Rugby Union 21/22/23 Discussion | RWC time!

[Dan_F]

If they don’t, that’s because they’ve been beaten by a team from outside the top four. Which is fair enough. And won’t happen here, so isn’t a relevant comparison.

Although I do understand why England fans would rather the draw is never brought up.

Not really. You always end up with World Cup or Euro draws where one half is stacked compared to the other. Champions League groups where the fourth best team would qualify from other groups too. Of course it’s even more pronounced here because there’s so few teams and the quality drop off from England/Wales/Australia has been so big. Whoever drew Japan was always destined to have it easier.

I’m trying to figure out if it’s the fact that Ireland got a harder draw, or England getting an easier draw that’s upset people so much.

 

[Xaviesta]

After my venting earlier, I will say that as poor as the Wallabies were on defence, scrum, maul defence, ball protection at the breakdown and on attack, Wales produced a very smart performance in what was a high pressure and high stakes game for both sides.

 

[Kopral Jono]

Is it just me or has this edition of the World Cup -- despite its rather muted fanfare compared to the two previous ones -- been quite a spectacle? These past few days alone saw a gritty encounter between Argentina and Samoa, the next day Georgia and Portugal in what was arguably the best match of the tournament so far followed by Ireland and South Africa of course. Last night's matches weren't too bad, either.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not really. You always end up with World Cup or Euro draws where one half is stacked compared to the other. Champions League groups where the fourth best team would qualify from other groups too. Of course it’s even more pronounced here because there’s so few teams and the quality drop off from England/Wales/Australia has been so big. Whoever drew Japan was always destined to have it easier.

I’m trying to figure out if it’s the fact that Ireland got a harder draw, or England getting an easier draw that’s upset people so much.

You don’t need a gigantic brain to work out why people think this is such a terrible draw, surely? It’s been pointed out enough times already that this is not the same thing as “group of death” situation in football competitions. Why do so many of you keep missing the point?! It’s not the quality drop off from England/Australia/Wales. It’s the quality drop off to England/Australia/Wales that’s the issue. I swear some of ye haven’t been following rugby for the last two years.

And you may be shocked to hear that many of the people who think it’s a terrible draw a) aren’t Irish and b) couldn’t give a shite about England’s fortunes. You’re just hearing more from Ireland fans because of the website this is being discussed on.

 

[antsmithmk]

You don’t need a gigantic brain to work out why people think this is such a terrible draw, surely? It’s been pointed out enough times already that this is not the same thing as “group of death” situation in football competitions. Why do so many of you keep missing the point?! It’s not the quality drop off from England/Australia/Wales. It’s the quality drop off to England/Australia/Wales that’s the issue. I swear some of ye haven’t been following rugby for the last two years.

And you may be shocked to hear that many of the people who think it’s a terrible draw a) aren’t Irish and b) couldn’t give a shite about England’s fortunes. You’re just hearing more from Ireland fans because of the website this is being discussed on.

Exactly this.

I think most rugby fans want NZ, France, South Africa and Ireland in the semi finals and this sadly can’t be the case. Instead one of these teams is likely to have a relatively easy semi final against England, Wales or Fiji.

 

[T00lsh3d]

I can’t wait for one of the big dogs to get knocked out by Wales or Fiji. Cannot wait

 

[JPRouve]

You don’t need a gigantic brain to work out why people think this is such a terrible draw, surely? It’s been pointed out enough times already that this is not the same thing as “group of death” situation in football competitions. Why do so many of you keep missing the point?! It’s not the quality drop off from England/Australia/Wales. It’s the quality drop off to England/Australia/Wales that’s the issue. I swear some of ye haven’t been following rugby for the last two years.

And you may be shocked to hear that many of the people who think it’s a terrible draw a) aren’t Irish and b) couldn’t give a shite about England’s fortunes. You’re just hearing more from Ireland fans because of the website this is being discussed on.

And if England fans thinks that they are the target, we can rephrase with them being included. Half of the top 6 has zero chance to go beyond the quarter finals. Half of the top 6 is by default eliminated earlier than necessary. Which wouldn't be the case if the draw was done earlier this year.

 

[JPRouve]

I can’t wait for one of the big dogs to get knocked out by Wales or Fiji. Cannot wait

It's worth pointing out that Wales are a major nation, they struggled in the past 12 months but in normal circumstances no one wants to play them. Fiji, I can give you that.

 

[Withnail]

He knows he takes an unnaturally small step onto a hand that is already touching his other shoe

The fact that he didn't react when he would have known by the feeling that he wasn't on grass tells you a lot.

 

[antsmithmk]

I can’t wait for one of the big dogs to get knocked out by Wales or Fiji. Cannot wait

Wales knocked Australia out last night.
There is no way on one of the big 4 loses to Fiji or Wales in a World Cup semi. If you believe that then could make some serious cash…

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

Can’t wait for England to throw egg on a lot of people’s faces

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Can’t wait for England to throw egg on a lot of people’s faces

I mean, England are long overdue starting to punch their weight. So this could definitely happen. Obviously helps they've had such an easy run of fixtures to build some much needed momentum/confidence. And we've seen before that they're a tournament team, who can turn it on for big occasions.

 

[Zen]

The only thing in Rugby that's long overdue is Ireland in a World Cup semi.... and given the Irish obsession with the draw, it's probably going to continue.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The only thing in Rugby that's long overdue is Ireland in a World Cup semi.... and given the Irish obsession with the draw, it's probably going to continue.

You can remove “Irish obsession with” from that last sentence. Because the draw is what it is and I don’t think the Irish manager and team have mentioned the draw once. Andy Farrell, in particular, seems to prefer doing things the hard way. He’s always been more positive, the more unlucky breaks his team gets.

For the fans, obviously, it’s a different story but we don’t influence performance or results (other than positively, judging by the players comments about the atmosphere in Paris)

 

[T00lsh3d]

It's worth pointing out that Wales are a major nation, they struggled in the past 12 months but in normal circumstances no one wants to play them. Fiji, I can give you that.

Wales knocked Australia out last night.
There is no way on one of the big 4 loses to Fiji or Wales in a World Cup semi. If you believe that then could make some serious cash…

I’m just baiting the draw-moaners. It gets more discussion than the bloody rugby in this thread.


I’ll add some fun, after years of playing lock in union my lad played his first ever game of league today. Had one training session Friday then played today. Had no idea what the feck he was doing….all this running backwards away from the breakdown, absolutely blowing after about 10 mins. Funny as feck to watch from the sidelines

 

[MoskvaRed]

As regards the draw, Wales are improving under Gatland and won’t be a pushover in the semis. England is harder to decipher due to the poor opposition in their pool, but, if you are a glass half full type, there are some signs that they are shaking off the toxic effects of late period Eddie Mourinho and getting used to the new coaching team.

predictions: Ireland will get to the final. On the other side, South Africa would batter England. So should France but if there is one team England can psyche out at a World Cup, it’s France.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

I mean, England are long overdue starting to punch their weight. So this could definitely happen. Obviously helps they've had such an easy run of fixtures to build some much needed momentum/confidence. And we've seen before that they're a tournament team, who can turn it on for big occasions.

I wasn’t being serious. Don’t think that this team can beat any of the big boys

 

[antsmithmk]

Can’t wait for England to throw egg on a lot of people’s faces

I've seen absolutely nothing in our games in the last 7 months to suggest this is going to happen.

 

[T00lsh3d]

As regards the draw, Wales are improving under Gatland and won’t be a pushover in the semis. England is harder to decipher due to the poor opposition in their pool, but, if you are a glass half full type, there are some signs that they are shaking off the toxic effects of late period Eddie Mourinho and getting used to the new coaching team.

predictions: Ireland will get to the final. On the other side, South Africa would batter England. So should France but if there is one team England can psyche out at a World Cup, it’s France.

England will be sledgehammered by France in France if they meet

Only one of the 4 favs we have a slight chance against is the ABs, even that’s fairly remote and requires them having nightmares about last WC

Ireland, SA & France will bonefeck us

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Some stats from South Africa vs Ireland

One area where Ireland were made to work hard was in possession at the ruck, where their usually rapid ruck speed was tested to the limit. Their average speed in Paris was 4.83s - the seventh slowest of any team in any game in the tournament - dropping them from first overall to sixth in the space of a week.

However, their defensive work at the ruck was outstanding. Though they are ranked 10th in the tournament for average turnovers with 6.7, they have second most at the breakdown with five.

"I think that’s one area where Ireland were exceptional tonight,” Springboks head coach Jacques Nienaber said of Ireland’s breakdown work. “That’s probably one of the biggest reasons why we didn’t get momentum." Captain Siya Kolisi added: "I thought they were more accurate than us today, a bit faster to the breakdown. We knew it was coming. We got to their 22, but the opportunities we lost were all through the breakdown.”

An area where South Africa were a step above was dominant tackles, of which they made 31. To put that into context, France are ranked second for dominant tackles overall, and their total for the entire tournament (34) is only three more than South Africa managed against Ireland alone.

That last stat is mad. Felt that way watching the game. Their tackling was so aggressive. Didn’t know they were as dominant as that though.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Some stats from South Africa vs Ireland



That last stat is mad. Felt that way watching the game. Their tackling was so aggressive. Didn’t know they were as dominant as that though.

I’ve said a few times that the successes teams have had against Leinster & Ireland has come from being really aggressive with jackaling. Think La Rochelle the last few seasons. To this extent it was preferable for Ireland that Malcolm Marx was out of the game….he’s awesome over the ball and I’ve no doubt he’d have slowed that quick ball down even further if he’d been available

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I’ve said a few times that the successes teams have had against Leinster & Ireland has come from being really aggressive with jackaling. Think La Rochelle the last few seasons. To this extent it was preferable for Ireland that Malcolm Marx was out of the game….he’s awesome over the ball and I’ve no doubt he’d have slowed that quick ball down even further if he’d been available

Yeah, it’s kind of an open secret. Ireland’s (and Leinster’s) Achilles heel. Slow down their ruck ball and the whole house of cards come down. So in a weird way, it’s encouraging to see South Africa do that so successfully and still lose.

But that’s definitely going to be the tactic they’re up against in every game from here on in. I just hope it’s not as easy for other teams to do as if was for South Africa, whose aggression in defence was off the charts good. Du Toit is a fecking animal.

 

[JPRouve]

England will be sledgehammered by France in France if they meet

Only one of the 4 favs we have a slight chance against is the ABs, even that’s fairly remote and requires them having nightmares about last WC

Ireland, SA & France will bonefeck us

In depends a lot on Galthié's decisions, France will have to change their strategy without Dupond. I really hope that Couilloud and Ramos are the halves pairing because for some reason Lucu has been very slow and his kicking has been off. Couilloud is more of a runner like Jalibert and he is pretty good but not the best fit. The game against Italy is going to be very important to see how things work.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Yeah, it’s kind of an open secret. Ireland’s (and Leinster’s) Achilles heel. Slow down their ruck ball and the whole house of cards come down. So in a weird way, it’s encouraging to see South Africa do that so successfully and still lose.

But that’s definitely going to be the tactic they’re up against in every game from here on in. I just hope it’s not as easy for other teams to do as if was for South Africa, whose aggression in defence was off the charts good. Du Toit is a fecking animal.

There’s just something about a 6ft 6” openside flying out to murder the 10 that makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

The counterbalance to this is that neither PSTD or Kolisi are turnover experts….they’re skills are in being massive aggressive murderers. Don’t know the stats but I expect Marx to be well ahead of them for turnovers.

 

[T00lsh3d]

In depends a lot on Galthié's decisions, France will have to change their strategy without Dupond. I really hope that Couilloud and Ramos are the halves pairing because for some reason Lucu has been very slow and his kicking has been off. Couilloud is more of a runner like Jalibert and he is pretty good but not the best fit. The game against Italy is going to be very important to see how things work.

Is there a reason you call him Dupond and not DuPont?

Id fancy you either way tbh, though obviously DuPont being out weakens you. I just think you have enough up front, as painful as it is I don’t think this English pack can stand up to France at the moment, especially if the scrum goes against us.

Jalibert is still fit isn’t he? Surely he starts if so

 

[JPRouve]

There’s just something about a 6ft 6” openside flying out to murder the 10 that makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

The counterbalance to this is that neither PSTD or Kolisi are turnover experts….they’re skills are in being massive aggressive murderers. Don’t know the stats but I expect Marx to be well ahead of them for turnovers.

Reading this made me realize that SA misses Mtawarira and prime Vermeulen. Because Marx was better used as an impact player than as a leader of their defensive system.

 

[JPRouve]

Is there a reason you call him Dupond and not DuPont?

Id fancy you either way tbh, though obviously DuPont being out weakens you. I just think you have enough up front, as painful as it is I don’t think this English pack can stand up to France at the moment, especially if the scrum goes against us.

Jalibert is still fit isn’t he? Surely he starts if so

No, i didn't spell it properly, it's with a t not a d. Both are common.

PS: the P isn't in capital letter.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Reading this made me realize that SA misses Mtawarira and prime Vermeulen. Because Marx was better used as an impact player than as a leader of their defensive system.

Prime Vermeulen would be the answer. Kwagga Smith doesn’t have the stature and Weise is another mad murderer

No, i didn't spell it properly, it's with a t not a d. Both are common.

PS: the P isn't in capital letter.

SORRY ITS THE PHONE (it genuinely capitalises the P of its own accord)

 

[JJ12]

Prime Vermeulen would be the answer. Kwagga Smith doesn’t have the stature and Weise is another mad murderer

SORRY ITS THE PHONE (it genuinely capitalises the P of its own accord)

I've noticed that it capitalises the P in Dupont on whats app, very fecking annoying

 

[Hugh Jass]

I've noticed that it capitalises the P in Dupont on whats app, very fecking annoying

DuPont is a famous American conglomerate.

 

[Plastic Evra]

DuPont is a famous American conglomerate.

Not to be confused with DuPond despite the working together as detectives for the Belgian police.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There’s just something about a 6ft 6” openside flying out to murder the 10 that makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

The counterbalance to this is that neither PSTD or Kolisi are turnover experts….they’re skills are in being massive aggressive murderers. Don’t know the stats but I expect Marx to be well ahead of them for turnovers.

Yeah, true. Good point. The stats back that up too. They slowed the ruck ball right down without winning that many turnovers.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

After the upthread chat about red cards and tackle technique, this is an interesting read.

 

[Cascarino]

He’s one hell of a prick but I kind of like Eddie Jones. Sort of a situation where he’s so trollish and talks so much shit that I find his rants more comical than insulting. He’s such a shithead

 

[unchanged_lineup]

After the upthread chat about red cards and tackle technique, this is an interesting read.

Read that last night, it's a great article.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

He’s one hell of a prick but I kind of like Eddie Jones. Sort of a situation where he’s so trollish and talks so much shit that I find his rants more comical than insulting. He’s such a shithead

Nah he's just a prick prick

 

[Traub]

I've been thinking about this draw again, and it's actually even worse than just two of the top four being knocked out in the QF. SA and Ireland (I'm assuming these two will go through), are probably going to be physically broken by the semis: the match on the weekend was extremely tough (a world cup semi final level of energy), and they both have to play Scotland, which could be seen as a QF level of energy. They then have to play France and NZ in the QF who have only had one tough game each. And then compare this to the other side of the draw, where we basically have Wales and England cruising to the semis. We have been very focused on how the draw knocks out 3 of the top 5 by the end of the QF, but I think the remaining 2 - especially Ireland and/or SA (unless they both get knocked out) - are going to be extremely tired by the semis (mentally and physically), whereas their opponents will be fresh.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I've been thinking about this draw again, and it's actually even worse than just two of the top four being knocked out in the QF. SA and Ireland (I'm assuming these two will go through), are probably going to be physically broken by the semis: the match on the weekend was extremely tough (a world cup semi final level of energy), and they both have to play Scotland, which could be seen as a QF level of energy. They then have to play France and NZ in the QF who have only had one tough game each. And then compare this to the other side of the draw, where we basically have Wales and England cruising to the semis. We have been very focused on how the draw knocks out 3 of the top 5 by the end of the QF, but I think the remaining 2 - especially Ireland and/or SA (unless they both get knocked out) - are going to be extremely tired by the semis (mentally and physically), whereas their opponents will be fresh.

Careful now. You’ll trigger the England fans…

 

[Ahmer Baig]

 

[JJ12]

The worst thing is I don’t think either England or Wales are shoe ins for the semi finals.