SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Garethw said:
The antivaccine crazies are out in force on Facebook. They seem to be converting a lot of people at the moment :(
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I wouldn't worry too much about the crazies.
The national flu vaccination programme runs usually from September to November in the UK. In 2018/19 1.4 million flu jabs were given. 2019/2020 it was 1.71 million. It took just under 2 months into this year's flu programme to beat that 1.7 million number which was easily passed by October end.
 
Garethw said:
I saw the other day that Ticketmaster have stated that proof of having the vaccine or proof of a negative test result 72 hours before a concert/show will be required to purchase tickets/attend the event.

I think the same will be true of air travel and attending sporting events going forward too.

Nobody will forcibly stick a needle in your arm, but it will be compulsorily to get back to some semblance of normality for most people.

The antivaccine crazies are out in force on Facebook. They seem to be converting a lot of people at the moment :(
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Encouraging people to do something is very different making things compulsory, e.g. fine them for not complying, but forcibly injecting people against their will is another level.

An interesting discussion around this issue from an Australian perspective.

https://theconversation.com/can-the...o-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-under-the-law-144739
 
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Andy_Cole said:
Someone as important as him could surely just get tested everyday (get results in hours and isolate until the results every morning). Weird he’d need to isolate for 2 weeks.
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Channel 4 doing a documentary this week about the government's failings, the advert heavily uses the 'world beating test, track and trace system' as part of the advertising. No doubt want to put something out to show how good the system is before the documentary airs, control the narrative and that.
 
Wolverine said:
I wouldn't worry too much about the crazies.
The national flu vaccination programme runs usually from September to November in the UK. In 2018/19 1.4 million flu jabs were given. 2019/2020 it was 1.71 million. It took just under 2 months into this year's flu programme to beat that 1.7 million number which was easily passed by October end.
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I'm confused by those numbers, are they just for your region? I thought 15m+ people in the UK have the flu jab each year or have I misunderstood.
 
Garethw said:
I saw the other day that Ticketmaster have stated that proof of having the vaccine or proof of a negative test result 72 hours before a concert/show will be required to purchase tickets/attend the event.

I think the same will be true of air travel and attending sporting events going forward too.

Nobody will forcibly stick a needle in your arm, but it will be compulsorily to get back to some semblance of normality for most people.

The antivaccine crazies are out in force on Facebook. They seem to be converting a lot of people at the moment :(
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The fact anyone takes information from Facebook is the real issue. My own brother and mother are now experts in all things vaccine related by reading drivel on facebook. And they aren't even reading full articles m. Just skimming and regurgitated "facts" pour out.

So I said to my brother about an anti vax comment ..."who wrote the article and what's his qualification "??

Silence
 
jojojo said:
I'm confused by those numbers, are they just for your region? I thought 15m+ people in the UK have the flu jab each year or have I misunderstood.
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Sorry should have clarified, this is just data from English community pharmacies. Just wanted to comment reg trend
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Then park your musings at the door. Your inventing nonsensical premises and getting people to expand on them.

Nobody is supporting FORCED vaccination. You’re inventing straw men and turning them into bogeymen.

You voted for people that treat humans like subjects. I see why you think this may manifest, but you voted for them. So stand back and stand by I guess.
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Given the fact that the last elected leader for the other guys was responsible for the deaths of several thousand innocent civilians in an illegal war the words: glass, houses and stones comes to mind.
 
Maluco said:
Sorry, I don’t have the name for the test. It is a blood test offered at pharmacies here. It takes about 20 minutes and shows both a line for active virus and a line for antibody presence.

They say it has a 98% hit rate, but who really knows. There is so much we don’t know about the virus, nevermind the way it is tested.

My wife was shown that she tested positive for active virus and told to quarantine for 15 days.

There is a lot of misinformation here, but we have to try and go on what we are being told and try to avoid putting others at risk.
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Ah ok. The general principle is that it can take up to 14 days to develop symptoms after infection - more typical is 3-7 days.

The general 14 days advice covers the odd case where it does take that long to get symptoms. But it also helps in the (thought to be more common) situation where you do get it at 4/7 days but are asymptomatic, or have minimal symptoms, but are infective. Some people (mostly travel companies!) suggest that a test at 7 days would be just as safe.

So, I can't give you advice other than try and stick to your local rules, but that's the background reasoning.
 
Wibble said:
That isn't at all true. Choosing not to vaccinate affects the whole of society because without reaching HIT not only those who choose not to vaccinate are at riskbut you endanger those who often can't be protected directly by a vaccine e.g. immune compromised,very young, aged people

Not vaccinating yourself in general is a deeply selfish act.
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There will always be some who refuse any vaccine, as long as they remain in small enough numbers it wont matter. None of the vaccine candidates are yet anywhere near a stage where we could think about pressuring people to take them.


In other news, Italy has traced the virus back to September 2019 - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0300891620974755?journalCode=tmja.
What are the chances this didn't actually come from China, it came from somewhere else and only mutated into something more deadly there.
 
11101 said:
In other news, Italy has traced the virus back to September 2019 - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0300891620974755?journalCode=tmja.
What are the chances this didn't actually come from China, it came from somewhere else and only mutated into something more deadly there.
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Those results are very hard to believe. Not just present in Sept 2019, present in 14% of people tested. Which is higher than the prevalence they’ve been getting in serology studies during/after the first wave. I’m only seeing the abstract though. The main journal is behind a pay wall. Have you read it?
 
11101 said:
There will always be some who refuse any vaccine, as long as they remain in small enough numbers it wont matter. None of the vaccine candidates are yet anywhere near a stage where we could think about pressuring people to take them.


In other news, Italy has traced the virus back to September 2019 - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0300891620974755?journalCode=tmja.
What are the chances this didn't actually come from China, it came from somewhere else and only mutated into something more deadly there.
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Most likely rubbish:

 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Then park your musings at the door. Your inventing nonsensical premises and getting people to expand on them.

Nobody is supporting FORCED vaccination. You’re inventing straw men and turning them into bogeymen.

You voted for people that treat humans like subjects. I see why you think this may manifest, but you voted for them. So stand back and stand by I guess.
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I bet you felt really good about yourself after this post and gave yourself a big pat on the shoulder. Someone doesn't agree with my political opinion and is to the right of my own position? Must be bad and evil. This sort of patronising which is so rife in today's world is a cancer to any form of debate and discourse, political or non-political. The fact that the first thing you asked him was "Who did you vote for?" (which is totally irrelevant to his argument against authoritarianism which was quite well laid out whether you agree or disagree) says a lot about you as well. Even more so as the only purpose of that question was to set up your follow-up as you already knew before in which direction his answer was going to go.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
They are realistic worries but there should be a lengthy informed consent form (ICF) which will include an FAQ to deal with questions like this. Have a read of that before making any decision.

The ethics of using a placebo in these studies is a hot topic at the moment. Here’s an interesting article on this topic. My own take as a potential participant would be that a 50:50 shot at a potentially effective vaccine several months (or even years?) before you’d get it otherwise is probably worth the risk.
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Just to close this loop. I had a call from the Novavax trial team on Saturday. Another set of medical history questions and an opportunity to ask them any questions.

I did ask about the placebo group given the possible roll out of an (approved) vaccine in the first half of next year. The trial protocol says that if there's a vaccine being rolled out to my age group, then I can ask for my trial status - and just return to the NHS appointments list if I'm in the placebo group.

Not surprisingly, it's something they've had to take seriously, particularly since the Pfizer news. So, I'm now scheduled for a mini-medical and Jab 1 (of something) on Wednesday and Jab 2 three weeks later.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Those results are very hard to believe. Not just present in Sept 2019, present in 14% of people tested. Which is higher than the prevalence they’ve been getting in serology studies during/after the first wave. I’m only seeing the abstract though. The main journal is behind a pay wall. Have you read it?
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It is saying 14% of the 11% of positive tests were from September, so 1.5%.

I have read extracts of it that have been published in the news here. What they say is these samples were from October, which means the people must have been infected in September at the latest.
 
Whilst we are on the subjects of vaccines, are unvaccinated children allowed in schools or nurseries in England.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Those results are very hard to believe. Not just present in Sept 2019, present in 14% of people tested. Which is higher than the prevalence they’ve been getting in serology studies during/after the first wave. I’m only seeing the abstract though. The main journal is behind a pay wall. Have you read it?
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Sounds unbelievable. Always subject to the evidence of course.
 
11101 said:
There will always be some who refuse any vaccine, as long as they remain in small enough numbers it wont matter. None of the vaccine candidates are yet anywhere near a stage where we could think about pressuring people to take them.


In other news, Italy has traced the virus back to September 2019 - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0300891620974755?journalCode=tmja.
What are the chances this didn't actually come from China, it came from somewhere else and only mutated into something more deadly there.
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The moment they pass phase 3 trials is the point they are plenty safe enough.
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
Whilst we are on the subjects of vaccines, are unvaccinated children allowed in schools or nurseries in England.
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Yeah they're not able to discriminate against the unvaccinated currently. There was some talk of a ban last year but i don't think it ever materialised.

In the UK without a change in law i can't see any organisation making proof of vaccination mandatory for a service.

You've just got to hope that take up is sufficient that risk can reduced and everything can open. The anti-vac lot will no doubt be the same anti-lockdown folk who moaned about shutting things down yet they won't see that not getting vaccinated could mean restrictions stay around for longer.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
I bet you felt really good about yourself after this post and gave yourself a big pat on the shoulder. Someone doesn't agree with my political opinion and is to the right of my own position? Must be bad and evil. This sort of patronising which is so rife in today's world is a cancer to any form of debate and discourse, political or non-political. The fact that the first thing you asked him was "Who did you vote for?" (which is totally irrelevant to his argument against authoritarianism which was quite well laid out whether you agree or disagree) says a lot about you as well. Even more so as the only purpose of that question was to set up your follow-up as you already knew before in which direction his answer was going to go.
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Well said.
 
Smores said:
Yeah they're not able to discriminate against the unvaccinated currently. There was some talk of a ban last year but i don't think it ever materialised.

In the UK without a change in law i can't see any organisation making proof of vaccination mandatory for a service.

You've just got to hope that take up is sufficient that risk can reduced and everything can open. The anti-vac lot will no doubt be the same anti-lockdown folk who moaned about shutting things down yet they won't see that not getting vaccinated could mean restrictions stay around for longer.
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I had a chat with the better half about this, she is a paediatrician. She told me they had a measles outbreak in a nursery last year as you get the vaccination when you are one and one of the unvaccinated child came with it in one of the older years. They had 7 cases last December.
 
11101 said:
It is saying 14% of the 11% of positive tests were from September, so 1.5%.

I have read extracts of it that have been published in the news here. What they say is these samples were from October, which means the people must have been infected in September at the latest.
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Ah. Ok. I misread it. Still huge numbers if extrapolated to the general population. They’re studying cancer patients so maybe just in the hospitals back then?
 
jojojo said:
Just to close this loop. I had a call from the Novavax trial team on Saturday. Another set of medical history questions and an opportunity to ask them any questions.

I did ask about the placebo group given the possible roll out of an (approved) vaccine in the first half of next year. The trial protocol says that if there's a vaccine being rolled out to my age group, then I can ask for my trial status - and just return to the NHS appointments list if I'm in the placebo group.

Not surprisingly, it's something they've had to take seriously, particularly since the Pfizer news. So, I'm now scheduled for a mini-medical and Jab 1 (of something) on Wednesday and Jab 2 three weeks later.
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Great stuff. Well done and thank you!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Ah. Ok. I misread it. Still huge numbers if extrapolated to the general population. They’re studying cancer patients so maybe just in the hospitals back then?
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Possibly. These were blood tests from cancer patients in the country's main cancer research hospital, so probably sicker/more immuno-compromised than your average patient too.

Still, whether it was here in November/December (which we know for certain) or September, it raises the question of why it bubbled away for months unnoticed, but within weeks of the first detected case we were seeing overrun hospitals and a thousand deaths a day.
 
11101 said:
Still, whether it was here in November/December (which we know for certain) or September, it raises the question of why it bubbled away for months unnoticed, but within weeks of the first detected case we were seeing overrun hospitals and a thousand deaths a day.
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The simplest explanation is that it didn’t. I wouldn’t read too much into that paper.
 
The DM is expanding it's totally irresponsible campaign for family to be allowed to family to visit relatives in care homes over Christmas, regardless of the risks to their health and the other residents.


kIqn2Nz.jpg


EDIT: The start of the campaign last week.

7fpTEpW.jpg
 
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Pagh Wraith said:
I bet you felt really good about yourself after this post and gave yourself a big pat on the shoulder. Someone doesn't agree with my political opinion and is to the right of my own position? Must be bad and evil. This sort of patronising which is so rife in today's world is a cancer to any form of debate and discourse, political or non-political. The fact that the first thing you asked him was "Who did you vote for?" (which is totally irrelevant to his argument against authoritarianism which was quite well laid out whether you agree or disagree) says a lot about you as well. Even more so as the only purpose of that question was to set up your follow-up as you already knew before in which direction his answer was going to go.
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Yeah I was an ass. Don’t drink and type kids. Got a little fast and loose on the ol’ angry juice

Thematically I stand by it. But it was way too aggressive.
 
jojojo said:
Just to close this loop. I had a call from the Novavax trial team on Saturday. Another set of medical history questions and an opportunity to ask them any questions.

I did ask about the placebo group given the possible roll out of an (approved) vaccine in the first half of next year. The trial protocol says that if there's a vaccine being rolled out to my age group, then I can ask for my trial status - and just return to the NHS appointments list if I'm in the placebo group.

Not surprisingly, it's something they've had to take seriously, particularly since the Pfizer news. So, I'm now scheduled for a mini-medical and Jab 1 (of something) on Wednesday and Jab 2 three weeks later.
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Good luck. Hope you get the good stuff!
 
Wolverine said:
I wouldn't worry too much about the crazies.
The national flu vaccination programme runs usually from September to November in the UK. In 2018/19 1.4 million flu jabs were given. 2019/2020 it was 1.71 million. It took just under 2 months into this year's flu programme to beat that 1.7 million number which was easily passed by October end.
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I've no doubt it's predominantly crazies, but they are attracting a few converts among NHS workers, people who might actually influence others.


Coronavirus: NHS staff join anti-vax group

Hundreds of NHS and care home staff have formed a group opposed to vaccinations, wearing masks and testing in hospitals.

The group, NHS Workers for Choice, No Restrictions for Declining a Vaccine, has gained more than 250 Facebook members in a month. They include a GP, several accident and emergency nurses, healthcare assistants, lab workers, and private and public care home staff.
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-nhs-staff-flock-to-anti-vax-group-k8sq7q63w
 
Modena vaccine with almost 95% effectiveness. Is it time to get excited?
 
BD said:
Modena vaccine with almost 95% effectiveness. Is it time to get excited?
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Definitely light at the end of the tunnel. I think we’re in for a rough couple of months regardless but once we get through it hopefully we can start looking at getting on with our lives.
 
P-Nut said:
The people that follow this will be the same people that would have voted for Kanye in the US elections. Always gets media headlines, but never normally enough to affect anything.
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Hopefully, albeit slightly alarming a number of medical professionals actually seem to be signing up for this nonsense. Not actually seen any interviews with Kanye voters - I bet they were even more silent than the silent Trump supporters.
 
Jippy said:
Hopefully, albeit slightly alarming a number of medical professionals actually seem to be signing up for this nonsense. Not actually seen any interviews with Kanye voters - I bet they were even more silent than the silent Trump supporters.
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I'd put the medical professionals and GPs in the same boat as the gays for trump group. Found a niche they can exploit rather than anything else.

* thought I'd point out now that gays for trump is the term they use, before someone shouts at me for not being politically correct.
 
P-Nut said:
I'd put the medical professionals and GPs in the same boat as the gays for trump group. Found a niche they can exploit rather than anything else.

* thought I'd point out now that gays for trump is the term they use, before someone shouts at me for not being politically correct.
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Maybe. It does get harder and harder to be surprised by humanity's capacity for idiocy.

FT on the Moderna trial
Out of 30,000 participants in the clinical trials, 95 had been identified with confirmed cases of Covid-19, the company said. Among those infected, only five people had received the two-dose vaccine, known as mRNA-1273, while 90 had received a placebo. Moderna said it intended to submit the vaccine for approval by the US Food and Drug Administration “in the coming weeks”, raising the prospect of at least two emergency-approved vaccines before the end of the year.
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https://www.ft.com/content/9d7a2e24-aea0-4c45-82ab-509dc80ed5a1
 
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