Shinji Kagawa - Dortmund Player

[Sky1981]

I did. Which made me wonder how you formed that opinion with no evidence to suggest it. It's also why I pointed out your subjective opinion. You should read the replies to your posts.

Hell, it's in my Opinion.

If you're saying one should based their opinions on facts then we might as well close this forum, because none of us here ever talked to Louis van Gaal, let alone understand what's in his mind.

And me saying "that actually Kagawa isn't that bad, he's just not necessary in the right club" some kind of blasphemous and controversial? That guy is the best German player not so long ago.

EDIT: And the only facts as of today is that he is being sold. what sort of evidence you have that LVG didn't rate him? Because he's not playing him? Well doh, he's going to be sold, why the feck would he play him?

 

[quackattack]

Guess the end of it is that he is/was like Veron (and maybe Forlan). A splendid playmaker who just didn't cut it at United, but did well elsewhere, before and after.

 

[acnumber9]

Hell, it's in my Opinion.

If you're saying one should based their opinions on facts then we might as well close this forum, because none of us here ever talked to Louis van Gaal, let alone understand what's in his mind.

And me saying "that actually Kagawa isn't that bad, he's just not necessary in the right club" some kind of blasphemous and controversial? That guy is the best German player not so long ago.

EDIT: And the only facts as of today is that he is being sold. what sort of evidence you have that LVG didn't rate him? Because he's not playing him? Well doh, he's going to be sold, why the feck would he play him?

I never said you were wrong to think Kagawa is a good player. I never so much as hinted at it, you're reading something that isn't there.

Selling a player is as close as you'll get to evidence short of him telling the press he thinks he is shit. Managers don't often sell players they rate. He played Welbeck and Hernandez despite intend on getting rid of them. Thy Kagawa didn't play a minute of league football in games we needed goals suggests further that he didn't rate him that highly.

 

[Essaux]

Kagawa never got the right chance to prove himself at United.

He is a quality player.

 

[golden_blunder]

I dont get the Coutinho love-in?

He's done well, no more than that. He hasnt set the PL alight just yet

 

[Gladiator]

It doesn't make him rubbish but there is absolutely nothing to suggest he rated him.

he has sung high praises of kagawa before

 

[Gladiator]

Barely playing him and selling him at the first opportunity. As opposed to your own subjective opinion.

like he "sold" welbeck?

 

[Jev]

To say that Coutinho is 'miles better' than Kagawa is ridiculous. He has never performed close to the level that Kagawa consistently did for Dortmund.

 

[Balu]

Bundesliga being less physical suits him as well as SAF said when he first arrived and was struggling centrally. His best performances last season for us weirdly came in CL while he struggled in the Prem.

While the Bundesliga is of course less physical, I think he could cope with the Premier League in a similar system to Dortmund's. I'd love to know how long he had to keep the ball at United with every touch in comparison to his time at Dortmund. Even in tight space he's just brilliant if he's allowed to solve everything with one or two touches. It's usually always control, turn and pass with the decision already made before he even receives the ball. If he was forced to keep the ball, wait for his teammates or dribble past several players on his own, he'd also struggle in the Bundesliga. He'd have the same problems as he had at United.

Thomas Müller recently said something similar, that he struggles against physical defenders and that he needs to come up with ways to avoid a physical battle in the final third, so it's all about movement for him, about making decisions how to continue before he even receives the ball. Take that away from him and he's half the player.

I'm a bit surprised that van Gaal sold him so early, I think he likes that type of player. But I wouldn't rule it out that Shinji already gave up on his career at United when van Gaal arrived, that frustration got the better of him, not only about the lack of chances but also about his own failure to adapt. He always appeared self-critical to me. Once your confidence is completely shot, it's really hard to get it back, so he simply needed the change to revive his career.

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

While the Bundesliga is of course less physical, I think he could cope with the Premier League in a similar system to Dortmund's. I'd love to know how long he had to keep the ball at United with every touch in comparison to his time at Dortmund. Even in tight space he's just brilliant if he's allowed to solve everything with one or two touches. It's usually always control, turn and pass with the decision already made before he even receives the ball. If he was forced to keep the ball, wait for his teammates or dribble past several players on his own, he'd also struggle in the Bundesliga. He'd have the same problems as he had at United.

Thomas Müller recently said something similar, that he struggles against physical defenders and that he needs to come up with ways to avoid a physical battle in the final third, so it's all about movement for him, about making decisions how to continue before he even receives the ball. Take that away from him and he's half the player.

I'm a bit surprised that van Gaal sold him so early, I think he likes that type of player. But I wouldn't rule it out that Shinji already gave up on his career at United when van Gaal arrived, that frustration got the better of him, not only about the lack of chances but also about his own failure to adapt. He always appeared self-critical to me. Once your confidence is completely shot, it's really hard to get it back, so he simply needed the change to revive his career.

I was surprised as well - especially for that price. You can get more than 5 Kagawas for 1 Özil.

 

[acnumber9]

like he "sold" welbeck?

Pretty much. Is it really a question that needed to be asked? The same way he got rid of Nani and Hernandez too.

 

[acnumber9]

he has sung high praises of kagawa before

Has he? Makes it all the stranger he would get rid of him without playing him.

 

[Sky1981]

I never said you were wrong to think Kagawa is a good player. I ever so much as hinted at it, you're reading something that isn't there.

Selling a player is as close as you'll get to evidence short of him telling the press he thinks he is shit. Managers don't often sell players they rate. He played Welbeck and Hernandez despite intend on getting rid of them. Thy Kagawa didn't play a minute of league football in games we needed goals suggests further that he didn't rate him that highly.

So adm, herrera, falcao et al are shit because hey... The got sold

 

[Gladiator]

Pretty much. Is it really a question that needed to be asked? The same way he got rid of Nani and Hernandez too.

perhaps you didn follow the welbeck "saga" as close as I thought you did.

Has he? Makes it all the stranger he would get rid of him without playing him.

yep. because kagawa leaving wasn all up to van gaal.

 

[Gladiator]

To say that Coutinho is 'miles better' than Kagawa is ridiculous. He has never performed close to the level that Kagawa consistently did for Dortmund.

i know. it's depressing when you think about it

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I dont get the Coutinho love-in?

He's done well, no more than that. He hasnt set the PL alight just yet

He's done better than Kagawa in his PL career, is the point being made.

Faint praise but still...

 

[acnumber9]

So adm, herrera, falcao et al are shit because hey... The got sold

1 + 1 equals 148. The manager doesn't make the decisions at Real Madrid, Bilbao couldn't reject our bid for Herrera and Monaco have problems with FFP. I also never said Kagawa was shit. You're having the argument you have created in your mind not the reality of what I've said.

 

[Mad Winger]

Has he? Makes it all the stranger he would get rid of him without playing him.

Why play him when Mata occupys the position and scores nearly every game, without getting injured? Also, did it ever occur to you that Kagawa was the one wanting to leave?

As evident in the latest Klopp interview: Fergie really rated Kagawa and the club was satisfied with Kagawa's first season. It was when Moyes came that things went to hell(like it did for most of our other players). When Moyes signed Mata, it was a death sentence for Kagawa. He clearly fits the type of football LVG wants to play, but if he's gonna be second string to Mata, then there's no point for him to stay. He'd be an excellent back-up, just like Welbeck would have been an excellent fourth choice for the striker position. But they are both too good for that, and thus they left.

 

[acnumber9]

perhaps you didn follow the welbeck "saga" as close as I thought you did.


yep. because kagawa leaving wasn all up to van gaal.

How closely did I need to follow it? He sold because he didn't think he was good enough. That's what happens at a club like United more often than not.

When did he do that? He also said Kagawa couldn't fulfill his wishes.

 

[Gladiator]

While the Bundesliga is of course less physical, I think he could cope with the Premier League in a similar system to Dortmund's. I'd love to know how long he had to keep the ball at United with every touch in comparison to his time at Dortmund. Even in tight space he's just brilliant if he's allowed to solve everything with one or two touches. It's usually always control, turn and pass with the decision already made before he even receives the ball. If he was forced to keep the ball, wait for his teammates or dribble past several players on his own, he'd also struggle in the Bundesliga. He'd have the same problems as he had at United.

Thomas Müller recently said something similar, that he struggles against physical defenders and that he needs to come up with ways to avoid a physical battle in the final third, so it's all about movement for him, about making decisions how to continue before he even receives the ball. Take that away from him and he's half the player.

I'm a bit surprised that van Gaal sold him so early, I think he likes that type of player. But I wouldn't rule it out that Shinji already gave up on his career at United when van Gaal arrived, that frustration got the better of him, not only about the lack of chances but also about his own failure to adapt. He always appeared self-critical to me. Once your confidence is completely shot, it's really hard to get it back, so he simply needed the change to revive his career.

i agree balu. I think that self-critical aspect of his character actually worked against him.

 

[Gladiator]

How closely did I need to follow it? He sold because he didn't think he was good enough. That's what happens at a club like United more often than not.

When did he do that? He also said Kagawa couldn't fulfill his wishes.

not all that closely but i see you're still not getting it so i wont say more for now.

I believe it was when he was in Germany and maybe some other time.

"He also said Kagawa couldn't fulfill his wishes."

You need to look at the full quotes to get better context of what he was saying there. more than that

 

[Pogue Mahone]

i agree balu. I think that self-critical aspect of his character actually worked against him.

In other words he didn't have the right character to cope with the transition.

Not the fault of the manager, tactics, system or his team-mates. A flaw in the player himself.

Finally, the penny is dropping....

 

[Mad Winger]

When did he do that? He also said Kagawa couldn't fulfill his wishes.

That was related to the fact that Kagawa wasn't able(didn't want to?) play CM... The fact that Van Gaal wanted to try Kagawa in CM proves that he saw his obvious talent, and thus wanted to find a way to force him into the starting XI, seeing as Mata occypied the no.10 position. It wouldn't be the first time Van Gaal converted a player, you know.

 

[Balu]

He's done better than Kagawa in his PL career, is the point being made.

Faint praise but still...

Well, if you believe that only performances in the Premier League count, then you might actually come to stupid conclusions like the following.

Coutinho's a miles better player than Kagawa

The reality is that Kagawa performed on a higher level than Coutinho in his career though and Coutinho certainly didn't perform consistently on a level in the past 2 years, that puts him a level above Kagawa. The 'miles better' part is just silly.

 

[Gladiator]

In other words he didn't have the right character to cope with the transition.

Not the fault of the manager, tactics, system or his team-mates. A flaw in the player himself.

Finally, the penny is dropping....

um no you made that extrapolation. not my problem

 

[acnumber9]

not all that closely but i see you're still not getting it so i wont say more for now.

I believe it was when he was in Germany and maybe some other time.

"He also said Kagawa couldn't fulfill his wishes."

You need to look at the full quotes to get better context of what he was saying there. more than that

Condescension doesn't suit you. Welbeck was sold. Van Gaal didn't think he was as good as Rooney or Van Persie. Not sure what there was to be missed and as you can't point it out then I'm going to rest safe in the knowledge there is no more to it.

You believe and maybe? I've glad you've been able to conclusively prove how much Van Gaal rated him. I feel educated.

I know the context. It was in terms of playing in central midfield. So we know he didn't think he was good enough to play ahead of Rooney or Mata and that he couldn't play in midfield. Where does that leave us on evidence of him rating Kagawa?

 

[quackattack]

That was related to the fact that Kagawa wasn't able(didn't want to?) play CM... The fact that Van Gaal wanted to try Kagawa in CM proves that he saw his obvious talent, and thus wanted to find a way to force him into the starting XI, seeing as Mata occypied the no.10 position. It wouldn't be the first time Van Gaal converted a player, you know.

If this is/was true then it had to be several or many factors at stake. Kagawa knows how to play in the DM/DM since that is where he began his (sim pro) career. However, he has seid that it has been a very long time since that was his main role so he would probably have to adapt for a quite long time. Also, he might have realised that he would not be one of the key figures in a "fed" united team and probably understood that he would play a much bigger and key part in Dortmund where he is adored by all (and which values him in a whole different way that United EVER has(just look in comparison to Mata, Falcao, Herrera, Blind, Shaw, Rojo...all the new signings are already praised as the next big thing, while Kagawa was never praised, even when he played decent)).

But as always, I agree with your posts

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

It's a host of things, you seem to have Madwinger on one side, proclaiming everything was against him, and Pogue simply insisting that he was too weak in his personality, surely the truth lies somewhere between, he did get chances, sometimes in his best position, fact remains he didn't produce what he was capable of, he said that in his own words, the tactics may not have suited him, but top players make it work I suppose, can't imagine CR/ Messi/ ADM/ Bale etc failing, and some of that has to be due to a weakness in his personality or adaptability.

 

[finneh]

To say that Coutinho is 'miles better' than Kagawa is ridiculous. He has never performed close to the level that Kagawa consistently did for Dortmund.

Kagawa's consistency for Dortmund actually consisted of 6 months injured, 6 months in poor form and 12 months in great form. If you actually dissect it you are looking at around 35-40 games where he was in top form. It is just as likely that he hit a purple patch for those games that'll never be seen again as it is that he will regain the form he showed when the stars aligned.

Over the past 5 years Kagawa has had 12 months in great form. Coutinho on the other hand has been consistently good for 5 full seasons for 3 different teams by all accounts. So yes, saying Coutinho is "miles better" is currently a perfectly logical statement. That could well change of course.

 

[Jev]

Kagawa's consistency for Dortmund actually consisted of 6 months injured, 6 months in poor form and 12 months in great form. If you actually dissect it you are looking at around 35-40 games where he was in top form. It is just as likely that he hit a purple patch for those games that'll never be seen again as it is that he will regain the form he showed when the stars aligned.

Don't know where you're getting that from. He was consistently one of BVB's best players when he wasn't injured.

And I'll repeat that Coutinho at his best has never been as good as Kagawa was when he was at his best for Dortmund.

 

[bishblaize]

Don't know where you're getting that from. He was consistently one of BVB's best players when he wasn't injured.

He certainly had a slow start in his second season, coming after his injury.

Spoiler

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/ed...art-to-the-season-shinji-kagawa-has-found-the

To say 6 months would be stretching it though.

 

[finneh]

Don't know where you're getting that from. He was consistently one of BVB's best players when he wasn't injured.

And I'll repeat that Coutinho at his best has never been as good as Kagawa was when he was at his best for Dortmund.

Nah he was injured in Jan 2012 and didn't hit top form again until Jan 2013. Which basically puts his tally of great form across maybe 5 months 10/11 and 5 months 11/12 if you're being kind. Basically just over 2 half seasons.

No-one is arguing Coutinho at his best is as good as Kagawa over those 10 months. Just like no-one would say Sturridge is better than Rooney. But overall Coutinho has shown miles more, as has Rooney of course.

 

[Sphaero]

In other words he didn't have the right character to cope with the transition.

Not the fault of the manager, tactics, system or his team-mates. A flaw in the player himself.

Finally, the penny is dropping....

Because the world is always black and white and there can´t be a combinaton of reasons why it did not work out for Kagawa at the Old Trafford, right?

Seriously, at this point you have taken a standpoint in this matter, which is just as extreme as Mad Winger´s. This peaked in the absolutely absurd statement that Herrera and Blind have already proven to be stronger characters than Kagawa after two or even just one performance. This argument has absolutely no leg to stand on, because there is absolutely no way of knowing that after such a short time and without real tests of character.

 

[Balu]

Kagawa's consistency for Dortmund actually consisted of 6 months injured, 6 months in poor form and 12 months in great form. If you actually dissect it you are looking at around 35-40 games where he was in top form. It is just as likely that he hit a purple patch for those games that'll never be seen again as it is that he will regain the form he showed when the stars aligned.

Over the past 5 years Kagawa has had 12 months in great form. Coutinho on the other hand has been consistently good for 5 full seasons for 3 different teams by all accounts. So yes, saying Coutinho is "miles better" is currently a perfectly logical statement. That could well change of course.

He played 28 league games in 3 years for Inter between 2010 and 2013. He was consistently good at Espanyol during his 6 months loan spell, but in the following season at Inter again he was a substitute for most of the season and was sold at the end. I don't think his performances at Liverpool deserve to be called 'consistent' either from what I've seen, but stretching it to 5 years is just wrong.

 

[finneh]

He played 28 league games in 3 years for Inter between 2010 and 2013. He was consistently good at Espanyol during his 6 months loan spell, but in the following season at Inter again he was a substitute for most of the season and was sold at the end. I don't think his performances at Liverpool deserve to be called 'consistent' either from what I've seen, but stretching it to 5 years is just wrong.

I don't mean game in game out he's been consistently good, I mean on the whole his seasons would be classed as good. Five is stretching it to be fair, but then again he's over 3 years younger than Kagawa so going back to when he was 17 is too harsh.

Certainly the last 3 seasons he's been at a level most would describe on the whole as good. Which is a far more consistent return than Kagawa's two great spells of 5 months, followed by 2 years of mediocrity at best.

 

[Jev]

Nah he was injured in Jan 2012 and didn't hit top form again until Jan 2013. Which basically puts his tally of great form across maybe 5 months 10/11 and 5 months 11/12 if you're being kind. Basically just over 2 half seasons.

No-one is arguing Coutinho at his best is as good as Kagawa over those 10 months. Just like no-one would say Sturridge is better than Rooney. But overall Coutinho has shown miles more, as has Rooney of course.

The fact that he took a few months to hit top form after such a serious injury is completely natural. His level at Dortmund was close to world-class.

 

[Balu]

I don't mean game in game out he's been consistently good, I mean on the whole his seasons would be classed as good. Five is stretching it to be fair, but then again he's over 3 years younger than Kagawa so going back to when he was 17 is too harsh.

Certainly the last 3 seasons he's been at a level most would describe on the whole as good. Which is a far more consistent return than Kagawa's two great spells of 5 months, followed by 2 years of mediocrity at best.

I don't think Coutinho's average level in the past 3 years was significantly better than Kagawa's first season at United. If you take performances for the nationalteam into account, where Kagawa definitely performed well in the past 2 years, then it seems really really harsh to call Coutinho a better player than Kagawa if you look at their overall careers.

I get the disappointment with Kagawa because he clearly failed at United and I don't want to make excuses for him. It's for the most part his own fault in my opinion and it sucks that it didn't work out. I just don't get why he's put down to a shit player, when that's obviously not true.

 

[bishblaize]

Because the world is always black and white and there can´t be a combinaton of reasons why it did not work out for Kagawa at the Old Trafford, right?

Seriously, at this point you have taken a standpoint in this matter, which is just as extreme as Mad Winger´s. This peaked in the absolutely absurd statement that Herrera and Blind have already proven to be stronger characters than Kagawa after two or even just one performance. This argument has absolutely no leg to stand on, because there is absolutely no way of knowing that after such a short time and without real tests of character.

This thread polarises views like no other thread I've seen. I've not known a player like this since we let Gordon Strachan go.

 

[Atze-Peng]

While the Bundesliga is of course less physical, I think he could cope with the Premier League in a similar system to Dortmund's. I'd love to know how long he had to keep the ball at United with every touch in comparison to his time at Dortmund. Even in tight space he's just brilliant if he's allowed to solve everything with one or two touches. It's usually always control, turn and pass with the decision already made before he even receives the ball. If he was forced to keep the ball, wait for his teammates or dribble past several players on his own, he'd also struggle in the Bundesliga. He'd have the same problems as he had at United.

Thomas Müller recently said something similar, that he struggles against physical defenders and that he needs to come up with ways to avoid a physical battle in the final third, so it's all about movement for him, about making decisions how to continue before he even receives the ball. Take that away from him and he's half the player.

I'm a bit surprised that van Gaal sold him so early, I think he likes that type of player. But I wouldn't rule it out that Shinji already gave up on his career at United when van Gaal arrived, that frustration got the better of him, not only about the lack of chances but also about his own failure to adapt. He always appeared self-critical to me. Once your confidence is completely shot, it's really hard to get it back, so he simply needed the change to revive his career.

Good and fair post.

Just have to add that I don't think the premier league is physically superior. Yes, it is physical, but it has also a lot less movement (I think I read something along the lines of every player running 1-2 km less per game than in the Bundesliga). And I think that was the key problem for Kagawa. His kind of player NEEDS movement of the team to shine. You saw it in situations when RvP had these moments and how suddenly Kagawa had great plays. The physical aspect he could have played around with his agility.

Now of course one can argue that he failed to adept - and yes, he did. It's not solely his fault though. You don't buy a player and then force him to get rid of his best strength. A good coach fits these individual strengths into a working team - which Fergie actually did in the last half I think. On the other hand I think Moyes amssively failed to see these strengths as he is way too one-dimensional of a coach. Can't blame him though as several teams didn't want to get Kagawa before he has gone to Dortmund, since they didn't see his talent right away. There are certain talents which are difficult to spot (good article on the matter of "hidden" talents: here)


Additionally he appears to me to be quite the sensitive personality. Therefore while he shouldn't have a problem with competition, he certainly seems to have a problem when there is a lack of proper people management (feeling let down, left out, neglected, etcetc).

 

[finneh]

The fact that he took a few months to hit top form after such a serious injury is completely natural. His level at Dortmund was close to world-class.

Yes it is completely natural. But it doesn't change the fact that the form everyone is basing him as a player off is actually around 35-40 games. If we are going off 35-40 games to judge a player then Van Persie & Rooney are now shit and Daniel Sturridge is one of the best strikers in the world.

Just like you can't write a player off after a bad season, you can't brand someone a great player when their great performances are the equivalent of one season.

I don't think Coutinho's average level in the past 3 years was significantly better than Kagawa's first season at United. If you take performances for the nationalteam into account, where Kagawa definitely performed well in the past 2 years, then it seems really really harsh to call Coutinho a better player than Kagawa if you look at their overall careers.

I get the disappointment with Kagawa because he clearly failed at United and I don't want to make excuses for him. It's for the most part his own fault in my opinion and it sucks that it didn't work out. I just don't get why he's put down to a shit player, when that's obviously not true.

Kagawa's first season at United was the definition of mediocre. The United fans accepted it because he was a youngish player in a new League, so he got a massive amount of leeway. However you could count the amount of games that Kagawa played in his United career that were better than alright on both hands.

Coutinho on the other hand has become a key fixture in a team that finished second last season. I'm sure the Liverpool fans would agree that his contribution has been better than the 6/10 Kagawa performed in his first United season and certainly better than the 4 or 5/10 he performed last season.

I don't think Kagawa is a shit player. I just think he gets massively overrated because he fits this very fashionable style of play that some fans seem to love to see at the moment. I believe he is a luxury player who needs a system built around him to get the best out of him, but that he hasn't proved he's good enough to have this system built around him for a top team. In fact I'd say that very few player's are this good; even Mata at Chelsea who was one of the best player's of that ilk in the world had the entire team built around him and their overall play often suffered because of it, particularly in the Premier League, finishing 6th & 3rd.