get why it frustrates you. But for an international audience it's much more horrific to see the big evil Russia invading another country.
 

VanDeBank

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Is there ever a peaceful solution in anything that Erdogan is involved? I have never seen anyone who loves being arrogant or loves creating chaos more than him. Trump is a novice compared to him.
This hasn't aged well to say the least :lol:

First post I see after opening the bump.
 

led_scholes

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Believe me, I understand why and how there’s such a large disparity, but it’s one thing knowing that and another thing to actually see that at the end of the day no one gives a feck about us.
Yeah it must infuriating. The betrayal and hypocrisity from the West and the punitive indifference from Russia is ridiculous.

I think your only honest ally is Greece, but we are truly shit in every way now to actually help you :(
 

izec

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Believe me, I understand why and how there’s such a large disparity, but it’s one thing knowing that and another thing to actually see that at the end of the day no one gives a feck about us.
Relatively to Ukraine, no. That is the way it is. And as you said, Russia is your best friend. You cant trust the West, respectively it will take far too long to get in, by that time Azerbaijan and Turkey will have eaten you. I would kiss Putins feet and hope he doesnt let it happen, that is your only chance. I fear for Armenia in the coming years, as i think the other two have smelled blood and will get in all the way if they can, taking as much as possible.
 

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@2cents https://oc-media.org/armenia-stands-alone-in-support-for-russia-in-council-of-europe/

this article goes more into my original post, if you'd like to take a read. rather succinctly describes the situation for us, better than I ever could.
thanks for sharing. Its an impossible situation. Its sad reading your perspective.
Are you regularly able to visit your home? Is there any perspective to develop economic ties with China to attract foreign investment and reduce the dependency on Russia/Western countries?
 

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I'm currently in the US, but I do still have family there who are trying to get out but cant get visas here. Now, I cant go too into detail, as I know a few things I technically shouldn't given who my contact is, but China is a bit of a catch-22 because its like Russia, we know eventually things will come to a head there and thus find ourselves in the same situation. The other issue is we really have nothing of value resource-wise, hence why were trying to turn into Estonia 2.0, so its not like we can get remotely favorable terms in any trade negotiations for the time being, and China is already known for giving predatory loans even to countries that have something to give back. If they removed the unanimous stipulation from NATO, I'm sure we would already have applied, but until then, we basically are caught in no mans land.
trying to emulate Estonia isn't a bad idea, but its going to be tough in your geographic situation. Still, good economic policies are going to help the country, even if it might be underwhelming in the short run.
Some countries benefit from closer economic relations with China, but these are mostly countries, that export certain commodities. I thought that maybe there is some potential in the context of the Belt and Road Initiative, but I dont know if there is enough common interest to make it viable. The sanctions against Iran won’t make it any easier either. It sucks to be land-locked while having difficult relations with your neighbors.
Following up on what you are saying, I assume that the Armenian diaspora in the USA, France and Russia has a hard time to mobilize support from these countries?
My completely unrepresentative and subjective experience (based on one person) has been that the Armenian identity continues to be strong even abroad. In the long run this might be more important than the daily political struggle in difficult circumstances.
 

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Personally speaking, I wouldn’t mind being part of the B&RI, but we have no security to guarantee the loan, unless China is interested in a Soviet era nuclear reactor? Just to give you an example, during the NK invasion, the Azeris were using drones. We were having fundraisers asking if anyone had night vision goggles they could donate.In order from easiest to hardest: Russia, France, US. US doesn’t wanna piss off Turkey and thus does essentially nothing to the point where Biden saying genocide had people clapping for how much he’d done (which is fecking sad and pathetic if you ask me), France speaks out loud and proud about the genocide but does little else again for the same reason, and Russia provides as much support to us as they can for a (on the international economic stage) nothing country but again we’re testing their patience by trying to move westward.

It’s strong for a few reasons that I don’t wanna bore with specifics except in my last point.
1) we’ve had to fend for ourselves basically alone since the fall of Constantinople, surrounded by enemies.
2) once we were conquered, we’ve had to stick together as a Christian minority in Islamic countries
3) most importantly, the genocide. Every Armenian I’ve spoken with about this has agreed, if it weren’t for the genocide, we wouldn’t be as close knit as we are. There’s 3 general types of Armenians, funnily enough each with their own dialect. The middle eastern ones (for purposes of this Iran is not part of ME), who were most affected by the genocide, and as such campaign the strongest for recognition, yet are probably the most “liberal” of all 3. Then you have the Russian/Armenia proper, who are probably the most conservative, yet if the Middle Easterners go 100% all out for the genocide, they go 99.9%, because less of them were affected. Then you have us, the Iranians, who go 95%, Bevause we were least affected, although my grandpas side was heavily affected, but strike a balance between liberal and conservative.
no idea how it really works with the BRI. Apparently countries like to barter away their ports. No danger, that you make this mistake :p. Generally I think you can only benefit from stronger economic ties with China.
I am surprised that Russia didn't support Armenia much stronger in the conflict. Sounds like a relatively easy/cheap way to increase their influence in the region and convince you to stick to them. I guess now Russia is going to have different priorities. I don't know much about the conflict with your neighbors beyond wikipedia/news. It looks bad and the example with the night vision goggles sounds grim. Hopefully it doesn't escalate. Whats your opinion on your current prime minister?

An identity that is shaped by the experience, that you have to rely on yourself, can be very powerful. Armenians are successful all over the world. Regardless of how difficult it gets, that something that won't be lost.
 

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But, that anti-corruption stems directly from our ties with Russia, and the only way to get rid was, essentially, to move westward and try to boom the economy through tech.
interesting. never thought of it that way.

just a last question. I've read that there are ongoing direct talks between Armenia and Turkey about normalizing relations (or at least moving in this direction), potentially even opening the border. Do you know anything about that? Would this be politically feasible from an Armenian point of view?

I am not posting here much anymore, but still following some discussions, that offer interesting sources/views. Don't be too discouraged to post updates, if there are newsworthy developments, even if there is only little feedback.
 

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Anything is possible, but without recognition of the genocide, everything else is a nonstarter. I can guarantee Pashinyan will be assassinated if he approves a deal that doesn’t include recognition. I don’t believe reparations or land transfer is also a requirement for the govt, for me thats just wishful thinking because then the Turks are gonna hear it from the Kurds. I think right now if Turkey said ok we recognize the genocide, and we’ll approve your NATO application, we’d take that in a heartbeat. I just don’t see any way Turkey recognizes it with the current powers in charge.
@PedroMendez Also, I have to add… there is a large segment that thinks Pashinyan is a traitor and should be hanged for the loss of Artsakh so short of getting Turkey to recognize and/or getting the land back lost in the conflict, he can’t do anything to please. Not everyone is understanding and/or cares about the position we’re trying to adjust to. Just thought I’d give the full picture. Example
thats what I was refering to earlier:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...-second-round-talks-feb-24-vienna-2022-02-03/
https://www.crisisgroup.org/europe-...a-talks-hold-promise-opening-long-shut-border

I was surprised reading that, because there is just no way that Turkey is going to recognize the genocide or makes any concessions.
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The little I read strongly indicates, that Armenia won't win any future war. Its just too one-sided. Clinging to the notion that there is a military solution seems to be a recipe for disaster regardless of who is prime minister. To be polite, the AYF / ARF seems to close their eyes from reality: "The recognition of Western Armenia, Artsakh, Nakhijevan and Javakhk as lands that legally belong to the Republic of Armenia."
They certainly don't like Pashinyan.

The reality is, as you said, that nobody is coming to help you. In these circumstances, you have to make very difficult decisions. From the little that I read, Pashinyan sounds fairly sensible, but I know too little about it.
 

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I looked at some data about weapon imports. Azerbaijan purchased about 10x the amount of conventional heavy weapons between 2005 and 2020 compared to Armenia. Modern surveillance UAVs and SAM systems from Israel, drones, cruise missiles and MRLs from Turkey, lots of different stuff from Russia/Belarus. Armenia primarily got SAM/MANPADs, 4 Su-30K and few Iskander.

can anyone recommend good sources (e.g. twitter, journalists) to follow this?
 

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can anyone recommend good sources (e.g. twitter, journalists) to follow this?
Thomas de Waal wrote one of the only English language accounts of the N-K conflict that I’m aware of, he knows the Caucasus as well as any foreigner:

 

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big rons sovereign

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It doesn't matter where you look throughout history, be it today or 3000 years ago.
You can guarantee that people were being utter wankers.
What a shitty species we are.
 

2cents

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Iran not gonna like that.