Better forget about that, and the game vs Norwich, yes it was a weaker side, but how often does a player score hat-trick anyways...Nah, ain't nobody got time to aknowledge those kind of achievements.Guess that means you didn't watch us against Bayern away last season in CL.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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So a couple of decent performances and we call these achievements now? Sorry, but Berbatov scored an amazing hat-trick and the caf still doesn't appreciate him... Get over it. Kagawa didn't fit.
There's quite a bit of room between "Kagawa didn't fit" (which I agree with) and "Never, ever did he impress me" which is what you first stated.
Ok, its hard for me to explain. I never got excited seeing him get the ball, never got excited by seeing his name on the team sheet. Those moments where he did well were more surprising than impressive. This might be because i had too high hopes for him when he came. Whatever the reason, for me he always a bit meh, with moments of not that meh. Kind of like Ashley Young but a bit better.
it depends. sometimes, different players excite us for different reasons (sometimes same reasons). sometimes this doesnt mesh when we try and discuss with others but to me, that's why i like to ask questions. because while we are voicing our personal opinions, think it's worth asking why or what basis are you drawing for your opinion. so if you say kagawa doesn impress you, i'm intrigued what that means for you. obviously you are not impressed but for you something obviously doesn rub right no?
It's not really a blame game for anyone. Kagawa, as talented as he is, seems to be a player who needs the right system to fit him and not vice versa.
So it's always been our team and our love of hitting the wings (under SAF and Moyes) and crossing, which is never really going to suit Kagawa.
Buying RvP and deeming both RvP and Rooney undroppable, also spelt the end for Kagawa. Add in Mata and his fate was sealed.
Was sad to see him go, but it's one of those transfers that you can't help be happy about because it suited both parties. We're overstocked with #10's and playmakers.
And as seen above, Shinji will thrive under Klopp again. So, happy.
So it's always been our team and our love of hitting the wings (under SAF and Moyes) and crossing, which is never really going to suit Kagawa.
Buying RvP and deeming both RvP and Rooney undroppable, also spelt the end for Kagawa. Add in Mata and his fate was sealed.
Was sad to see him go, but it's one of those transfers that you can't help be happy about because it suited both parties. We're overstocked with #10's and playmakers.
And as seen above, Shinji will thrive under Klopp again. So, happy.
I've been a fan of him since before he came to Dortmund, and always praised his quality.
He's one of my favourite players lol
Meant as irony as I kinda understood that
Here is what i expected. I saw him running with the ball more. I saw him as getting into holes between the opposition's defense and midfield and either distributing a last pass for a goal or moving and shooting by himself. I don't know why exactly this is my version of him but this is what i expected. For some reason he seemed too timid with us. That is why he didn't impress me.
For example ( i know, diff players and positions) - Rafael's pass between 2 QPR players for Herrera's run. This runs are what i thought Kagawa had to make on a regular basis, whether trough the middle or a little wider. Just a little toothless for us. That is my impression.
Just pointing out that you were not impressed, not a single time. now here is two for you. See two (2) is not the same as none (0)...just my point.
Ok, i forgot the caf sometimes focuses on word usage rather than general meaning. I will make sure to improve my English and also simmer trough all United games so as to give facts and avoid mistakes when i write.
Again - these TWO performances surprised me rather than impress me. Its like Cleverley having a good game. Just my point/
Ah okay thenMeant as irony as I kinda understood that
I'm happy for Shinji to be back playing well at Dortmund, A club he was obviously made for.
One thing I would say however is that players that leave Klopp's playing system to other clubs just don't seem to adapt, it seems the players are 'world class' in the Klopp made system. For example:
Sahin - Injuries prevented him at Real but didn't look comfortable at Liverpool either, Now thriving again back at Dortmund
Kagawa - Obviously we all know about
Gotze - Scored the winning goal in the WC final but that has masked pretty average performances for the last 12 months, Bayern fans are fast losing patience with him and he has already started to hint about playing abroad
Now granted Robert Lewandowski may be an exception but the Bayern system is fully adjusted to his playing style
One thing I would say however is that players that leave Klopp's playing system to other clubs just don't seem to adapt, it seems the players are 'world class' in the Klopp made system. For example:
Sahin - Injuries prevented him at Real but didn't look comfortable at Liverpool either, Now thriving again back at Dortmund
Kagawa - Obviously we all know about
Gotze - Scored the winning goal in the WC final but that has masked pretty average performances for the last 12 months, Bayern fans are fast losing patience with him and he has already started to hint about playing abroad
Now granted Robert Lewandowski may be an exception but the Bayern system is fully adjusted to his playing style
Didn't Liverpool play Sahin behind the striker/no 10? Where Klopp himself said he was completely unsuitable for?
The difference between Clevs and Kagawa is (almost not worth mention, but...) Kagawa arrived from the recent German champions and proven time after time in both regular league appearance and big cup ties that he is reliably talented, Cleverly had (and still have?) some great games where he shows his (supposed) worth, but is generally reliably poor in performance. Yes, Kagawa was somewhat poor when it came to producing and scoring etc, but his contribution far exceeds that of Cleverly when we talk about positive impact in games he started, yet I feel he didn't get credited enaugh for it.
I don't know if this means you agree with that or not, Im going to guess no?
No!
But if you look at some of the Bayern based forums they all seem to say the same
I know using forums might not always be the best judge of the full match going crowd but take a look at this thread:
http://www.bayernforum.com/personnel-f8/mario-goetze-t9600-375.html
It's not even comparable.
Shinji is a completely different level of player to Cleverley - you expect him to play well week after week because he's spent years doing so.
Cleverley had half a season where he played at a similar level - every other time, you're hoping he steps up and does something memorable.
Definitely. Some players just do not have the mentality to handle the pressure of playing at the absolute top level. That's not to say Dortmund are a small club (they aren't at all), but the expectations are a whole different level. You see it time and time again.
I don't think he'll move clubs again in his career if I'm honest, even if he did start performing incredibly and the likes of Madrid came calling. Unless Klopp moves clubs of course.
Usually find your views pretty sensible, but think you're wrong here. Blind and Herrera, individually, would have found it tough going playing for Moyes last season. They benefit from playing for LVG and also being part of a new wave of transfers that has totally reshaped our overall play. I heard somewhere that only 3 starters from yesterday's QPR game started exactly a year ago against Crystal Palace (Rooney, RVP, and de Gea). Kagawa would have fit in seamlessly yesterday with a diamond formation of di Maria, Herrera, and Blind. As I also recall, Kagawa had a nice debut for us at Goodison Park in 2012 where he was one of the lone bright spots in an otherwise disappointing loss.
While I can't be too arsed with Kagawa's departure since we have plenty of quality at his position, I do find the revision since he's left amusing. How he's supposedly weak (mentally not physically) in addition to being lazy is almost laughable. Kagawa's failure to shine here has a lot less to do with him and more to do with just downright bad luck mixed in with that calamity Moyes and our appalling midfield. Sounds like excuses I know, but hear me out. By most accounts, Shinji had a decent first season under SAF even though he was occasionally shifted out wide and also sat out for a long period due to injury (still don't know why SAF didn't sub him straight away instead of letting him gimp around for a few extra minutes). By the end of the season, Rooney looked like he was on his way out and Kagawa would play as the #10 behind RVP. Then Moyes came, got on his knees and blew, err kept Rooney. Moyes hardly plays Kagawa in the beginning of last season and when he did play, it was almost exclusively out on the wing. Even fecking Fellaini and Januzaj probably played as a #10 more often than Kagawa. During the rare opportunities that Kagawa did play in the hole, they were usually with Chicharito as a striker instead of Rooney or RVP. Somewhere around this time, Kagawa overate and had to go to the hospital
. Then Moyes went ahead and bought Mata in Jan. effectively ending Kagawa's career with us. Never mind that the few times we looked decent last season was when Kagawa and Mata were linking up with each other. LVG comes in, buys 6 new players, and Kagawa sees the writing on the wall and decides to head back to Dortmund and Klopp.No less of an authority than Paul Scholes stated Kagawa needs a run of 10 games in his favored position. That opportunity never came under Moyes or LVG. He never looked like a world-beater during his stay here but then again #10s like him hardly do. They depend on movement and pace, which we sorely lacked. Add to that, he's adjusting to a new country, language, culture without any of his compatriots unlike Blind and Herrera, and it's easy to see why Kagawa failed here without a manager that believed in him once SAF retired. Are we going to miss him? Probably not. Are we better off without him? Don't believe so.
For a start, it's definitely not true that he hinted at playing abroad. He gave the standard answer of 'yes, playing abroad could be interesting' when asked about it in an interview and added he's definitely not interested to leave Bayern at the moment and is really happy here. It's the usual media bullshit, creating drama where there is none, none at all.
About the losing patience part. I don't really think that player threads in fan boards represent a general opinion, because usually a few moaners dominate while most patient users don't get too involved in these discussions. But I don't really see a negative trend in the posts from your link anyway.
Here are examples from the page you linked to, it sounds totally different to what you suggested for the most part:
Great contribution from Mario, really happy with the win! Hope this victory can give our Bayern guys the confidence to dominate this coming season
Great that he was the one that scored... Gotze has many more Euro's and WC's to play, the future is his.
Pretty much all the other posts in your link are about his salary or about celebrating his goal. I don't read anything there about fast losing patience, not a single post actually on that page.
/edit: we should probably move to the Götze thread, if you want to continue
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And @quackattack
Again you are missing the point i am trying to make and you focus on the words. Someone wanted to know why I was never impressed by Kagawa. I explained it by giving a stupid and kind of metaphorical example saying Kagawa have surprised me rather than impressed me, similar to Cleverley. I am not comparing the players at all. I am explaining my feeling when i see Kagawa play. More often than not it is boring and fruitless. And if he is playing Blind's role, that would be ok. Please stop picking my words, just to show me how wrong am i in not rating Kagawa. You have every right to value him and enjoy him. I don't and he has never, ever impressed me. When he had good performances, i was surprised, not impressed.
I won't go tit for tat in quoting posts from Bayern forums and derail this thread, Although I could post quite a few that say he has been average, overweight and generally quite lazy, For what it's worth Gotze is one of my favourite players but you can't hide the fact that his performances have been up and down, He isn't imposing himself on games like he did at Dortmund. If you want to talk Gotze i'll be happy to discuss in a thread for him.
Anyways, Back to Kawaga...
I'm happy for him, he's back where he thrives and is loved. I have no regrets though, he didn't perform for us, that's all that matters. Mata is also twice the player.
@ Pouge in the last pagesI said so because by the time LVG came it was already too late for Shinji since we had already splashed on Mata. He is not entirely blameless because, at the end of the day it his he who failed to adapt to his new surroundings in fifty odd appearances.
So not not only did Fergie rate him(like I always said), but he was also satisfied with Kagawa's first season. As far as players and management goes, Fergie is still the master. So I believe that's: /thread
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At the end of the day it was best all round for him to move on.
We have two number tens in Mata and Januzaj.
Mata is proven in the PL and Adnan is a great long term prospect plus also can play out wide.
Pity we got such a low fee or didn't try to use him as leverage in a bid for Hummels-but swaps rarely happen.
We have two number tens in Mata and Januzaj.
Mata is proven in the PL and Adnan is a great long term prospect plus also can play out wide.
Pity we got such a low fee or didn't try to use him as leverage in a bid for Hummels-but swaps rarely happen.
You must not have followed Kagawa´s first weeks at Dortmund if you believe that. The hype around this transfer among the supporters and the media was huge. On top of that there was no time of easing him in because both Reus and Blaszykowski were out injured and everything besides a win at home vs. Freiburg would have been considered a failure.
So here was Kagawa starting after one week of training in front of 80.000 people, who celebrated him as a hero even before the match started and basically expected him to continue right where he left it two years ago. You think that this no pressure for him?
It´s hilarious that players like Blind and Herrera are already considered players with stronger characters, because they played well in a system Kagawa would have also excelled in. When you compare both Dortmund and United in their respective last game you will find several similarities. Both faced deep lying defenses and tried to break them up with fast and fluid combination football. Both pressed when the opportunity arised. Furthermore both Blind and Herrera have obviously the backing of the manager, which is something Kagawa never really received after SAF´s retirement. It is not something magical that Kagawa performs better at Dortmund as he did in Manchester for the most time. There are pretty obvious reasons for that.
Coming back to the expectations to the club. What do people think the audiences and media expect from Dortmund in Germany? We are supposed to be the challenger of the top dog and the team to keep the title race interesting as long as possible. If we don´t manage that for whatever reasons our league seasons are never rated as better than decent no matter the circumstances. We are part of our league´s title race as much as you guys are supposed to be. You might have bigger expectations in the CL in the long run, but outside of a monster draw in the round of 16 anything less than top 8 would also be considered a failure on our part. If top 8 in Europe and title challenger in a European top league is not considered the absolute top level, then what is?
The biggest difference is that despite the level of football we have established on the pitch in the last few years, which resulted in the before mentioned expectations, we are not as big as a lot of our competition and can´t throw massive amounts of money on the market to solve our problems and keep key players with premium wages. We have to find other ways to keep the machine running.
The dream move to the "big club" turned out to be the worst possible thing for him, and us as well. Glad to see him back in the right situation.
My personal belief is that the pressure of playing for a club like United (or Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern) is greater than that of other clubs. The fans don't just demand Champions League qualification, they demand consistent trophies and a season without silverware is deemed a failure. The difference between a 2nd place finish and last 16 of the Champions League being a good season and having to win the league for it to be deemed a good season are worlds apart in my opinion.
This is before we even contemplate the difference for Kagawa personally, who clearly felt like the step up to United was huge, which is not that surprising when you look at how United are viewed in that part of the world. Just watching him play for the last 2 seasons it was apparent that he was overawed by the environment. He became a shrinking violet, whereas the player's that are usually the most successful at United thrive on the pressure (Ronaldo, Keane, Cantona etc).
The reason that the aforementioned player's are already considered stronger characters is because they didn't just thrive when we were playing well, they were the ones that created the tempo for us to play well. This is the difference between a player like Kagawa/Berbatov who shine when you would win 4-0 regardless and other player's who are the reason behind that kind of performance in the first place. It is easy to get an assist or goal when everyone around you is playing well (which was Kagawa's M.O. at United). The tests for Herrera and Blind are still to come, I want to see them create that tempo on a regular basis, if they do so within a matter of games they'll have surpassed Kagawa's contribution. The difference between Mata and Kagawa is also stark in my opinion. The latter is a fair weather player who only looked competent when we were winning, Mata's stats in this regard speak for themselves (irrespective of team performances).
Dortmund are the Arsenal of German Football. There is absolutely no pressure on them to win the Bundesliga. If they finish second every season for the next 5 years, be the losing finalists a few times in the cup and reach the last 16 of the CL, Klopp will keep his job and still be adored by the fans. At United a manager that doesn't win trophies for 5 years would be getting the sack, no ifs, buts or maybes.
Dortmund are a great club and I love the way they play and what they've done with the resources available. Klopp is an absolute genius to have gotten them to where he has with their budget and you'll benefit from him for decades. Also the way things are going financially for yourselves there is no reason in the future why you can't start to compete with top tier clubs (particular with the Commercial deals available in Germany). However lets not pretend the pressure is anything like as fierce.
Just look at the difference between what constitutes a good season for Guardiola vs Klopp. Anything but consistent success is deemed abject failure for the former. The latter has copious amounts of breathing space. Stating injuries last term as a reason you weren't as successful is accepted at Dortmund, at Bayern it just isn't. The fact that Klopp's job isn't starting to get under pressure after the last 2 seasons without silverware is testament to this, Guardiola with the same last 2 seasons would be under big pressure, you must see this?
He obviously fits into Dortmund's system, which can't be hurt by the fact that his manager there reckons he's a world class player. Glad he's back at a club where he can flourish.
Lets not get carried away here. Blind has played one game and Herrera has played two.
What is with the hate? He was shafted last season by Moyes, left out or benched quite often at the start of the season. Where as Blind & Herrera have the full confidence of the manager and start games. Remember Kagawa was benched even when RVP & Rooney were injured.
Yes he didn't take his chances in the league when he got it though so he is not without blame, anyway it didn't work out for whatever reason but I don't think a mentally weak character can go back to his old club after failing so spectacularly at the "next level" at put in the performance he did last game.
He has also never critisized the club or Moyes.
Hate? I don't hate him at all.
I'm getting close to hating some of the fanbois in this thread but probably more or a mild irritation, if I'm honest.
I'm actually disappointed he didn't make the most of his time at United, as I enjoy watching him when he's playing well. I just find it baffling the variety and extent of excuses being made for a player who, quite simply, didn't cut it in the Premier league. He wasn't the first continental star to fail to make the transition and he won't be the last. I'm just glad we've replaced him with players who seem better able for the cut and thrust of PL football. Obviously, early days yet I'm far more optimistic about the likes of Blind and Herrera having a sustained positive impact at United than I ever was about Kagawa. Always seemed too lightweight and easily bullied. Don't think he had the cojones or physical strength to cope with the more lenient refereeing you get in England.
I hope he goes on to do well for Dortmund this season (especially now they have Arsenal in their group) and I'm pleased for him that he's evidently done so well in his first game back. Just wish there weren't so many United fans apparently going through some sort of grieving process for a player that will go down as nothing more than a minor footnote in the history of this club. He came. He saw. He didn't conquer. He went back from whence he came. Shit happens. Get over it.
I'm getting close to hating some of the fanbois in this thread but probably more or a mild irritation, if I'm honest.
I'm actually disappointed he didn't make the most of his time at United, as I enjoy watching him when he's playing well. I just find it baffling the variety and extent of excuses being made for a player who, quite simply, didn't cut it in the Premier league. He wasn't the first continental star to fail to make the transition and he won't be the last. I'm just glad we've replaced him with players who seem better able for the cut and thrust of PL football. Obviously, early days yet I'm far more optimistic about the likes of Blind and Herrera having a sustained positive impact at United than I ever was about Kagawa. Always seemed too lightweight and easily bullied. Don't think he had the cojones or physical strength to cope with the more lenient refereeing you get in England.
I hope he goes on to do well for Dortmund this season (especially now they have Arsenal in their group) and I'm pleased for him that he's evidently done so well in his first game back. Just wish there weren't so many United fans apparently going through some sort of grieving process for a player that will go down as nothing more than a minor footnote in the history of this club. He came. He saw. He didn't conquer. He went back from whence he came. Shit happens. Get over it.
Kagawa would have done well under LVG. It just didn't make sense for him to stay at United because Mata is here and there aren't many games without Europe. It's obvious he didn't fit United's style of football the last few years and him playing out wide didn't help him. He would have done well under Liverpool's style of attacking football.
That's all there is to it.
That's all there is to it.
He would be benched for Sterling or Coutinho.
I think when you call a player mentally weak, that is a little over stepping the mark especially when it is unfounded. I'm not a Kagawa fanboy and I was of the opinion we would be better off getting a new pacey player in and him leaving once we signed Mata (which has happened) in Di Maria.
However to deny last season he got shafted by Moyes (especially at the start of the season) shows a lack of objectivity. He didn't take his chances no doubt though just a shame as I think he could have done well for us.
However to deny last season he got shafted by Moyes (especially at the start of the season) shows a lack of objectivity. He didn't take his chances no doubt though just a shame as I think he could have done well for us.
Was he 'shafted' by Van Gaal as well? He was the one who sold him after all.
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