SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

P-Ro

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Imagine believing the "...not long now" brigade, only to find yourself faced with fergietime.
 

P-Ro

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Guessing it was a cultural wedding, for example an Indian wedding which are normally huge
It was at an Orthodox Jewish school. The headmaster of that school died in April from covid.
 

DavidDeSchmikes

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So I'm assuming any form of restrictions will be Easter time?
No way is there going to be any relaxation mid February
 

2cents

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Orthodox jews are apparently behind most of the big outbreaks in Israel. Completely refusing to comply with social distancing measures. Which is extremely frustrating for the rest of them.
Just to clarify the terminology, I believe in Israel it has been the ultra-orthodox rather than the orthodox whose response to the pandemic has been problematic. There is actually a significant distinction between them, although I’m not sure how it manifests in the UK.
 

Sandikan

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More contagious and more deadly? FFS.
It's if they find that the vaccines don't work against new strains it'd feel like back to square 1.
Fingers crossed it stays as expected that it works the same against all strains!
 

RedRover

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No ones disputing that, or the general point about a decline in quality of reporting. The BBC should be held to higher journalistic standards than reporting the opinions of idiots as news.

But I do dispute that it cuts one one way, or that the BBC is uniquely interested in portraying this to be a cataclysmically bad event (beyond the general parameters of this being a cataclysmically bad event). For every dickhead like our mate Laura above, a dickhead who was widely criticised across BBC platforms, there's a penis talking about how lockdowns don't work and we should open things back up, an airline boss talking about how quarantines are pointless, a war criminal ex-PM talking about how we should ignore the vaccine guidance and so on. Maybe if we hadn't had so many of the 'it's just the flu' types given platforms across the media 12 months ago we would be in a better position.

By almost every metric we've been one of the worst hit countries in the world, and I'm not sure that's the tenor or tone that comes across in any of the reporting from any of the media in this country. Far from scaremongering, I think the media are pretty quick to paint as rosy a picture as they can. It's just that picture is still shit because the situation is so shit.
I didn't say that they are.

My point is that, whether it's intentional or not, or a "conspiracy", which like you I don't believe it is, its just as damaging. Regardless of whether there is an agenda, that piece is, in my view "scaremongering". If you're parent, that is terrifying and it isn't true. It's also something that is clearly going to get a lot of traction. My opinion is that the individual journalists looking for stories to report, are very well aware of that and the need to be relevant amongst the mountains of news pumped out every day across TV and social media.

The reality is, this is no better that the garbage you're referring to above, and if anything, plays into the hands of the nuggets on Twitter and other platforms who now have a voice. They can point to that and say "See, the BBC are lying to you" and that can't be good for anyone.

If you're going to criticise the people you are criticising you have to criticise the BBC for shit like this. You can't give them a free pass.
 

noodlehair

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How come the supermarkets and shops are so relaxed this time compared to the March lockdown?

First lockdown there were limits on the amount of people in the supermarket, one way systems, people cleaning and aitizing all the baskets and trolleys. This time you can just go into Asda along with half the capacity of Wembley stadium, pick up your corona basket, head up the milk isle in either direction and barge someone's nan out the way to smear your germs over all the Cravendale.

Did it turn out none of this makes any real difference or is it just down to laziness creeping in?

I reckon how many people are in a supermarket at once and how clean things are makes 10x as much difference as whether there's one random idiot not wearing a mask.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Just to clarify the terminology, I believe in Israel it has been the ultra-orthodox rather than the orthodox whose response to the pandemic has been problematic. There is actually a significant distinction between them, although I’m not sure how it manifests in the UK.
Ah. Ok. Interesting. I heard about this from a business colleague in Israel. He may well have said ultra-orthodox but I heard orthodox. He had quite a strong accent!
 

NinjaFletch

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I didn't say that they are.

My point is that, whether it's intentional or not, or a "conspiracy", which like you I don't believe it is, its just as damaging. Regardless of whether there is an agenda, that piece is, in my view "scaremongering". If you're parent, that is terrifying and it isn't true. It's also something that is clearly going to get a lot of traction. My opinion is that the individual journalists looking for stories to report, are very well aware of that and the need to be relevant amongst the mountains of news pumped out every day across TV and social media.

The reality is, this is no better that the garbage you're referring to above, and if anything, plays into the hands of the nuggets on Twitter and other platforms who now have a voice. They can point to that and say "See, the BBC are lying to you" and that can't be good for anyone.

If you're going to criticise the people you are criticising you have to criticise the BBC for shit like this. You can't give them a free pass.
Who is giving them a free pass? I've said it's gutter journalism. Gutter journalism that you correctly diagnose the root issue of, but gutter journalism that was nevertheless corrected.

Is that good enough? Not really, and it's a failure of the BBC's insane approach to balance that encourages them to seek out lunatics on both sides of a debate. I just don't think as an isolated incident an issue whereby someone was given airtime that shouldn't have been and then was swiftly corrected is proof that the entire response has been to sensationalise.
 

DomesticTadpole

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How come the supermarkets and shops are so relaxed this time compared to the March lockdown?

First lockdown there were limits on the amount of people in the supermarket, one way systems, people cleaning and aitizing all the baskets and trolleys. This time you can just go into Asda along with half the capacity of Wembley stadium, pick up your corona basket, head up the milk isle in either direction and barge someone's nan out the way to smear your germs over all the Cravendale.

Did it turn out none of this makes any real difference or is it just down to laziness creeping in?

I reckon how many people are in a supermarket at once and how clean things are makes 10x as much difference as whether there's one random idiot not wearing a mask.
I went to Tesco yesterday, they have a traffic light system. I went early so just walked in as it was pretty empty, I wore my mask, wiped by trolley down, sanitised my hands. They have a security guy there in a mask watching who is coming in. They got rid of the one way system ages ago as it caused more problems than it solved. The only things that seriously gets my goat, is the aisle not being blocked by shoppers, but trolley dollies doing other peoples shopping for them.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I didn't say that they are.

My point is that, whether it's intentional or not, or a "conspiracy", which like you I don't believe it is, its just as damaging. Regardless of whether there is an agenda, that piece is, in my view "scaremongering". If you're parent, that is terrifying and it isn't true. It's also something that is clearly going to get a lot of traction. My opinion is that the individual journalists looking for stories to report, are very well aware of that and the need to be relevant amongst the mountains of news pumped out every day across TV and social media.

The reality is, this is no better that the garbage you're referring to above, and if anything, plays into the hands of the nuggets on Twitter and other platforms who now have a voice. They can point to that and say "See, the BBC are lying to you" and that can't be good for anyone.

If you're going to criticise the people you are criticising you have to criticise the BBC for shit like this. You can't give them a free pass.
I don’t know why you’re obsessing about that one report as though it’s the straw that broke the camel’s back. The dipshits who have been whinging about how lockdowns are unnecessary and the MSM is lying to us made up their mind a long time ago, so that piece of coverage is neither here nor there. Their fixed opinions have everything to do with like-minded dipshits cherry-picking content to share on social media and almost nothing to do with the general thrust of BBC coverage, which has been overwhelmingly accurate and reasonable. Anyone who took all BBC coverage as gospel would be far far better informed than the vast majority of MSM critics.
 

RedRover

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Who is giving them a free pass? I've said it's gutter journalism. Gutter journalism that you correctly diagnose the root issue of, but gutter journalism that was nevertheless corrected.

Is that good enough? Not really, and it's a failure of the BBC's insane approach to balance that encourages them to seek out lunatics on both sides of a debate. I just don't think as an isolated incident an issue whereby someone was given airtime that shouldn't have been and then was swiftly corrected is proof that the entire response has been to sensationalise.
You seemed to justify it in the post I commented on initially is if it wasn't a big deal because it was corrected. It was corrected - as it should be, but because they had little choice, an expert having called them out on it being incorrect. Had he not done so, would they have looked into it any further or moved on to the next story?

If it is an isolated incident that's fair enough, but frankly, the problem comes from the method. Whichever journalist or researcher that was is in a position to get that on national radio, had no issue with the info they had, certainly not enough to actually fact check it properly. You'd expect much, much better from a publicly funded organisation of the BBC's reputation.

My point is that inaccurate news is inaccurate news, whatever the agenda behind it and even if you have no agenda at all. If we can't trust the BBC to report stories accurately then journalism in the UK is properly f****d. Millions of people will accept what they say as the truth but incidents like this erode trust and gives the loonies the fuel to push their own rubbish. My opinion is that this type of stuff has the potential to be more damaging than rubbish posted on social media.
 
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noodlehair

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I went to Tesco yesterday, they have a traffic light system. I went early so just walked in as it was pretty empty, I wore my mask, wiped by trolley down, sanitised my hands. They have a security guy there in a mask watching who is coming in. They got rid of the one way system ages ago as it caused more problems than it solved. The only things that seriously gets my goat, is the aisle not being blocked by shoppers, but trolley dollies doing other peoples shopping for them.
First lockdown here the local Morrisons had a queue system, security guards, someone cleaning all the baskets and trolleys before they were re-used, and were only allowing 1 person in per family unless it was someone who needed assistance.

It's a free for all now. Kids runnign up and down the isles and wiping their snot on all the vegetables (probabably). Queues for all the tills and packed isles....and they've come up with the genius idea of putting the baskets next to the self service checkout so they don't have to bother moving them so people can use them again...but it means you literally have to barge through the queue for the tills to get one.

If there's some scientific data showing all the supermarket precautions mean feck all then fair enough, but I really doubt that's the case since we never had a spell in the first lockdown where supermarkets were just letting people do whatever they want, so there's no way to make a comparison.

I also found it a lot easier to do a weekly shop in one go with the restrictions as once you got into the shop there was no hassle and everything was stocked, where as now it's back to being rage inducing and having to go 3 times just to get all the essentials.
 

Wibble

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Ahh yes. Thanks. Just seen on channel 4 news too.

Would be strange if the mutation got more deadly. Because normally transmission is more effective if a virus is less deadly. But maybe the transmission in younger people is high and it is more dangerous in elderly people. All conjecture of course.
I'm better at biological evolution than viral evolution so I may well be wrong but I'm thinking that being more infectious will increase the spread and being more deadly inside the infectious period will decrease the spread. If the former is greater than the later or increased mortality is after the infectious period, then the new variant can still become the dominant variant in the population.
 

RedRover

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I don’t know why you’re obsessing about that one report as though it’s the straw that broke the camel’s back. The dipshits who have been whinging about how lockdowns are unnecessary and the MSM is lying to us made up their mind a long time ago, so that piece of coverage is neither here nor there. Their fixed opinions have everything to do with like-minded dipshits cherry-picking content to share on social media and almost nothing to do with the general thrust of BBC coverage, which has been overwhelmingly accurate and reasonable. Anyone who took all BBC coverage as gospel would be far far better informed than the vast majority of MSM critics.
I wouldn't say making a handful of comments on a message board is "obsessing" about anything. Am I not allowed to be pissed off by and comment on this?

I suspect there are millions in this country who do take what they hear on the BBC as the gospel truth. As I said above, assuming this is a genuine error, the fact that its possible for that kind of thing to make it to the radio without being properly checked is shocking. They should be held to a higher standard. I expect shit to be put out by the tabloids and by nuggets on twitter but this is genuinely frightening for a parent. It's hard enough parenting during the pandemic as it is. It's irresponsible, and while you are absolutely right that the BBC are probably more accurate than the rest of the MSM, I personally don't think that justifies it.
 

Wibble

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I don’t know why you’re obsessing about that one report as though it’s the straw that broke the camel’s back. The dipshits who have been whinging about how lockdowns are unnecessary and the MSM is lying to us made up their mind a long time ago, so that piece of coverage is neither here nor there. Their fixed opinions have everything to do with like-minded dipshits cherry-picking content to share on social media and almost nothing to do with the general thrust of BBC coverage, which has been overwhelmingly accurate and reasonable. Anyone who took all BBC coverage as gospel would be far far better informed than the vast majority of MSM critics.
But at least we know everything in The Guardian is always correct :angel:
 

Pogue Mahone

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I'm better at biological evolution than viral evolution so I may well be wrong but I'm thinking that being more infectious will increase the spread and being more deadly inside the infectious period will decrease the spread. If the former is greater than the later or increased mortality is after the infectious period, then the new variant can still become the dominant variant in the population.
That’s the thing. This fecking thing takes ages to kill you and starts spreading before you become infectious. The IFR could go up by many multiples without giving it any meaningful evolutionary disadvantage.

I still think covid will become more and more benign but that will be through our our collective immunity evolving, rather than selective pressure on the virus.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I wouldn't say making a handful of comments on a message board is "obsessing" about anything. Am I not allowed to be pissed off by and comment on this?

I suspect there are millions in this country who do take what they hear on the BBC as the gospel truth. As I said above, assuming this is a genuine error, the fact that its possible for that kind of thing to make it to the radio without being properly checked is shocking. They should be held to a higher standard. I expect shit to be put out by the tabloids and by nuggets on twitter but this is genuinely frightening for a parent. It's hard enough parenting during the pandemic as it is. It's irresponsible, and while you are absolutely right that the BBC are probably more accurate than the rest of the MSM, I personally don't think that justifies it.
You’re portraying this piece as some sort of canary in the coalmine that reveals deep flaws in the BBC coverage. It’s no big deal. They produce hundreds of hours of content every week. They’re bound to get led up the garden path every now and then. All they did wrong here was take the words of an experienced senior nurse at face value. It’s not a big deal and doesn’t take away from the quality of their overall pandemic coverage. Which is pretty good.
 

T00lsh3d

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My partner, who’s a frontline worker, had a routine test come back positive today. I went for a test at midday, got it back already to confirm it as positive. 9 hour turnaround. We both feel fine.
What’s amusing is I did a tabata-style workout last night at home.....and I was absolutely blowing. I’d had a big tea and we had the heating on full drying clothes. There was sweat flying everywhere and I’m thinking, “bloody hell this is hard work tonight”. Didn’t know I had the virus :lol:
 

NinjaFletch

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You seemed to justify it in the post I commented on initially is if it wasn't a big deal because it was corrected. It was corrected - as it should be, but because they had little choice, an expert having called them out on it being incorrect. Had he not done so, would they have looked into it any further or moved on to the next story?

If it is an isolated incident that's fair enough, but frankly, the problem comes from the method. Whichever journalist or researcher that was is in a position to get that on national radio, had no issue with the info they had, certainly not enough to actually fact check it properly. You'd expect much, much better from a publicly funded organisation of the BBC's reputation.

My point is that inaccurate news is inaccurate news, whatever the agenda behind it and even if you have no agenda at all. If we can't trust the BBC to report stories accurately then journalism in the UK is properly f****d. Millions of people will accept what they say as the truth but incidents like this erode trust and gives the loonies the fuel to push their own rubbish. My opinion is that this type of stuff has the potential to be more damaging than rubbish posted on social media.
Agreed, but that's the problem with the BBC's interpretation of their remit at the present time. I think it's a dereliction of duty and a complete failure of journalistic integrity, but there you go.

The simple fact is the BBC see their role as giving a voice to both sides of the 'debate'. In this instance, a matron of a children's hospital claimed that their ward was full and that it was being spread wider amongst children, which was published without fact checking on the mistaken belief that she was telling the truth. I also don't if they sought her out, or if she called in to one of the endless talk shows that exist on five live. At any rate, her claims were then coupled with a massive number of people contradicting her, ending up with an article that reads incredibly dismissive of her claims with four experts dismissing them: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55518248


I don't like that approach to journalism, I don't think it's good enough, but it's a symptom of a (in my view) flawed approach to balance rather than an attempt to scare or mislead.
 

Fluctuation0161

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I'm better at biological evolution than viral evolution so I may well be wrong but I'm thinking that being more infectious will increase the spread and being more deadly inside the infectious period will decrease the spread. If the former is greater than the later or increased mortality is after the infectious period, then the new variant can still become the dominant variant in the population.
I get the sense this now has the potential to be like flu. With a different strain every year. But more deadly than flu of course.
 

Penna

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How come the supermarkets and shops are so relaxed this time compared to the March lockdown?

First lockdown there were limits on the amount of people in the supermarket, one way systems, people cleaning and aitizing all the baskets and trolleys. This time you can just go into Asda along with half the capacity of Wembley stadium, pick up your corona basket, head up the milk isle in either direction and barge someone's nan out the way to smear your germs over all the Cravendale.

Did it turn out none of this makes any real difference or is it just down to laziness creeping in?

I reckon how many people are in a supermarket at once and how clean things are makes 10x as much difference as whether there's one random idiot not wearing a mask.
I agree, it has to make a difference. We have rolls of paper towel and disinfectant sprays outside the supermarkets I use, so you can clean your own trolley handle and then use the other gel on your hands. It's the convention here to always wear those thin polythene gloves when picking up fruit and veg, so everyone's used to doing that anyway.
 

Wibble

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I get the sense this now has the potential to be like flu. With a different strain every year. But more deadly than flu of course.
So far we don't have any variants that require a new or adjusted vaccine as far as we know. It isn't impossible that we will but as coronaviruses mutate less/slower than influenza I doubt it will mirror flu with its multiple and rapidly evolving strains.
 
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Wibble

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How come the supermarkets and shops are so relaxed this time compared to the March lockdown?

First lockdown there were limits on the amount of people in the supermarket, one way systems, people cleaning and aitizing all the baskets and trolleys. This time you can just go into Asda along with half the capacity of Wembley stadium, pick up your corona basket, head up the milk isle in either direction and barge someone's nan out the way to smear your germs over all the Cravendale.

Did it turn out none of this makes any real difference or is it just down to laziness creeping in?

I reckon how many people are in a supermarket at once and how clean things are makes 10x as much difference as whether there's one random idiot not wearing a mask.
Contact transmission seems to be a very minor contributor to infection so masks are likely far far more important. That said supermarkets should be following best practice in all respects.

We still have to wear masks and supermarkets provide disinfectant wipes for trolley handles and hand sanitisers and I'm seeing close to 100% compliance here, despite us having zero cases again. We just need to start vaccinating now.

I imagine in the UK compliance fatigue has set in largely due to the government's clueless response and confused messaging. I hope vaccination and spring start to get this thing under control soon.
 
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FootballHQ

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Extremely worrying news about the new variants. It really is not getting better anytime soon is it?
Yeah the variant stuff isn't good at all, just have to hope they don't completely nulify this phase of vaccine rollout at least.

I was optimistically hoping we'd be in the April 2020 phase already. The daily death toll is horrific as it was then but a further two months later things had considerably calmed down and all with vaccine being a distant dream at that point so was hoping this April and even late March would see many counties go back to tier 3 but looks very unlikely, at best may get schools re-opened by then but they'll probably stay shut until after Easter.

Summer just seems so far away at this point compared to last year when it was a sudden and sharp shock but we were only 6 weeks away from some normality. Likes of Whitty did say this wave's peak would plateau much slower than the first and certainly playing out that way.
 

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Is there any expected time frame for when we might see vaccinations in the UK start to help the infection rates decrease etc?
 

FootballHQ

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It's if they find that the vaccines don't work against new strains it'd feel like back to square 1.
Fingers crossed it stays as expected that it works the same against all strains!
Bit of a doomsday question but given we have many good medical guys in the firing line here (which I commend for likes of Hernandez and I think Arruda for still coming on here to post from time to time when they get a spare 5 minutes) what would their gameplan be if the above from Sandi happened. Just hope things calm down for a few months when the temperature rises and then lock down really hard from September e.g. no education at all in group settings or is it time to produce some sort of action plan on living with virus day to day once we get to second part of the year regardless e.g. how to work with virus in mass public groups like tens of thousands in a football stadium? Or is that scenario still years away, same for live music etc.
 

FootballHQ

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Is there any expected time frame for when we might see vaccinations in the UK start to help the infection rates decrease etc?
Hopefully March given the three week lag after first dose (if that still works effectively....!) Does seem a significantly higher amount of under 50s being hospitalized this time compared to first wave so will be interested to see the percentages if they're available online so just vaxing the over 70s won't solve everything in short run.
 

Stack

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Hopefully March given the three week lag after first dose (if that still works effectively....!) Does seem a significantly higher amount of under 50s being hospitalized this time compared to first wave so will be interested to see the percentages if they're available online so just vaxing the over 70s won't solve everything in short run.
Thats faster than I expected, good news if it happens. Cheers
 

FootballHQ

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Thats faster than I expected, good news if it happens. Cheers
I'm only a layman term guy on this thread so don't take it as gospel. :lol: Wibble and co would give more detailed breakdown I'm sure. Just assuming by March 20m + will have had at least one dose and that will surely start to make significant different to the daily rate. Estimate tonight was the peak was still a week or two away so nothing is improving this month anyway.
 

noodlehair

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Contact transmission seems to be a very minor contributor to infection so masks are likely far far more important. That said supermarkets should be following best practice in all respects.

We still have to wear masks and supermarkets provide disinfectant wipes for trolley handles and hand sanitisers and I'm seeing close to 100% companies here despite us having g zero cases again. We just need to start vaccinating now.

I imagine in the UK compliance fatigue has set in largely due to the government's clueless response and confused messaging. I hope vaccination and spring start to get this thing under control soon.
I mean it didn't really take a genius to know that things would be tougher in the winter than the summer and that fatigue would set in by then. There hasn't been a point since covid surfaced where there was any reason to believe it wouldn't behave like other viruses and come in waves..and even without fatigue the winter was always going to be tougher for people restrictions wise due to the lack of daylight hours, colder temperatures, etc.

Places like supermarkets though are where you can put control measures in place so people have no choice, and actually waiting in a queue for 10 minutes to get in a supermarket was very little hassle. Particularly as half that time was made up not having to feck about longer or wait in queues once you were inside...and even more time than that saved by it being easier and insentivised to do all your shoppnig in one go (going to a supermarket 3 times a week as opposed to 1 is also an infection risk factor).

Masks still confuse me really. I've seen plenty of knowledgeable people explain why they are important, but the infection numbers and the places infections seem to occur in (according to the data) just don't back it up at all. If they were that important for example then not wearing them in a school or workplace, but then wearing them to go in a shop, makes absolutely no sense...and they'd also have had a tangible impact on numbers in places like London with the amount of people on public transport every day...and they just haven't. They either just don't very much or we are using them stupidly.

I mean here for example there was a high proportion back in March-June of the type of idiot who made a point of not wearing one, yet through the whole first wave the infection rate here remained low and rose very moderately compared to other areas of the country. THen in December when there was generally a lot more compliance it's shot up here faster than anywhere in the Country including London. Hard to put a finger on why but it does suggest there's far more significant factors at play than how many people are wearing masks when they are told to.
 

Wibble

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I'm only a layman term guy on this thread so don't take it as gospel. :lol: Wibble and co would give more detailed breakdown I'm sure. Just assuming by March 20m + will have had at least one dose and that will surely start to make significant different to the daily rate. Estimate tonight was the peak was still a week or two away so nothing is improving this month anyway.
Sounds about right to me. Like many things in this shitshow the exact peak will only be really obvious in retrospect though. You would hope that vaccination combined with the restrictions and improving weather will break the back of this wave and then hopefully see a rapid return to something approaching normality.
 

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Masks were only actually made compulsory on public transport in mid June and public places and Supermarkets in mid July which really surprised me when I looked back a few weeks ago considering case rates were already declining at that stage and many people were out and about on beaches and other public places from late May.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...datory-in-shops-and-supermarkets-from-24-july

Perhaps the question is are the ones the majority of public are currently wearing the most effective to stop catching covid. Generally in my area mask wearing is pretty high even in outdoor settings when I walked 2-3 times a week down the hill to local town centre and people coming back with shopping all usually still have masks on.
 

Pogue Mahone

Poster of the year 2008 & 2020
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
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"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Bit of a doomsday question but given we have many good medical guys in the firing line here (which I commend for likes of Hernandez and I think Arruda for still coming on here to post from time to time when they get a spare 5 minutes) what would their gameplan be if the above from Sandi happened. Just hope things calm down for a few months when the temperature rises and then lock down really hard from September e.g. no education at all in group settings or is it time to produce some sort of action plan on living with virus day to day once we get to second part of the year regardless e.g. how to work with virus in mass public groups like tens of thousands in a football stadium? Or is that scenario still years away, same for live music etc.
If we discover new strains are resistant to the vaccine it can be tweaked in a fraction of the time it took to make a vaccine from scratch. Probably just a few weeks. They have to make vaccines for new strains of influenza every season. So it definitely won’t be the end of the world. Just a lot harder to get herd immunity. Which means the virus is here to stay, albeit at much lower levels.