He's a pundit not a doctor!
Scholes the Pundit
- Thread starter gooDevil
- Start date
They are not contradictory but they need to be in balance. United at the moment look a team that is too big on theory and short on the more basic skills of motivation/getting the players to buy into the vision. Liverpool, on the other hand, had the right mix last night.
@Dr. Funkenstein It definitely isn't. That was just my theory as to why you get this almost phobia like reaction out of anything remotely intellectual football wise in this country. I remember when Arsene Wenger came to England, the snide remarks about the glasses and professor like demeanour. The same happened with LvG since day one over here. Yes he failed and Arsene has been failing for some time but you can sense the pleasure out of bringing down these fancy Europeans. I've heard some suggest that because we invented the game, there is the attitude of how dare they tell us how to play it. I myself think is that football in this country has always been considered a purely physical contest as in it's about pace, strength, energy and so on. When someone tries to make it about things like movement, positioning or whatever, there is a cautious suspicious attitude. Of course things are changing and English football is not what it used to be like but through the presence of the old school pundits, that line of thought is far from gone.
And why is it when people try to think deeply about football, it is 'faux intelligence' or 'over-intellectualising' or some other patronising rubbish like that? It is almost as if people are not expected to think too much about how the game is played or should be played.
Scholes was absolutely spot on with his comments last night. The players, manager and most importantly the board need to be told that the way things are at the moment is completely unacceptable.
Would you rather Scholes sat there and went "yeah yeah, despite the score we were great!" ?.
Scholes has also given support to LVG. In fact, he was still supporting LVG when most on here wanted him sacked. Criticizing someone does not mean you don't support them. Surely, this isn't too difficult to grasp? When does criticizing someone mean you are trying to put a spanner in the works. People might have had some sort of point if he was saying anything out of the ordinary but he was making points that were fairly obvious to anyone who watched us. He said it all the way back in November that we would end up in a scenario where DDG would end up as our POTY again. Got tons of abuse for it but guess what....he'll be right come may or close enough to not make a difference.
We were absolutely crap to watch for most of the season. We only started playing decent football in the new year and have now gone back to playing crap.
Scholes has criticized Rooney plenty. People get their knickers in a twist when anybody has the nerve to point out that Rooney is in fact not shite and the root of all our problems because they are so blinkered by hate. As always, Scholes was spot on. Playing as a main striker in this system is as good as a death sentence.
Didn't say he should behave like a doctor. Just that he should behave like a good pundit should: maintain a professional distance, be more measured and thoughtful in analysis. Scholes is a shit pundit not least because he wants to talk as if he is just a fan. Well, he isn't just a fan; you can find millions of those anywhere in the country, even here on the Caf. He is being paid very well to analyse the game and provide the sort of insight people who are 'just fans' can't.
He's a great pundit. People who criticise him have low footballing intelligence.
No he is getting paid for giving his opinion and believe me it's far more interesting than most
You are talking out your hole
Moyes would say something similar whenever people questioned what he was trying to do.
To me it seems Scholes is a perfect case study in demonstrating the difference between football intelligence and intelligence in general. A genuis on the field, thick as a plank off it.
Scholes is my favourite United player, btw.
Actually I think it does. Being overpaid suggests the reward is disproportionate to the service provided. This suggests the service being provided is not judged to be all that great. This can mean one of two things: it is not interesting or it is not that hard to replicate. We know it is interesting since people keep paying to watch it so yes I think if you dissect the complain, that's what you end up with.
Judging achievements is a futile exercise as each demands a different set of talents. If Allardyce keeps Sunderland up is quite an achievement but so will be Enriqué's if he wins another CL. How can one judge which is greater when the talents it take to achieve each are so different? I am not really sure but I'd be interested if you have a reliable criteria. SAF belonged to a category of management who focused more on the managing aspect of the game. This is especially the case for SAF who left the coaching to others. We should not forget that SAF's greatest achievements were domestic so they came in a footballing culture that shared his relative disregard to complicated tactics. One can easily argue that he never produced a team that has truly dominated European football. Does that make him anything less than an absolute monster? Of course not, he still maybe the greatest manager ever when all factors are considered. But it means he still like everybody else had flaws. So I find using him as an example here irrelevant as you can come up with all sort of names who perfected certain aspects of the game over others.
If you truly think that's all that can be said, you cannot justify the existence of pundits. Why aren't networks sticking a microphone in the face of pub goers then? It'll save them and the tax payers a lot of money while maintaining the same quality of service. If that is what you think, then you are actually consistent in your line of thought. I happen to disagree and think I as an average fan cannot possibly know the nuances of football or any other field as much as a professional so I look at them to educate me which is Scholes is a disappointment as a pundit.
How is it interesting when every man and his dog can see and say the same thing? The only reason people listen is because of he was as a player. He was a great player. He is a shit pundit.
And you come up with this conclusion how?
What scholes says makes headlines and gets people talking.
And he is giving a very honest account of what is taking place.
An in depth tactical analys from scholes would not make headlines and far less people would care what he had to say
And when Gary Neville does in depth tactical analysis he gets criticized as well because people don't agree with him.
If only we had some characters like Scholes in the squad telling it like it is instead of pansies like Mata giving out 'hugs'.
I mean when was the last time you saw one of our players having a go at a team mate? They're all pathetic.
I mean when was the last time you saw one of our players having a go at a team mate? They're all pathetic.
You are right that English football has traditionally been suspicious of such developments (witness the various Neanderthals the FA has appointed as technical directors) but the pendulum has almost swung too much the other way. People like Bielsa who have won basically feck all in a 30 year career get lionised whereas even Fergie is routinely patronised over his tactical skills. Ultimately football is played by a team of humans of various personalities with their idiosyncrasies and vulnerabilities. The ability to motivate them and have the whole performing above the sum of the parts is the still the key, most elusive skill (call it getting them to show passion/commitment in the old-fashioned parlance) rather than the ability to set out players on a board like chess pieces.
This is exactly why I think he is shit pundit: His analysis shouldn't be about grabbing headlines; it should be about revealing something that us, non-experts, cannot see. Of course, it should be honest. But you shouldn't confuse honesty with facile, tabloid like commentary. I for one would listen to Scholes if he put in some real work, took his time to do in-depth analysis, rather than just speaking his mind.
Oh, that's just my personal opinion.
Based on what exactly?
(heads up before reading my answer, I'm a bit affected by painkillers now, so i'm likely gonna ramble)
I was on LvG's back as far back as December 2014 (not that I'm saying that I was in the right to be negative already there), so it was more a case of a pundit agreeing with me rather than the other ones saying he needed more time.
Back then I was on some experimental drugs, so I was easily angered, and the stuff we served up and the lack of any sort of direction our play was going annoying me to no end.
I'm not saying the people back then were in the wrong to support him (LvG), but I don't think Scholes sharing his view on it warranted the "abuse" he got.
When people said he was a horrible pundit who were joining in on the abu, it was pathetic. When people said he didn't offer an informative analysis I defended him, but I wasn't angered by the people who wanted him to do that, as they were fair in asking for it. But the people who were just throwing insults at him did annoy me.
People who wanted him to criticize Rooney illogically annoy me, because they yell at him for being negative but at the same time ask him to be negative about the player they feel deserve it.
He's not attacked Martial seen from my point of view, he's said we shouldn't rely on the young man, which sounds more like defending him. Saying he should be 2nd, 3rd or 4th choice as the lone striker was more a go at the quality of our other options rather than a go at his qualities.
Personally, I think that if people got at LvG's back earlier, we might've fired him by now and gotten in a manager who might actually do well or at least progress and make plans for next season. That said, I've also said I hope he turns it around and proves me wrong - I always do, in the recent post about what he could do to sway some of us naysayers, I said he could win the League (back when we seemed to be hitting some form) as I'd see that as me just not noticing the progress that would've been there. I'm open to being completely in the wrong, but that doesn't mean that I'll throw my lack of faith in the manager out of the window and blindly support him. (but I do respect the people who are able to, as long as they can make arguments as to why people should rally behind him)
The team were atrocious last night. I can't remember players being so insipid and uninspired to wear the shirt. I remember the 70's and 80's....sometimes maybe quite often we played poorly, but never ever did we not try, did the team not sweat. Atkinson, Docherty (ok..Sexton we were a bit dull at times but never lackadaisical). I think we are unrecognisable as a United team - too many changes happened too fast. Too many new players brought in a short time that can't even begin to understand the club's DNA. It happened to Liverpool...it's happening to us.
Judgment, on listening to him as a pundit. I was expecting Rio to be the one lacking in critical thinking skills but he is, in fact, much better; he is showing up Scholes, if you ask me.
I see what you are saying based on last night, he was very involved and almost behaving like one of us on here after the loss! But I don't think it's such a bad thing as you had mcmamaman next to him talking as if Liverpool are the new Barcelona, completely ignoring the fact they scraped a win vs CP at the weekend. It does make it a bit more interesting to have basically fans as pundits. I'd rather have Scholes and Rio slagging off United than shearer and savings!
The Rooney hate on here is laughable, you were probably blaming him for last night too, our worst player in every match??? this is why you cant be taken seriously, has he had a good season, no, has he been our worst player? no. Is he our top scorer? yes. Is it near impossible to look good as a striker in this setup yes. The dream of Martial playing through the middle, how many goals we got the last few games??? and for the record I think Martial is excellent and will go on to be our long term striker for 10 years plus, the fact is at this point in time we still need Rooney, he's still key.
Pundits can be wrong and right at times of course but what he said about the Liverpool was absolutely spot on.
You do have a point there. You see it happen all the time in all walks of life. Someone tries to overcompensate for a perceived weakness to the point of going too far the other way. I don't really think English has necessarily reached that point but I do think English football is a bit confused at the moment in trying to maintain what makes it stand out and adopt some more tactical sophistication from abroad. Nobody seems to know where the line should be and I do sympathize since that is a huge challenge. I think the Germans did a brilliant job back in the early '00s when they collected different ideas from footballing people around the world including Arsene Wenger and had their clubs hire footballing personalities like LvG, Klopp, Guardiola with the result being a much more modern and sophisticated German team that still maintains its "Germanity".
The qualities you mention are certainly essential and I don't think they are disappearing any time soon. They do apply to any field really. I think SAF for example could easily be a great manager of any company, restaurant or anything that involves leading people and dealing with challenges. Whether that works more or better than the chess board method as you put it is another issue. We'd have to talk about what are we looking for and in what context. What worked in English football in the '90s is not necessarily what worked in the late '00s. With all his masterful managing skills and a top team to boast, SAF still did fail in Europe for a long time and it is widely reported that he needed the help of a chess board type of coach in Queiroz to get to that next step. So I think different skills lead to different outcomes. Some are more suited to certain contexts and cultures. The best teams and nations manage to have a balance of everything that works for them. Achieving that balance is easier said than done though.
I stopped there and laughed. But then I cried
I definitely don't mean that we supporters have settled for being the next Arsenal, but it seems to me the board has.
The summer transfers were fine as far as they went, though I would like to have seen a CB brought in...Laporte was there for the taking. But the LVG problem never got resolved and he's putting out the same tumescent, predictable style of play as last season...with the same results.
Off topic clearly, and apologies for rambling on.
Rooney, currently the most senior member of the team. The captain of the club. When the going got tough, Rooney just fecking sat and did nothing. It's not blind hate. It's LVG's silliness which pisses me off making Rooney the captain. Fergie had rightly decided to get him out of the club.
Remind me, how many goals did LVG say Rooney will score this season? How many has he scored and in how many games this season would you give Rooney a 8/10? If not Rooney then who has been our worst player?
He has been played in multiple positions to see if there is any postion he can contribute from and he still has come up short. When you say "has he had a good season?" and end it with a casual no then there is no point discussion this.
He should have stood up to be counted as the captain of the club. He just let the team slide instead of being leaders for the club and being the most experienced.
Yesterday United were pathetic and LVG being the manager has to take the rap for it. But when Rooney was fit, in a match he invariable gave the ball away in good positions, did not even get invovled in the play, did not know how to take the first touch of the football. Just ran around doing nothing.
Make no mistake. LVG has been bad for the club. But having no leaders in the team have made United in to an impotent team which has no character.
Scholes was like "What are United doing? They are hardly involving one of the best strikers in the premier league. They need to pass it to him more" Oh my god.
Ideally, Martial and Rashford should be the future and Rooney should just have some shame and leave. He has been a great player for United. A great player.
But his antics were unbearable and now without his football, he is a nuisance to this club. So i am sorry if i don't accept that he is a key player. He quite simply sucks.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...verpool-wouldn-t-stood-says-Paul-Scholes.html
More from Scholes, all of it spot on.
More from Scholes, all of it spot on.
So he says United need to tackle a lot. Doesn't make much sense. I understand where he is coming from. And i think he knows it too that United just won't win against Liverpool who have a two goal cushion. Other than that he is right with what he says
He is right when he said that when he was playing and a team came in at Old Trafford with a 2-0 lead he would still have hope for winning. Where have those days gone
This team has no game plan, no hope. no scope. Going to be another long night.
Scholes is fast becoming the Donald Trump of angry, frustrated, United supporters. "He says what we all want to say, its just in his position, he's not supposed to say it." disclaimer : I neither agree with nor support Donald Trump and his views
Whenever I hear Scholes and even when I agree with his complaints, he doesn't really seem to offer any proper solutions beyond 'pass faster' or 'pass to Rooney'.
That's my complaint with Scholes as well. It's well and good to state the obvious we all see, but if he's going to be relevant as a commentator he has to offer solutions.
LVG will ignore Scholes, no doubt, but I'd like to see Scholes point the way forward, not just bitch and moan. I have my ideas, but I'd like to hear his ideas.
My view on this.
Scholes is meant to be a pundit objectively analysing the game. That's a technical job requiring someone with good tactical nous and an understanding derived from having played at the top level. Gary Neville is superb at it and is always worth listening to.
Scholes is not in his class as a pundit and despite his quality as a player, he's just another ex pro trading on his fame to earn a buck. Let's face it, what else would he do? He's hardly the sharpest tool in the box. His only redeeming feature is that he's not as painfully inept as Owen.
However, last night he became an embittered fan. That may make headlines once, maybe twice. After that he is ignored as a whining twat. If he wants to be an embittered fan he should seek out Full Time Devils where last nights sourness would properly be better placed. As for his dig at Wenger, wholly inexcusable. Gratuitously offensive and not relevant to the plight of Man Utd. Can you imagine any other serious pundit being so pathetic?
I doubt it. Scholes is the Brainless One.
Scholes is meant to be a pundit objectively analysing the game. That's a technical job requiring someone with good tactical nous and an understanding derived from having played at the top level. Gary Neville is superb at it and is always worth listening to.
Scholes is not in his class as a pundit and despite his quality as a player, he's just another ex pro trading on his fame to earn a buck. Let's face it, what else would he do? He's hardly the sharpest tool in the box. His only redeeming feature is that he's not as painfully inept as Owen.
However, last night he became an embittered fan. That may make headlines once, maybe twice. After that he is ignored as a whining twat. If he wants to be an embittered fan he should seek out Full Time Devils where last nights sourness would properly be better placed. As for his dig at Wenger, wholly inexcusable. Gratuitously offensive and not relevant to the plight of Man Utd. Can you imagine any other serious pundit being so pathetic?
I doubt it. Scholes is the Brainless One.
People actually critical of scholes after that performance. Unbelievable. I've had enough of 'expert analysis' and reasoned theory. Duck that. His analysis was bloody amazing, passionate and entertaining.
I'm not being bad but LVG should ignore Scholes. If LVG can't see the things Scholes is complaining about then he's not going to be able to solve them and Scholes can't really come up with anything of substance so why should he listen to him? I doubt SAF listened to Keane and I doubt Wenger changes tactics based on the incoherent ramblings of the lads of Soccer Saturday.
Hilarious. Scholes says everything that we say on here, yet when he says it, he gets slated on here. Strange
Supported United as a boy, played for the club for 20 plus years and you think he's going to sit there and not be ultra critical of the pile of steaming shit unfolding in front of his eyes?
You ever watched a MOTD with Shearer this season, the only time he talks any sense is when he's able to perfectly pick a part everything wrong with Newcastle United and he does with a passion and I'd hope all those useless pricks playing for Newcastle at the moment watch it and take it in.
Also Gary Neville went on plenty of United rants in his time as a pundit, Scholes rant last night was hardly incoherent as you're implying, he was able to pick out most things wrong with LVG's diabolical management of the club stopping short of saying he should be sacked.
You're a Charlton fan right? I'd love for you to have been interviewed after you lost 5-0 to Huddersfield, or basically after any Charlton game this season, and sat there with a straight face with no emotion analysing the game.
We just got battered by Liverpool, you ever seen Souness rant after a Liverpool collapse? you see Carragher after the Capital One Cup Final?
Scholes isn't an isolation, pundits are still fans, they're not robots, they can't be objective in certain instances.
Exaggerate much?
Offensive, inexcusable? not relevant? What?
Rio made a comment about United being close to the top 4 and winning the FA Cup of which Scholes replied to, with, that isn't acceptable for a club like United,he mentioned Arsenal but he didn't mention Wenger's name, not sure why you've chosen to personalise it.
Arsenal had a lap of honour and parade at St James Park for coming 4th a few years ago, I found that offensive and inexcusable.