Roy Keane

[sullydnl]

Jimmy stuck in the middle



He's entertaining but yeah offers very little in terms of an actual insight. There's a large amounts of pundit who resort to taking the easy option of blaming desire etc, even when there are other far more prominent factors that could be highlighted, and actually dissected in an interesting manner.

Having said that, I do kind of enjoy him trotting out his cliches and arguing with other pundits in a blunt manner. If he suddenly started analysing the game I'd probably be thrown a bit.

Oh yeah, he has bags of charisma and is entertaining as hell, which in many ways is more important for a pundit than being particularly insightful. I'm sure Sky have no complaints.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Because Liverpool and Chelsea were utter wank, picking up just fecking 69 & 67 points, both looking on course for 85-90 this year.
We were wank last year, and we’ll likely pick up as many points 70-ish this season.

It's downright dumb to compare point totals between seasons. What matters are standings. And United have regressed from last season.

And the pace United are on at the moment i.e. prior to getting Rangnick is 52 points, not 70. So, wrong again.

 

[arthurka]

If Ole was here that would have been roundly labelled a shocking performance

I agree and rightly so.

 

[M Bison]

He’s had a mere there vs Carragher, big Keane fan but he’s got it wrong there. Thought he was wrong on his criticism of Carrick and was looking to be controversial, and his view on Ronaldo against Carragher was daft too.

 

[Oranges038]

He's way off. But it's funny to watch them two argue like two lads after a feed of pints.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I have seen nothing to suggest he could. Even if his studio character is the hothead, and he plays into that, which he obviously does, you would imagine he'd at least occasionally show a bit of tactical insight if he had any. So yeah, I think he has a very primitive perspective on the game.

Fair enough, I think that is a bit of a leap considering the things I have pointed to. If he was constantly worried about tactics I would agree but the fact that he never really talks about them and just talks about the things that create soundbites seem to make it pretty obvious what he is doing to me.

 

[Hughie77]

Scores goals jamie scores goals jamie. That's what the games about. Stats all over the world now. Love it.

 

[alexthelion]

If Ole was here that would have been roundly labelled a shocking performance

Exactly.

People seem so glad Ole is gone that they'll make excuses for anything.

Also, Keane speaking sense for once.

 

[Withnail]

Without being rude, I think you have been sucked in.

He knows what people expect of him and he is cashing in. Do you really believe Roy Keane doesn't understand any of the nuanced tactical aspects of football? He has literally managed moderately well in the Premier League and has his Uefa Pro badges following a career where he was often dictating most of the play.

Sucked in? There's no great subterfuge going on here. Keane might understand the tactical nuances but he's never shown himself to be capable of articulating them or providing any proper tactical analysis over the years.

Yes he plays up the curmudgeony stuff a bit but he's not hiding his light under a bushel for cash.

 

[hobbers]

Carrick has said absolutely nothing that Ole wouldn't have said. Apart from when we've gotten heavily beaten, Ole has almost always talked up our performances. Even if it was complete shite. I have never seen Keane question him once. As soon as Ole leaves, he decides now is the time to question what the manager has said after one of our poor performances. I wonder why that is.

I'm pretty sure Keane has questioned things Ole has said in interviews before, multiple times. He's certainly been really critical of a lot of our performances under Ole, but same as Neville never gone into Ole for them.

But that's par for the course really. I think it's totally fair enough what the likes of Keane and Scholes clearly feel about the rest of the coaching staff still at the club. Ole appointed a load of clueless young coaches into key roles, and delegated most of his job to them, and they cant now be allowed to slink away while only Ole loses his job.

 

[Idxomer]

Come on guys this was an abysmal showing. Ole or no Ole.

Of course, it was.

Keane is going hard now on Carrick and especially the talks of cronyism at the club isn't a good look. Ole was supposedly the man in charge who allowed all this to happen for the last 3 years. I don't remember Keane criticizing him that much, it was usually the players' fault with him.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Sucked in? There's no great subterfuge going on here. Keane might understand the tactical nuances but he's never shown himself to be capable of articulating them or providing any proper tactical analysis over the years.

Yes he plays up the curmudgeony stuff a bit but he's not hiding his light under a bushel for cash.

So you think he cannot articulate something he knows very well.

He doesn't seem like an unarticulate person to me but okay?

I reckon the massive bag of cash is more a factor but sure.

 

[CloneMC16]

I'm pretty sure Keane has questioned things Ole has said in interviews before, multiple times. He's certainly been really critical of a lot of our performances under Ole, but same as Neville never gone into Ole for them.

But that's par for the course really. I think it's totally fair enough what the likes of Keane and Scholes clearly feel about the rest of the coaching staff still at the club. Ole appointed a load of clueless young coaches into key roles, and delegated most of his job to them, and they cant now be allowed to slink away while only Ole loses his job.

It's fair to say that, but Ole had little experience himself. He should never have been in this job. Those coaches might still get sacked when Rangnick comes in. Someone has to train and coach the players while we wait for new management.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

Carrick isn’t Keano’s mate so he’s fair game. Love Keane but he sure does talk some nonsense to back up his opinions.

 

[Cascarino]

Having followed Keane as both a pundit and manager for years, nothing I've ever heard him say indicates anything other than a shallow knowledge of football beyond "character" and "effort".

You don't need to have a keen football mind to be a good footballer, get your coaching badges or indeed get (limited) decent results as a manager at the level Keane did some 13 years ago with Sunderland.

There's certainly a performative element to his public persona but that shouldn't be mistaken as a sign of hidden depth.

Aye, the Pro license does cover systems of play and tactical application etc, but it's only one small part of a very holistic approach to management. You spend time on communication, the financial side of the game, a lot of time on training drills, recruitment,marketing, prep work, managing staff, physical conditioning, and plenty more. So while the top badge gives a brilliant insight into managing a club (and it does cover tactical theory and application), it's not necessarily going to turn you into Sacchi.

Was a far more intelligent player and did much better as a coach when given the opportunity.

The coach argument is fair, but the first point I don't agree with. On the pitch and off the pitch is such a different world that being a more intelligent player doesn't necessarily translate into having a better tactical insight. While I don't think Neville is anything special, Keane has never shown any insight as a pundit. He might have a far better understanding than Neville, but it doesn't mean much if he doesn't share it. At least as a pundit.

 

[Son]

I'm pretty sure Keane has questioned things Ole has said in interviews before, multiple times. He's certainly been really critical of a lot of our performances under Ole, but same as Neville never gone into Ole for them.

But that's par for the course really. I think it's totally fair enough what the likes of Keane and Scholes clearly feel about the rest of the coaching staff still at the club. Ole appointed a load of clueless young coaches into key roles, and delegated most of his job to them, and they cant now be allowed to slink away while only Ole loses his job.

After Rui Faria left us under Mou we’ve had similar coaching staff I think. Funnily enough we’ve won sod all since he left.

 

[Josep Dowling]

Keane’s point on Ronaldo is wrong. It’s very much like when we played with Van Nisterooy. Great goal scorer but provides absolutely nothing for most of the game. This isn’t Ronaldo in his prime and I think the balance of the side is wrong when Ronaldo starts. That’s not Ronaldo faults, it’s the lack of foresight by the board and management that having him upfront changes the whole dynamic on how the teams play. And this is the point, simply playing your best players doesn’t constitute a great team. Look how well Jota is doing with Liverpool right now. Keane doesn’t seem to understand this and just mutters about goal stats and ‘character’.

 

[tomaldinho1]

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Sad thing is this is manufactured for entertainment by Sky and people lap it up. It’s literally two old blokes arguing.

 

[Lentwood]

Keane talks rubbish, proper throwback to 90s era football with no insight to offer - plus what many don't realise is him and Ole are really good mates. Not just "ex-teammate mates", but genuinely close mates.

 

[Rightnr]

Yeah, you can see they don't really buy into that quarrel. Fun to watch but all-in-all, very little value in terms of football analysis.

Sufficient for the Tik-Tok era, especially when you have to run ads during half time and cannot actually discuss the game.

 

[Crackers]

He’s completely wrong on the Ronaldo situation. Was embarrassing. He had a point regarding the Carrick stuff and the lack of planning etc and the jobs for the boys thing.

I kinda agree with him on that

 

[moxdevil]

He certainly triggers the little princesses on here

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I’m also guessing we took more points of Liverpool,City and Chelsea last season

Well yeah, Chelsea and Liverpool were utter dogshit last season as we just mentioned, hence how we somehow ended 2nd on just 74 fecking points. Oh, and despite Chelsea and Liverpool being wank, we took 3 points in total from our 4 games against them. So far we have 1 from 2 so not far off.

As I also said before we are likely in my opinion to end up on a similar points total to last year.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Aye, the Pro license does cover systems of play and tactical application etc, but it's only one small part of a very holistic approach to management. You spend time on communication, the financial side of the game, a lot of time on training drills, recruitment,marketing, prep work, managing staff, physical conditioning, and plenty more. So while the top badge gives a brilliant insight into managing a club (and it does cover tactical theory and application), it's not necessarily going to turn you into Sacchi.



The coach argument is fair, but the first point I don't agree with. On the pitch and off the pitch is such a different world that being a more intelligent player doesn't necessarily translate into having a better tactical insight. While I don't think Neville is anything special, Keane has never shown any insight as a pundit. He might have a far better understanding than Neville, but it doesn't mean much if he doesn't share it. At least as a pundit.

1. I do not think he is Sacchi, I think he has a good enough tactical understanding on football that he could offer a tactical breakdown on certain aspects, considering you get that on this forum and thousands of others I think that is a fair shout. The fact that he rarely offers anything in that way probably means he thinks it benefits him not to. I reckon as a motivator for that the fact that he earns loads of money to play the character who just moans about belief and other such things is a pretty good one.

2. I agree that it means nothing if he does not share it. I am not defending him, I am actually pointing to the fact that I think it is worse that he willingly chooses to play this caricature is worse than being genuinely ignorant.

 

[Withnail]

So you think he cannot articulate something he knows very well.

He doesn't seem like an unarticulate person to me but okay?

I reckon the massive bag of cash is more a factor but sure.

This is a well known thing. You know the expression 'those who can, do and those two can't, teach'?

Many elite players have an innate, instinctive understanding of the game that they struggle to articulate. I've watched Keane speaking about football and doing interviews for years and years (long before he took the job on Sky) He's never once shown an inclination to discuss or analyse tactics.

The idea that this is all a big act for Sky is hilarious.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

The idea that this is all a big act for Sky is hilarious.

Laugh away.

Roy Keane is, all the way to the bank.

 

[Robertd0803]

Get in there Keane. Don't care if he makes sense as long as he's shouting down carras

Exactly. It helps that even when going off on one you can understand Keane perfectly while I cant understand a word Carragher is saying.

After Rui Faria left us under Mou we’ve had similar coaching staff I think. Funnily enough we’ve won sod all since he left.

Odd coincidence isnt it. Where did he end up?

 

[Pearl.Jam]

Still love him..the true definition of a real UTD legend

 

[hobbers]

After Rui Faria left us under Mou we’ve had similar coaching staff I think. Funnily enough we’ve won sod all since he left.

Yeah it's clear that McKenna and Carrick should be coaching 15 year olds not Premier League footballers. That's their level.

Mourinho made a mistake appointing them both to replace Faria, but at least with Mourinho he still plays a big part in coaching sessions, and is always on the training ground. So they could learn from him.

Then Ole comes in and keeps them in the same job, minus the input of a top manager, because they're decent people and his mates.

 

[BluesJr]

Laugh away.

Roy Keane is, all the way to the bank.

You’re giving him way too much credit. The reality is Keane is just old school.

 

[Withnail]

Laugh away.

Roy Keane is, all the way to the bank.

Ok mate. You can keep your little fantasy.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Well yeah, Chelsea and Liverpool were utter dogshit last season as we just mentioned, hence how we somehow ended 2nd on just 74 fecking points. Oh, and despite Chelsea and Liverpool being wank, we took 3 points in total from our 4 games against them. So far we have 1 from 2 so not far off.

As I also said before we are likely in my opinion to end up on a similar points total to last year.

We are on pace for 52 points, which is much lower than our total last season.

Improvements under Rangnick aren't relevant to the comparison because last season's squad had Ole as the manager.

By any metric, we have regressed in the league this season.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Ok mate. You can keep your little fantasy.

"Fantasy"

As if me or anyone could care less.

The fact that you think someone would not play up to their reputation because it plays well on TV and makes a ton of money is what is more laughable. Graeme Souness has spent over a decade doing it.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

He's had a strong punditry career, but the Carrick segment seemed personal. I understand there's no link or connection there, but just seemed unnecessary and out of order.

Thought the Ronaldo segment was silly too. He will be benched from time to time at 37.

 

[Cascarino]

1. I do not think he is Sacchi, I think he has a good enough tactical understanding on football that he could offer a tactical breakdown on certain aspects, considering you get that on this forum and thousands of others I think that is a fair shout. The fact that he rarely offers anything in that way probably means he thinks it benefits him not to. I reckon as a motivator for that the fact that he earns loads of money to play the character who just moans about belief and other such things is a pretty good one.

2. I agree that it means nothing if he does not share it. I am not defending him, I am actually pointing to the fact that I think it is worse that he willingly chooses to play this caricature is worse than being genuinely ignorant.

Fair point! I understand what you mean about the character thing, I do enjoy watching his rants and bluntness, so it does scratch an itch.

 

[Withnail]

"Fantasy"

As me or anyone could care less.

The fact that you think someone would not play up to their reputation because it plays well on TV and makes a ton of money is what is more laughable. Graeme Souness has spent over a decade doing it.

I said he does play up to the camera. That's not the argument. Move the goal posts some more there.

 

[AndySmith1990]

I appreciate people like Keane who say it how it is. I'm bored of listening to people with agendas or bias skirting around the issues or burying their head in the sand.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I said he does play up to the camera. That's not the argument. Move the goal posts some more there.

My literal point, my only point is that Roy Keane probably understands football pretty bloody well but chooses not to break it down in any specific way but rather moans about "belief, work rate and toughness" or whatever because that leans into the Roy Keane caricature and grabs a bunch of attention for his employer (and continued/future employment for him).

I have not moved slightly from that, not even a single millimeter. I have said nothing else and believe it to be wholly true.

Nothing I have said has even remotely indicated anything apart from that.

 

[sullydnl]

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[Marwood]

He's disliked Carrick for ages guys. He was reacting with disdain to Carrick's interviews under Moyes.

But everyone complaining about his lack of insight. You seem to want a pundit to overcomplicate the game for you. Keane is never going to join in with the pseudo intellectual take on the game.

He's believes in pass and move. That simple as the core of any performance.