So referees should stop advantages for yellow cards? Or should you get a free foul regardless of the previous one if advantage is played?
Refs & VAR 2021/22
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Personally I think that idea should be stamped out though. Players shouldn’t feel free to stop dangerous attacks because they know they’ll get away with it.
Its an incredibly rare circumstance and better to give the "free foul" than to send somebody off, ruin the game, and make yourself the center of attention when its not really necessary.
There was a sequence in United's match against Spurs last fall where Fred cynically brought down a Spurs player, the referee played advantage but was pretty clearly looking to book Fred for what was an egregious foul trying to stop a Spurs break, then Fred actually got up, ran back, and cynically clipped Lucas Moura (I think) on the heels to stop him from driving at goal. The referee ran up to him and gave one yellow, for the second foul, despite the first foul being obviously yellow-worthy. And I completely support that. Sending him off there would have been ridiculous, changing the match totally unnecessarily. If Fred having a "free foul" in that situation is the price to pay for not ruining matches and making them about referees rather than players, then I'm happy to pay that price.
This line of thinking is stupid. They're the ref, they are meant to implement the rules, it isn't their fault that pundits want to question the legitimancy of that and make it this big controversial situation. Necessary for a ref is applying the rules properly. Oliver did.
Since you're going to use that language, its your line of thinking that is stupid and naive.
The referee implements the rules but realistically has a huge amount of discretion and uses that discretion to manage the game. Nobody who knows anything about how the game actually works believes the referee is just out there thinking solely about what the rulebook says. That's the reason why Oliver didn't give a stone cold yellow within the first five minutes to a Wolves player who bodychecked Martinelli to stop a break, because refs are often loathe to give a yellow early unless absolutely necessary. And the same reason why refs often apply a higher standard for giving a second yellow than a first. Once again, the job is not simply about "applying the rules properly." And that's fine.
Refereeing in England is awful in significant part because referees are too eager to make the match about them, rather than the players. Nobody pays hard earned money or waits all week in anticipation just so they can see Michael Oliver change the course of a match with a dubious red card or take away a good goal based on a ticky tacky foul. Since discretion is part of the job, referees should try to err on the side of not making themselves the story when its a situation that could reasonably be handled either way. Sometimes their hand is forced. But when they truly have a choice, err on the side of letting the players decide the match.
Nothing in this situation is Oliver making the match about him. Martinelli was an idiot, he gave the ref two opportunities to book him which Oliver is allowed to do and he did. Simple. He's not blessed with incredible foresight where he could tell Martinelli is going to commit a second stupid offence within seconds of the first. If he was blessed with that then I doubt he would have gave the advantage, he'd have gave the yellow and moved on. There was an opportunity for Wolves to attack and create a goal scoring opportunity hence why he gave the advantage initially and why he then gave a 2nd yellow. I think partly you're miffed because you're an Arsenal fan and he's been one of your bright sparks this season, I would be too, but Oliver has done nothing wrong here. He's made implemented the rules as he is allowed to do.
Looking at it from a United perspective I think the player was stupid and deserved the red. If it were one of our players though I’d be annoyed because it’s so rare that this happens.
OK, so you'd be happy if Fred was sent off against Spurs earlier this season for the sequence I mentioned up thread (when he committed an obvious bookable offense, ref played advantage, and then he got booked for a second tackle in the same sequence)? And you're happy that United had two goals ruled out last match for fouls that could have easily not been called?
I'm definitely miffed as an Arsenal fan but I truly do think its a more general problem of referees far too often having a decision that could easily go either way and picking the option that changes a match or takes away a goal.
This is the thing. Nobody (including myself) is very objective in these situations because we care about our teams more than anything.
But, overall, I just want less intrusive referees. Fewer red cards, fewer goals ruled out when its extremely borderline. They should err on the side of letting the players decide matches.
I don't support United, but yes the inconsistency winds me up. However, I don't think we should want that consistency to be referees letting players get away with cynicism.
what I found difficult yesterday was that after the horrendous handball decision against boro, the two questionable VAR calls against Burnley that they give that same VAR official our game.
Ill Have to watch the game back but from the stands it seemed that Southampton were reffing the game and Atwell was more than happy for it continue.
I couldn’t believe we picked up 4 yellows to their 0 yesterday, it was staggering. Some of the decisions seemed amazing.
The best one was him telling Broja to leave the pitch behind the goal,being completely ignored and doing nothing about it.
Ill Have to watch the game back but from the stands it seemed that Southampton were reffing the game and Atwell was more than happy for it continue.
I couldn’t believe we picked up 4 yellows to their 0 yesterday, it was staggering. Some of the decisions seemed amazing.
The best one was him telling Broja to leave the pitch behind the goal,being completely ignored and doing nothing about it.
Cool, so what other rules should we ignore to make matches more entertaining?
For one, we should probably have a slightly different standard for calling fouls in the penalty area than we do for outside, even though that’s not in the rules, as otherwise there would be four penalties every match for stuff like pushing and shoving on corners. Thankfully referees do this.
And hopefully referees have a slightly different standard for second yellows. Check.
And it would be great if referees were a little lax about foul throws as otherwise the game would be stopped all the time. Check again.
The game depends on discretion from referees and NOT always interpreting the letter of the law. Always has, always will.
West Ham scorer today after a 100% clear handball. I really do not understand the use of VAR anymore. It's as if VAR interfered too much last season, and this season, VAR can hardly fix a single situation. VAR is in theory a great tool. But in reality, the refs can not figure out how to use it.
I thought handball only if the ball hit the arm under the jersey sleeve. Thats why its not handball today
Looked a clear handball to me as well.
After the recent Middlesbrough handball goal at OT, we were regaled with details of a new rule which apparently permits an attacking player to accidentally handle the ball as long as it is not the final move or touch before the goal. Are we to assume there has been another hasty amendment to the rule in the last ten days?
It was a clear handball, sky talked about the shirt rule which as they said if they wear along sleeve shirt makes no sense plus I could find no such rule. Found this picture for handball on the fa website, have a picture from the fa off the handball area of the arm but can't post it sorry
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Considering the ref yesterday wanted broken bones before giving a foul, I'm extremely surprised he gave the red card. I'm not sure the other defender wouldn't have made it across to cover.
We complain about the referees in the Premier League but they're even worse down the divisions. That West Brom penalty 
Just how many decisions did they get wrong in the Liverpool game
I still don't see why the situation with Telles is a penalty while the one against Dier is feck all.
Dier has his arms far out from his body, but it's a part of his movement and he's about to bring them closer. Still blocks a shot, from close distance, that's heading towards goal with his arms stretched out.Nothing
Telles has his arm out but it's a part of his movement as he is rotating. Blocks a cross, also from close distance without time to react, Penalty
Dier has his arms far out from his body, but it's a part of his movement and he's about to bring them closer. Still blocks a shot, from close distance, that's heading towards goal with his arms stretched out.Nothing
Telles has his arm out but it's a part of his movement as he is rotating. Blocks a cross, also from close distance without time to react, Penalty
I think going by what generally gets given as handballs these days, I can see why the Dier one wasn't and the Telles one was. Diers arms are low and natural with his movement, and whilst Telles is also natural, his hand is unfortunately high.
My bigger issue is that the punishment of a penalty doesn't fit the crime of the handball by Telles
My bigger issue is that the punishment of a penalty doesn't fit the crime of the handball by Telles
Did you see Match of the Day?I still don't see why the situation with Telles is a penalty while the one against Dier is feck all.
Dier has his arms far out from his body, but it's a part of his movement and he's about to bring them closer. Still blocks a shot, from close distance, that's heading towards goal with his arms stretched out.Nothing
Telles has his arm out but it's a part of his movement as he is rotating. Blocks a cross, also from close distance without time to react, Penalty
Dier “nothing wrong with that. Natural position”
Telles “moves hands to the ball, clear penalty”
I get people can see things differently but the ‘absolute’ opinions from the media (especially BBc) for incidents going for or agaInst United is getting annoying. While it’s a love in for City and Liverpool.
The big difference is distance. Telles was a few yards further away than Dier.
I don't think he moved his hand towards the ball with intent. He was turning away from the ball, he wouldn't know where it was properly.
I don't think he moved his hand towards the ball with intent. He was turning away from the ball, he wouldn't know where it was properly.
I don't see why people is saying Dier's hands was at natural position. I thought defenders are supposed to keep their hands near to their body all the time especially defending a shots. Tonnes of defenders keep their hands straight and stick to their body in these situations. To me, Dier's hands was outstretched to block the shot.
If you actually try, it’s hard to get your hands into Diers position without making an effort to do so. It isn’t natural at all
Yeah, this. Your could argue that both players were trying to get their arms out of the way but only Telles had time to do so. The fact he could have kept his hands out of the path of the ball and didn’t makes it a hand ball.
Spectacularly poor use of VAR again for that penalty decision in the Chelsea match. The ref has given a corner, which is plainly wrong, so he’s obviously not seen the incident properly. He should be asked to go to the monitor and review in that circumstance.
I don't know what's different in the PL vs other leagues where VAR does work. Its supposed to help decisions but all its doing here is showing how awful the referees are.
PL has the worst refs around by far
If I had to guess a simple answer, some use it more successfully than others because they do actually want to improve. It's clearly a defining premiss for it to work. All it does is giving assistance to referees. Those who want to improve make use of it to become better refs, the ones who wants to keep the status quo really is just sabotaging by overcomplicating the process. It's not just the individual referees, it's those in charge of how refs should operate who aren't really trying to improve. If you reluctantly try to do something, you'll do even worse than before and so, it does actually feel like pure sabotage at times.
The state of refereeing in this country has never been worse.
It’s beyond incompetence. It feels like corruption at this point. Nobody can be that bad at making what should be the correct decision with multiple video replays in front of them.
It’s beyond incompetence. It feels like corruption at this point. Nobody can be that bad at making what should be the correct decision with multiple video replays in front of them.
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More absolute gash from VAR.
Not a clear and obvious error, except the ref gave a corner... So clearly he made an error on judging the challenge?
Its so poor.
Give it a few years when Newcastle are challenging for the title, they'll get that decision.
They’ve changed the laws of the game without it being sanctioned. The VAR rules are still the same but the refs said they would ref with a light touch from VAR this year. It wasn’t sanctioned with FIFA etc, they just decided that they will let fouls go and nothing major was made of it at the time
You do not mention proximity, which of course is a very important factor. Your analysis is flawed and biased.I still don't see why the situation with Telles is a penalty while the one against Dier is feck all.
Dier has his arms far out from his body, but it's a part of his movement and he's about to bring them closer. Still blocks a shot, from close distance, that's heading towards goal with his arms stretched out.Nothing
Telles has his arm out but it's a part of his movement as he is rotating. Blocks a cross, also from close distance without time to react, Penalty
Which part of "Close distance", which is mentioned in my post for both situations, did you fail to understand?
Oh, I’m the one failing to understand here?
The proximity is different, that’s why one is a penalty and the other is not. Obviously this is something you are failing to understand.You need to row faster.Oh, I’m the one failing to understand here?
Fact is that I've taken into account distance, or proximity since you obviously don't understand what distance means, so I'm not entirely sure how I'm supposedly failing to understand the need to take distance into account.