SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Foxbatt

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Not true. Dr. Li Wenliang, from Wuhan, tried to warn his colleagues about an outbreak similar to SARS in late December after having treated multiple patients with unexplained pneumonia who visited the wet market. Instead of acting, the authorities summoned and disciplined him for spreading rumors and making "false" comments on the internet. He died of the virus a month later.
This is where you get it a bit wrong. Dr. Li did mention about a new virus to the Wuhan health authorities. He and other doctors were warned not to say things like that by the Wuhan authorities. Even the Wuhan police threatened him too. But that was not the central government authorities. Once they came to know about it they sent an investigation team to find out what was going on. By January they realised that this was a new virus and dangerous. In January also Chinese government informed WHO about it. In January Chinese doctors and scientists wrote in the Lancet medical journal about this new virus. The medical journal then informed the British government about this article. The British government ignored it.
Yes the Chinese took their eyes off the ball but western governments have no excuse because they had 3 months notice of what was going on in China and should have taken measures to stop it.
The Chinese high court has also reprimanded the Wuhan authorities for their treatment of Dr.Li and has been praised by the central government.
 

United58

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I mean we all had our suspicions during the last few elections and whatnot but this has really hammered home that a large % of the population is thick/ignorant/arrogant. Christ
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realise that half of all people are more stupid than that
 

Mr Pigeon

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Why do celebrities feel the need to speak up about matters way outside their fields of expertise? On here & elsewhere, as a non-famous person, I can afford to recklessly give my opinion on things; but if I was famous, there's no way I'd inflict my ignorant and naive views about serious matters onto the public.
Speak for yourself. I once met Neil Buchanan at Sea World.
 

Arruda

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They spent , at least, 2 months denying it and putting doctors that spoke about it in prison. Then after publicly acknowledging it in January they still allowed people to travel abroad. Think think think
None of that is true.

Let me explain you how things work in Medicine.

- Doctors treat patients, even when they don't know what they have. One of these conditions would be called "pneumonia of unknown etiology" or something to that effect. It happens pretty often, here and there.

- By mid-December doctors in Wuhan got concerned about a cluster of patients with this sort of pneumonia; on the 18th there were 8 patients identified. One patient isn't enough, neither are two... You, as a frontline doctor, need a reasonable amount of "strange" clinical cases to even realize something is wrong, so that the specialists who study this kind of outbreak can be called upon to act.

- Genetics, mode of transmission, epidemiology, take some time to study. There may have been many occasions where perhaps wrong decisions were made and time was lost but this is not only expected, it's unavoidable. It takes time to be sure what you're dealing with.

- China started imposing measures in Wuhan very fast, and by 23rd January the city was in full lockdown. This was insanely swift, given that the knowledge of the disease was still being compiled. The results are there for everyone to see. They contained it, after extending measures to other cities. They took maybe two weeks to decide this. When you compare the magnitude of the decision (Economics), and how long western countries are taking to make the same decisions, there is no way it's hypocritical to criticize western leaders. They were far slower, with plenty more information. Do you really think if the outbreak had been in one of these countries it would have been better contained than China? No way.

- After all this is done, "backtracing" allowed them to conclude that the first confirmed patient was in the 1st of December. This is hindsight. Not knowledge at the time. We may even conclude in the future that first patients were in October in some random village in the mountains. Without large clusters it would be natural they would have gone undetected on a national scale, let alone studied. This is why you "heard" of a virus in November. You heard it now, not then.

- No doctors were arrested, or at least there is no reasonable evidence pointing towards this. What we do know is that a doctor, named Li Wenliang, was among the first persons to understand the world-changing nature of the outbreak being studied and try to speak publicly about it. I don't even know if he realized this because he had access to higher-level preliminary information or just out of his own reasoning (just like many "early warner" doctors did a bit everywhere - including, modesty aside, me in my own country, at a much lower and quieter level).

- Li Wenliang wasn't arrested. He was called by local government officials and told to shut up. Then he returned to his normal life and work, util he got ill and died - in absolute freedom (well, as absolute as freedom can be in a country like China)

- Silencing someone may look more daunting because it came from an autocratic country, but from a Public Health perspective it may very well be reasonable. I wish my government did the same around here with all the naysayers that have been causing damage. In hindsight, in China they were wrong, but the principle is the same.

- There will be a gazillion of unexplained small things in here, after all it's China, we are very distant from them, even at a cultural and communication level. It's stupid to conclude from these failures that they could have contained this. It's expecting more from them than you expect from your own leaders. All that matters from politics here is how they relate to Public Health, and on this, the Central Chinese Government has been spot on (so far) and fast. Mostof those "silencing" issues came from local government, run-of-the-mill local crap leaders, which exist everywhere

- Lots more to be said, but it's tiring. I've been thinking of writing a well thought and referenced artocle about this, but have had trouble focusing.

[Opinion, not facts]
- Don't fall for Propaganda. Fake news of "8 arrested doctors" and country-wide cover-up have been popping everywhere for weeks, bit increasing severely now. For anyone who has been studying this for weeks it's pretty obvious what the goal is - deflect blame from western leaders, who were, with no exceptions, far more inept than the Chinese at protecting their people.
 
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Drifter

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Why are the coffee shops open? Ridiculous to shut pubs and restaurants and leave coffee shops and tea shops open.They all serve some kind of food, so they should be closed. And chippies? :rolleyes:
They have quick take away services.
 

justboy68

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Not true. Dr. Li Wenliang, from Wuhan, tried to warn his colleagues about an outbreak similar to SARS in late December after having treated multiple patients with unexplained pneumonia who visited the wet market. Instead of acting, the authorities summoned and disciplined him for spreading rumors and making "false" comments on the internet. He died of the virus a month later.
That's true. It's a bit more complicated but equally bad. The local government suppressed it because if any trouble appears on your watch then you will very likely pay for it. Since then Beijing took over and have been handling it with the lockdown measures etc that we've seen. As I've posted before, China basically acted how you would expect. Terrible suppression and manipulation of speech initially, but also damn effective at mobilising and getting things done when they need to.

It is not mutually exclusive to criticise China for the poor hygiene standards in wet markets, as well as their initial response (in fact, many Chinese people have done exactly this), while also thinking our responses in Europe and the USA, both governmental and societal, have been subpar. It is not an either/or.
This is also true. Everyone knows the initial Chinese response was bad and even the CCP have acknowledged that. However this virus was well known about since early January. The west had all the time in the world to prepare for it, but they didn't want to, plain and simple. This is also not really surprising. Few governments come out of this looking good.

I have no idea where people get the confidence from that other countries would have handled an initial outbreak that much better. Didn't we just have governments saying a few weeks ago that it wasn't such a big deal? Not so different to the flu? Don't we still have many governments purposely fudging the numbers and statistics? Most countries wouldn't have suppressed it in the same way as the CCP did, but many would have certainly tried to downplay it to avoid economic turbulence and probably would have held off longer on implementing strict lockdown measures. I mean that's exactly what most did anyway! Even more reason to believe they would have done it in the initial stages when nothing really was understood about the virus.

Now I'm by no means trying to defend the CCP, far, far from it. The point is, shifting all of the blame to China is exactly what the self-serving, corrupt or inept leaders elsewhere want people to do. So that they can carry on shafting the common folk once this is over without facing the scrutiny that they deserve at home. Systematic dismantling of the NHS being an example. Demand better and don't fall for it.
 

Dr. Dwayne

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Looks like a moron. Sounds like a moron. Chances are -- he is an absolute moron.
Can someone tell Le Tiss that there's a vaccine available for the flu and your government strongly recommends people get it? Lots do but many more don't, which is a contributing factor in the number of flu deaths every year.
 

Arruda

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If you believe that the Chinese Government did not know from their wing in Hubei Province in November, December at the latest that there was a rapidly spreading virus in Wuhan then you also believe in the tooth fairy. As it stands the Chinese Government for some time has had the most intense surveillance system of their citizens and residents ever witnessed in human history.
You should be wiser than call me naive on this. Read my long post above and re-think. There are ways to investigate this other than reading the increasingly shitty mainstream media.
 

Arruda

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Not true. Dr. Li Wenliang, from Wuhan, tried to warn his colleagues about an outbreak similar to SARS in late December after having treated multiple patients with unexplained pneumonia who visited the wet market. Instead of acting, the authorities summoned and disciplined him for spreading rumors and making "false" comments on the internet. He died of the virus a month later.
Like ryansgirl, I refer you to my long post above.
 

Utdstar01

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Seems John Lewis and a lot of retailers are trying to make the most out of Mothers day before they close.
 

Drifter

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Pharmacy criticised for selling '60p paracetamol' for £6 during UK coronavirus outbreak


That's capitalism.
 

Amar__

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First death in Bosnia, older woman(72-3 year old), she was admitted to hospital yesterday but only tested now after the death from my understanding, she was positive for Covid-19. Also had a history of multiple complications before. Around 100 cases here so far, but more than 6000 in strict home quarantine.
 

Amar__

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Magnificent list of completely unbiased sources.
Why do you keep denying the sources? What's your source of denying it?

Also how do you explain illegal wet markets in China for years? Are they even illegal? How can a public market be illegal actually? It' pretty obvious the chinese authorities wouldn't care too much about them.
 

Arruda

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Why do you keep denying the sources? What's your source of denying it?

Also how do you explain illegal wet markets in China for years? Are they even illegal? How can a public market be illegal actually? It' pretty obvious the chinese authorities wouldn't care too much about them.
It's not the sources themselves, it's how they are chosen. That's what you find when you google something like "chinese cover-up of coronavirus". Do you think this is a reasonable way of informing yourself? You're entering yourself into an echo-chamber if you approach any subject that way.

And then people approach them without context. Yes, it may very well be true that local health officials destroyed samples of the virus, but does that really goes against anything I've said? Dozens of labs would have been studying that virus, I expect (it's genome was still known almost immediately after that), and it falls under the umbrella of the many "mistakes" I pointed above. Scared and stupid officials afraid of the consequences of an outbreak and in denial. In the end, how can you calculate the difference it made in the end? A few days?


As for wet markets, what I've read is that they were made illegal a few years ago, but these restrictions were slowly eased-up due to lobbying. I am not sure of this, but t's what I remember.

Yes, it's a feck up, they clearly miscalculated the risk of these markets. But we're all blaming them in hindsight, it's like becoming anti-nuclear only after Chernobyl.
 

JPRouve

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Why do you keep denying the sources? What's your source of denying it?

Also how do you explain illegal wet markets in China for years? Are they even illegal? How can a public market be illegal actually? It' pretty obvious the chinese authorities wouldn't care too much about them.
As far as I know wet markets aren't illegal. Some markets sell illegal things but that's true in all countries.
 

Dr. Dwayne

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It's not the sources themselves, it's how they are chosen. That's what you find when you google something like "chinese cover-up of coronavirus". Do you think this is a reasonable way of informing yourself? You're entering yourself into an echo-chamber if you approach any subject that way.

As for wet markets, what I've read is that they were made illegal a few years ago, but these restrictions were slowly eased-up due to lobbying. I am not sure of this, but t's what I remember.

Yes, it's a feck up, they clearly miscalculated the risk of these markets. But we're all blaming them in hindsight, it's like becoming anti-nuclear only after Chernobyl.
Indeed. Blaming China isn't going to keep anyone alive.
 

djembatheking

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We have got no chance in the UK , there are 2 holiday homes in our village and both have got families in . Social distancing my feckin arse .
 

Sarni

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Apparently nearly 600 died today in Lombardy alone. Italy will reach 800 today and will exceed 1,000 deaths per day within a week. This is shocking.
 

Camy89

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I think people in the UK have a deeply ingrained 'It won't happen to me' attitude.

That is a dangerous and selfish approach towards this.
 

djembatheking

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The government need to grow a pair, rapidly, and move away from advisory bollocks to a proper lockdown.
Dead right , Bangor hospital serves all of Anglesey and most of North Wales , ICU is already at its limit , we are fecked.
 

4bars

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Apparently nearly 600 died today in Lombardy alone. Italy will reach 800 today and will exceed 1,000 deaths per day within a week. This is shocking.
With this progresion they will reach it tomorrow or after tomorrow.

Spain progresion is worse. Even being 2 weeks behind, they will reach 1000 deaths in 5-6.

tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands will die among the 2 countries. Probably millions in plural just in europe. Like flue my ass
 

C'est Moi Cantona

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Surely the Italian numbers will drop in the next week or so, they are all locked in aren't they? This must be the delayed reaction.
 

4bars

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Surely the Italian numbers will drop in the next week or so, they are all locked in aren't they? This must be the delayed reaction.
They should drop as long as they are not asholes like in Spain that this weekend tried to go to their second residence. Will see how good the lock down had been. I chinese doctor based there said that they are not doing enough
 

momo83

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Lots of people saying retail shots are very busy. I think this is just people trying to be normal, it’s not about “feck the virus” or “won’t happen to me” people are not used to being in chains.

Best thing the government can do is close all retail shops. But allow people to still go out their homes.. enforce no lingering outside laws, so people outside are only walking either for exercise or to get from a-b and most people are lazy feckers once that’s done they’ll rather stay at home.
 
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momo83

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Surely the Italian numbers will drop in the next week or so, they are all locked in aren't they? This must be the delayed reaction.
great point. Unless if there’s something we don’t yet understand about the virus it doesn’t make sense.

Only thing I can think off, is that Mediterranean family households tend to be bigger you might have adult brothers and sisters living with parents and grand parent etc so it’s possibly the virus stays in one house and spreads from person to person over the the month.

So the whole two week thing doesn’t apply.