SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Maluco]

I guess it’s what is being used here to test more quickly. The swabs are taking a long time to be processed.

I think it shows two types of anybody response. One of longer term (starting at 3 weeks out) and one is short term (from about 10-13 days ago)

So I would guess from that, that my wife is probably over the worst and it was a relatively harmless contact. We still don’t know how to proceed though. We may have to get swab tests and just wait out the considerable waiting time.

 

[Snowjoe]

I guess it’s what is being used here to test more quickly. The swabs are taking a long time to be processed.

I think it shows two types of anybody response. One of longer term (starting at 3 weeks out) and one is short term (from about 10-13 days ago)

So I would guess from that, that my wife is probably over the worst and it was a relatively harmless contact. We still don’t know how to proceed though. We may have to get swab tests and just wait out the considerable waiting time.

That sounds like it’s antibodies, I’ve had one done here and that’s what it sounds like, think you’d need a swab test as you say to know if you have an active infection

 

[Maluco]

That sounds like it’s antibodies, I’ve had one done here and that’s what it sounds like, think you’d need a swab test as you say to know if you have an active infection

They only give out swabs here after a doctor seeks permission and there are no symptoms in the family at present.

Difficult to know what to do. I guess it’s just to follow quarantine and confirm that symptoms don’t show up.

Antibody test clearly being used here to suggest an active virus. (The shorter term presence result)

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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[RedRover]

I've read a few articles by him that in my view have been spot on. Especially regarding the use of the PHA to avoid parliamentary scrutiny. He's not bad for a quote either "When societies lose their liberty, it is not usually because some despot has crushed it under his boot. It is because people voluntarily surrendered their liberty out of fear of some external threat.”

We're already seeing very concerning signs that this government believes they're above scrutiny in my opinion (even excluding the aforementioned). The cronyism that we've seen in terms of the awarding of PPE and shipping contracts for example. The internal markets bill is another obvious one. The championing of police usage of disproportionate and coercive powers. The increase in custody time limits meaning innocent people are spending 8 months incarcerated without trial. Even the fact that the emergency act went through "on the nod" without any proper debate should be cause for real concern.

Yes , he's a very clever man. As well as sitting in the Supreme Court he's a historian and that gives insight into the point he makes in the quote above.

I'm a lawyer so I have studied and understand the idea of separation of powers probably more than the average person might but he's making very valid points. To dismiss those points without considering them shows nothing more than ignorance.

It's almost as if some in the UK think the idea of separation of powers isn't needed here because we're clearly above all that, and presumably only required in other parts of the world where dictatorships and human rights abuses run rampant. My view, we elect MP's to Parliament for just this type of thing. When action needs to be taken (and this instance, it clearly was) the Executive should set out it's case, present it's evidence and let Parliament decide.

All of those things are very concerning. Small changes all add up to bigger things down the line.

 

[Wibble]

Absolutely this. I'm stunned that anyone would want to live in a country where you're forcibly restrained/sedated whilst someone on the government payroll shoves a needle in your arm. That's before even thinking about how unfair it would be to expect medical professionals to carry this out against people's will.

Alongside the desire amongst certain groups for the use of far greater government force in restricting movement, far greater surveillance of the populace, the celebrating of coercive police practices and the desire to enforce draconian measures that cost other people their lives and livelihood; it makes me very worried about how future governments will harness the power of fear (similar to what happened after 9/11).

It's even more mind boggling as the very same people who want authoritarianism thrust upon them are often massively loathing and distrusting of the current government, despite wanting them to hold sweeping new powers. You'll hear someone talk of the horrors brought upon the poorest in society in one breath and then want that same government to have carte blanche to forcibly inject those same vulnerable people in another. It seems absurd to me.

As a previous poster mentioned in terms of a vaccine a tax incentive would be a far greater and less terrifying thought.

When has anybody ever suggested forcibly sticking a needle in people? Not so much a straw man as a straw giant.

If any country does ever make it compulsory, which is unlikely in democracies, it will be in the way we make wearing seatbelts compulsory. More likely is it will just be strongly encouraged.

 

[Wibble]

Once a vaccine is being produced in enough numbers it doesn't really need to be forced. Those that choose to be vaccinated can be safe, those that don't can take the risk.

That isn't at all true. Choosing not to vaccinate affects the whole of society because without reaching HIT not only those who choose not to vaccinate are at riskbut you endanger those who often can't be protected directly by a vaccine e.g. immune compromised,very young, aged people

Not vaccinating yourself in general is a deeply selfish act.

 

[sammsky1]

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[Tibs]

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On that note - has there been much data around people who have been infected in first wave, recovered, but then had it again in the second wave?

 

[Andy_Cole]

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Someone as important as him could surely just get tested everyday (get results in hours and isolate until the results every morning). Weird he’d need to isolate for 2 weeks.

 

[finneh]

When has anybody ever suggested forcibly sticking a needle in people? Not so much a straw man as a straw giant.

If any country does ever make it compulsory, which is unlikely in democracies, it will be in the way we make wearing seatbelts compulsory. More likely is it will just be strongly encouraged.

If someone says something is mandatory that generally means it's compulsory.

If something is compulsory the law would either have to enforce it by force or presumably would have to punish people on a progressively severe scale to coerce them into it.

If you continually refuse to have a vaccine what would be the progression of punishments? I'm genuinely interested as I can imagine an educational course to start with, maybe then a fine, progressing to maybe community service... Then what? Prison?

Strongly encouraging something is of course completely different to making it mandatory.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I've read a few articles by him that in my view have been spot on. Especially regarding the use of the PHA to avoid parliamentary scrutiny. He's not bad for a quote either "When societies lose their liberty, it is not usually because some despot has crushed it under his boot. It is because people voluntarily surrendered their liberty out of fear of some external threat.”

We're already seeing very concerning signs that this government believes they're above scrutiny in my opinion (even excluding the aforementioned). The cronyism that we've seen in terms of the awarding of PPE and shipping contracts for example. The internal markets bill is another obvious one. The championing of police usage of disproportionate and coercive powers. The increase in custody time limits meaning innocent people are spending 8 months incarcerated without trial. Even the fact that the emergency act went through "on the nod" without any proper debate should be cause for real concern.

Who did you vote for?

 

[finneh]

Who did you vote for?

2010 - didn't vote
2015 - didn't vote
2017 - Conservative
2019 - an independent who said he'd give his salary to charity

 

[Tony Babangida]

On that note - has there been much data around people who have been infected in first wave, recovered, but then had it again in the second wave?

Very few confirmed cases reported of this happening so far. Still early days though. I would imagine Boris would be immune if exposed a second time- had a serious case the first time and likely has immunity. Trump on the other hand possibly could get it again as it is possible the monoclonal antibodies he received tackled the virus before he had a chance to mount an effective immune response. That’s me speculating anyway.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

2010 - didn't vote
2015 - didn't vote
2017 - Conservative
2019 - an independent who said he'd give his salary to charity

Then park your musings at the door. Your inventing nonsensical premises and getting people to expand on them.

Nobody is supporting FORCED vaccination. You’re inventing straw men and turning them into bogeymen.

You voted for people that treat humans like subjects. I see why you think this may manifest, but you voted for them. So stand back and stand by I guess.

 

[Port Vale Devil]

Someone as important as him could sure just get tested everyday (get results in hours and isolate until the results every morning). Weird he’d need to isolate for 2 weeks.

Probably happy enough being locked up in Carrie’s sex boudoir for a couple of weeks.

 

[Badunk]

Johnson is jumping at the chance to sit on his fat arse for two weeks, the lazy twunt.

 

[Garethw]

When has anybody ever suggested forcibly sticking a needle in people? Not so much a straw man as a straw giant.

If any country does ever make it compulsory, which is unlikely in democracies, it will be in the way we make wearing seatbelts compulsory. More likely is it will just be strongly encouraged.

I saw the other day that Ticketmaster have stated that proof of having the vaccine or proof of a negative test result 72 hours before a concert/show will be required to purchase tickets/attend the event.

I think the same will be true of air travel and attending sporting events going forward too.

Nobody will forcibly stick a needle in your arm, but it will be compulsorily to get back to some semblance of normality for most people.

The antivaccine crazies are out in force on Facebook. They seem to be converting a lot of people at the moment

 

[Wolverine]

The antivaccine crazies are out in force on Facebook. They seem to be converting a lot of people at the moment

I wouldn't worry too much about the crazies.
The national flu vaccination programme runs usually from September to November in the UK. In 2018/19 1.4 million flu jabs were given. 2019/2020 it was 1.71 million. It took just under 2 months into this year's flu programme to beat that 1.7 million number which was easily passed by October end.

 

[Wibble]

I saw the other day that Ticketmaster have stated that proof of having the vaccine or proof of a negative test result 72 hours before a concert/show will be required to purchase tickets/attend the event.

I think the same will be true of air travel and attending sporting events going forward too.

Nobody will forcibly stick a needle in your arm, but it will be compulsorily to get back to some semblance of normality for most people.

The antivaccine crazies are out in force on Facebook. They seem to be converting a lot of people at the moment

Encouraging people to do something is very different making things compulsory, e.g. fine them for not complying, but forcibly injecting people against their will is another level.

An interesting discussion around this issue from an Australian perspective.

https://theconversation.com/can-the...o-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-under-the-law-144739

 

[EvilChuck]

Someone as important as him could surely just get tested everyday (get results in hours and isolate until the results every morning). Weird he’d need to isolate for 2 weeks.

Channel 4 doing a documentary this week about the government's failings, the advert heavily uses the 'world beating test, track and trace system' as part of the advertising. No doubt want to put something out to show how good the system is before the documentary airs, control the narrative and that.

 

[Salt Bailly]

I'm genuinely surprised that he downloaded the app.

 

[jojojo]

I wouldn't worry too much about the crazies.
The national flu vaccination programme runs usually from September to November in the UK. In 2018/19 1.4 million flu jabs were given. 2019/2020 it was 1.71 million. It took just under 2 months into this year's flu programme to beat that 1.7 million number which was easily passed by October end.

I'm confused by those numbers, are they just for your region? I thought 15m+ people in the UK have the flu jab each year or have I misunderstood.

 

[McGrathsipan]

I saw the other day that Ticketmaster have stated that proof of having the vaccine or proof of a negative test result 72 hours before a concert/show will be required to purchase tickets/attend the event.

I think the same will be true of air travel and attending sporting events going forward too.

Nobody will forcibly stick a needle in your arm, but it will be compulsorily to get back to some semblance of normality for most people.

The antivaccine crazies are out in force on Facebook. They seem to be converting a lot of people at the moment

The fact anyone takes information from Facebook is the real issue. My own brother and mother are now experts in all things vaccine related by reading drivel on facebook. And they aren't even reading full articles m. Just skimming and regurgitated "facts" pour out.

So I said to my brother about an anti vax comment ..."who wrote the article and what's his qualification "??

Silence

 

[Wolverine]

I'm confused by those numbers, are they just for your region? I thought 15m+ people in the UK have the flu jab each year or have I misunderstood.

Sorry should have clarified, this is just data from English community pharmacies. Just wanted to comment reg trend

 

[finneh]

Then park your musings at the door. Your inventing nonsensical premises and getting people to expand on them.

Nobody is supporting FORCED vaccination. You’re inventing straw men and turning them into bogeymen.

You voted for people that treat humans like subjects. I see why you think this may manifest, but you voted for them. So stand back and stand by I guess.

Given the fact that the last elected leader for the other guys was responsible for the deaths of several thousand innocent civilians in an illegal war the words: glass, houses and stones comes to mind.

 

[jojojo]

Sorry, I don’t have the name for the test. It is a blood test offered at pharmacies here. It takes about 20 minutes and shows both a line for active virus and a line for antibody presence.

They say it has a 98% hit rate, but who really knows. There is so much we don’t know about the virus, nevermind the way it is tested.

My wife was shown that she tested positive for active virus and told to quarantine for 15 days.

There is a lot of misinformation here, but we have to try and go on what we are being told and try to avoid putting others at risk.

Ah ok. The general principle is that it can take up to 14 days to develop symptoms after infection - more typical is 3-7 days.

The general 14 days advice covers the odd case where it does take that long to get symptoms. But it also helps in the (thought to be more common) situation where you do get it at 4/7 days but are asymptomatic, or have minimal symptoms, but are infective. Some people (mostly travel companies!) suggest that a test at 7 days would be just as safe.

So, I can't give you advice other than try and stick to your local rules, but that's the background reasoning.

 

[11101]

That isn't at all true. Choosing not to vaccinate affects the whole of society because without reaching HIT not only those who choose not to vaccinate are at riskbut you endanger those who often can't be protected directly by a vaccine e.g. immune compromised,very young, aged people

Not vaccinating yourself in general is a deeply selfish act.

There will always be some who refuse any vaccine, as long as they remain in small enough numbers it wont matter. None of the vaccine candidates are yet anywhere near a stage where we could think about pressuring people to take them.


In other news, Italy has traced the virus back to September 2019 - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0300891620974755?journalCode=tmja.
What are the chances this didn't actually come from China, it came from somewhere else and only mutated into something more deadly there.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

In other news, Italy has traced the virus back to September 2019 - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0300891620974755?journalCode=tmja.
What are the chances this didn't actually come from China, it came from somewhere else and only mutated into something more deadly there.

Those results are very hard to believe. Not just present in Sept 2019, present in 14% of people tested. Which is higher than the prevalence they’ve been getting in serology studies during/after the first wave. I’m only seeing the abstract though. The main journal is behind a pay wall. Have you read it?

 

[Badunk]

Hancock on GMB now for the first time in over 200 days getting grilled by Piers Morgan.

 

[Tony Babangida]

There will always be some who refuse any vaccine, as long as they remain in small enough numbers it wont matter. None of the vaccine candidates are yet anywhere near a stage where we could think about pressuring people to take them.


In other news, Italy has traced the virus back to September 2019 - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0300891620974755?journalCode=tmja.
What are the chances this didn't actually come from China, it came from somewhere else and only mutated into something more deadly there.

Most likely rubbish:

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[Pagh Wraith]

Then park your musings at the door. Your inventing nonsensical premises and getting people to expand on them.

Nobody is supporting FORCED vaccination. You’re inventing straw men and turning them into bogeymen.

You voted for people that treat humans like subjects. I see why you think this may manifest, but you voted for them. So stand back and stand by I guess.

I bet you felt really good about yourself after this post and gave yourself a big pat on the shoulder. Someone doesn't agree with my political opinion and is to the right of my own position? Must be bad and evil. This sort of patronising which is so rife in today's world is a cancer to any form of debate and discourse, political or non-political. The fact that the first thing you asked him was "Who did you vote for?" (which is totally irrelevant to his argument against authoritarianism which was quite well laid out whether you agree or disagree) says a lot about you as well. Even more so as the only purpose of that question was to set up your follow-up as you already knew before in which direction his answer was going to go.

 

[jojojo]

They are realistic worries but there should be a lengthy informed consent form (ICF) which will include an FAQ to deal with questions like this. Have a read of that before making any decision.

The ethics of using a placebo in these studies is a hot topic at the moment. Here’s an interesting article on this topic. My own take as a potential participant would be that a 50:50 shot at a potentially effective vaccine several months (or even years?) before you’d get it otherwise is probably worth the risk.

Just to close this loop. I had a call from the Novavax trial team on Saturday. Another set of medical history questions and an opportunity to ask them any questions.

I did ask about the placebo group given the possible roll out of an (approved) vaccine in the first half of next year. The trial protocol says that if there's a vaccine being rolled out to my age group, then I can ask for my trial status - and just return to the NHS appointments list if I'm in the placebo group.

Not surprisingly, it's something they've had to take seriously, particularly since the Pfizer news. So, I'm now scheduled for a mini-medical and Jab 1 (of something) on Wednesday and Jab 2 three weeks later.

 

[11101]

Those results are very hard to believe. Not just present in Sept 2019, present in 14% of people tested. Which is higher than the prevalence they’ve been getting in serology studies during/after the first wave. I’m only seeing the abstract though. The main journal is behind a pay wall. Have you read it?

It is saying 14% of the 11% of positive tests were from September, so 1.5%.

I have read extracts of it that have been published in the news here. What they say is these samples were from October, which means the people must have been infected in September at the latest.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

I'm genuinely surprised that he downloaded the app.

no chance he did, He is just hiding again, like he always does when things get a bit tricky, the fat lazy gormless feckwit.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Whilst we are on the subjects of vaccines, are unvaccinated children allowed in schools or nurseries in England.

 

[Wibble]

Those results are very hard to believe. Not just present in Sept 2019, present in 14% of people tested. Which is higher than the prevalence they’ve been getting in serology studies during/after the first wave. I’m only seeing the abstract though. The main journal is behind a pay wall. Have you read it?

Sounds unbelievable. Always subject to the evidence of course.

 

[Wibble]

There will always be some who refuse any vaccine, as long as they remain in small enough numbers it wont matter. None of the vaccine candidates are yet anywhere near a stage where we could think about pressuring people to take them.


In other news, Italy has traced the virus back to September 2019 - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0300891620974755?journalCode=tmja.
What are the chances this didn't actually come from China, it came from somewhere else and only mutated into something more deadly there.

The moment they pass phase 3 trials is the point they are plenty safe enough.

 

[Tibs]

Another vaccine trial starting in the UK today

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54951650

 

[Smores]

Whilst we are on the subjects of vaccines, are unvaccinated children allowed in schools or nurseries in England.

Yeah they're not able to discriminate against the unvaccinated currently. There was some talk of a ban last year but i don't think it ever materialised.

In the UK without a change in law i can't see any organisation making proof of vaccination mandatory for a service.

You've just got to hope that take up is sufficient that risk can reduced and everything can open. The anti-vac lot will no doubt be the same anti-lockdown folk who moaned about shutting things down yet they won't see that not getting vaccinated could mean restrictions stay around for longer.