Shinji Kagawa - Dortmund Player

[Gladiator]

Condescension doesn't suit you. Welbeck was sold. Van Gaal didn't think he was as good as Rooney or Van Persie. Not sure what there was to be missed and as you can't point it out then I'm going to rest safe in the knowledge there is no more to it.

You believe and maybe? I've glad you've been able to conclusively prove how much Van Gaal rated him. I feel educated.

I know the context. It was in terms of playing in central midfield. So we know he didn't think he was good enough to play ahead of Rooney or Mata and that he couldn't play in midfield. Where does that leave us on evidence of him rating Kagawa?

I'm not even trying to be condescending. What can I do if you're not getting it? you're missing a couple things which for someone who said they knew the situation well is a bit surprising.

To your second question. So for the 10 position, Mata starts over Kagawa but that doesnt necessarily mean he doesn't rate Kagawa. Again from all that is out there, I shouldn't need to say anymore but if you want to draw your own conclusions from that, suit yourself.

I mean "midfield" is sort of vague unless you specify where in midfield.

 

[Balu]

Just have to add that I don't think the premier league is physically superior. Yes, it is physical, but it has also a lot less movement (I think I read something along the lines of every player running 1-2 km less per game than in the Bundesliga).

I believe it clearly is physically superior to the Bundesliga, at least in the way I understand that term. You could say it's a rougher playing style overall. I don't really believe that the pace in the Premier League is higher than in the Bundesliga though, which is often stated. The pace in Germany is beyond crazy at the moment, everyone is playing pressing, everything is about quick transitions and counterattacking, the most goals scored since the 70's and probably even more chances created. I'm not surprised that Bundesliga teams run a lot more than English teams do, if you look at the style of the league at the moment. It's insane.

 

[acnumber9]

I'm not even trying to be condescending. What can I do if you're not getting it? you're missing a couple things which for someone who said they knew the situation well is a bit surprising.

To your second question. So for the 10 position, Mata starts over Kagawa but that doesnt necessarily mean he doesn't rate Kagawa. Again from all that is out there, I shouldn't need to say anymore but if you want to draw your own conclusions from that, suit yourself.

I mean "midfield" is sort of vague unless you specify where in midfield.

What is it I'm not 'getting'? Saying somebody isn't getting something and not even attempting to explain what you're talking about is pretty condescending.

All that is out where? Let's deal in facts. He barely featured in pre season despite us having limited numbers. He didn't play a minute in the league and was sold for a relative pittance. All this versus what you believe Van Gaal maybe said in Germany.

I said in central midfield. I'd say that's fairly specific.

 

[In Rainbows]

What is it I'm not 'getting'? Saying somebody isn't getting something and not even attempting to explain what you're talking about is pretty condescending.

All that is out where? Let's deal in facts. He barely featured in pre season despite us having limited numbers. He didn't play a minute in the league and was sold for a relative pittance. All this versus what you believe Van Gaal maybe said in Germany.

I said in central midfield. I'd say that's fairly specific.

He barely featured in pre season? Well LVG used the same starters in attack throughout the pre season and Mata was clearly ahead of him. Which is why Kagawa usually came on as a 2nd half substitute like most subs. First he was tried in midfield and LVG clearly didn't rate him there. As a #10 he did well in pre season. LVG clearly stated that Kagawa was one of the team's best passers so we know he did like that attribute of him.

Mata being favored =/= Kagawa not being rated by LVG

 

[Gladiator]

What is it I'm not 'getting'? Saying somebody isn't getting something and not even attempting to explain what you're talking about is pretty condescending.

All that is out where? Let's deal in facts. He barely featured in pre season despite us having limited numbers. He didn't play a minute in the league and was sold for a relative pittance. All this versus what you believe Van Gaal maybe said in Germany.

I said in central midfield. I'd say that's fairly specific.

Well see it's also condescending to have the other person do the thinking for you. I'm not going to do that. So look at how the welbeck deal progressed and see if you get it. The context is already clear to both of us.

All that has been said from the relevant parties (LVG, Kagawa, Kagawa's agent).

Yes using words like "barely" is telling the facts when it's subjectively evaluative language. You act like we've played a lot of league football lol.
LVG gave praise about Kagawa in his time at Germany. There is no maybe. I mentioned he may have said other things afterwards.

Central midfield is specific enough? ha! Dearie me

 

[Gladiator]

He barely featured in pre season? Well LVG used the same starters in attack throughout the pre season and Mata was clearly ahead of him. Which is why Kagawa usually came on as a 2nd half substitute like most subs. First he was tried in midfield and LVG clearly didn't rate him there. As a #10 he did well in pre season. LVG clearly stated that Kagawa was one of the team's best passers so we know he did like that attribute of him.

Mata being favored =/= Kagawa not being rated by LVG

ah that's what it was. Probably wont be enough for acnumber though.

 

[acnumber9]

Well see it's also condescending to have the other person do the thinking for you. I'm not going to do that. So look at how the welbeck deal progressed and see if you get it. The context is already clear to both of us.

All that has been said from the relevant parties (LVG, Kagawa, Kagawa's agent).

Yes using words like "barely" is telling the facts when it's subjectively evaluative language. You act like we've played a lot of league football lol.
LVG gave praise about Kagawa in his time at Germany. There is no maybe. I mentioned he may have said other things afterwards.

Central midfield is specific enough? ha! Dearie me

Okay I'll reach for you and guess that you're referring to Welbeck seemingly wanting to leave. Would he want to leave if Van Gaal was going to play him enough. I'd say yes given he was a Utd fan. If he wasn't going to play him then what was the reason? Because he didn't think he was as good as his other options. He said as much.

What has been said by these parties? You're right we haven't played a lot of league football but in those games he still managed to find time to play Welbeck, Nani and Hernandez. All players destined to leave but not Kagawa. Again not great evidence he rated him.

How more specific would you like me to be? The centre of the middle of the pitch. Dearie you indeed. You have posted about any other subject than Kagawa in over a month so I think we could put you firmly in the Mad Winger camp when it comes to blind devotion to Kagawa.

 

[Man of Leisure]

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/barclays-pr...orussia-dortmund-after-manchester-united-exit

Kagawa re-signed for Borussia Dortmund at the end of last month after struggling to make an impact during his two years at Old Trafford under Sir Alex Ferguson and David Moyes.
Louis van Gaal took charge at United in the summer but made it clear Kagawa was free to leave after failing to buy into his "philosophy," and the Japan international said he was in no doubt as to his preferred destination.

"My decision was clear: I wanted to return to BVB and only to BVB," said Kagawa, who won two Bundesliga titles and the DFB-Pokal during his initial two-year stay at the Westfalenstadion. "I want to achieve success with this club again, and with no other."

Kagawa made 71 first-team appearances for United but, after showing promise during his debut campaign under Ferguson, he failed to register a single goal under Moyes last season.
"Only facts matter in football -- stats, goals, assists, titles -- and a lot was missing in this regard," he acknowledged. "That was probably why they no longer included me in their plans."
He added: "Everybody knows that my second year at Manchester United was particularly difficult. The manager did not really count on me, and the team was also on a bad run. That means I am all the more delighted to be back. My heart had remained at BVB anyway."

He declined to criticise Van Gaal, however, insisting it would be "unfair" to draw comparisons with BVB boss Jurgen Klopp. "I only worked under him for a month," he said.
Dortmund have not won a major trophy since Kagawa's exit in 2012, but he believes they remain serious contenders both in Germany and Europe.
"Fundamentally, I want to win everything -- that's my nature," said Kagawa, who scored on his return to action in a 3-1 win against Freiburg at the weekend. "We also have what we need -- the players and the coach -- to win titles.

"Having said that, we had that at Manchester and it didn't work. A lot of things have to click, but I hold the belief that this is absolutely possible here."
Bayern have dominated the Bundesliga in the last two seasons and Kagawa said: "Bayern have an unbelievable team with sensational players. We don't need to talk about that.
"They are a force, but it should our aspiration -- and also that of a few other Bundesliga teams -- to fight them with confidence and be able to beat them. We will do all we can for that."

Dortmund have put in some impressive performances so far this season despite missing key players like Marco Reus, Ilkay Gundogan and Mats Hummels through injury.
"The situation is difficult, but BVB has always had a team that is united and draws its strength from that," he said. "I am looking forward to the day when everyone's fit and we can bring all that quality to the pitch."

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Okay I'll reach for you and guess that you're referring to Welbeck seemingly wanting to leave. Would he want to leave if Van Gaal was going to play him enough. I'd say yes given he was a Utd fan. If he wasn't going to play him then what was the reason? Because he didn't think he was as good as his other options. He said as much.

What has been said by these parties? You're right we haven't played a lot of league football but in those games he still managed to find time to play Welbeck, Nani and Hernandez. All players destined to leave but not Kagawa. Again not great evidence he rated him.

How more specific would you like me to be? The centre of the middle of the pitch. Dearie you indeed. You have posted about any other subject than Kagawa in over a month so I think we could put you firmly in the Mad Winger camp when it comes to blind devotion to Kagawa.

These people need to be highlighted as Agenda posters...

People need to accept he did fail, as much as United failed him, it was down to both parties.

 

[Gladiator]

Okay I'll reach for you and guess that you're referring to Welbeck seemingly wanting to leave. Would he want to leave if Van Gaal was going to play him enough. I'd say yes given he was a Utd fan. If he wasn't going to play him then what was the reason? Because he didn't think he was as good as his other options. He said as much.

What has been said by these parties? You're right we haven't played a lot of league football but in those games he still managed to find time to play Welbeck, Nani and Hernandez. All players destined to leave but not Kagawa. Again not great evidence he rated him.

How more specific would you like me to be? The centre of the middle of the pitch. Dearie you indeed. You have posted about any other subject than Kagawa in over a month so I think we could put you firmly in the Mad Winger camp when it comes to blind devotion to Kagawa.

On Welbeck: There were specific things which happend on deadline day which is key to this whole conversation we're having about him. Start there and I think you'll see what I'm saying.

To the bolded part: we could go all day on the speculation that surrounded that situation (re: why he didn play) For all we know, he could have been already "gone". I dont think you or I have the energy for that

"How more specific would you like me to be? The centre of the middle of the pitch. Dearie you indeed. You have posted about any other subject than Kagawa in over a month so I think we could put you firmly in the Mad Winger camp when it comes to blind devotion to Kagawa"

jesus wept. This has nothing to do with kagawa when talking about central midfield and everything to do with not seeing the nuance in central midfield which you can split into different zones. You got to lighten up man otherwise your conclusions will lead you to dead ends.

The funny thing about me being in the kagawa thread is that it wasn intended. I only came on to check my inbox and then saw it as the first thing on main page. And I'm too much of a pedant to be on here regularly as you can see

 

[Atze-Peng]

I believe it clearly is physically superior to the Bundesliga, at least in the way I understand that term. You could say it's a rougher playing style overall. I don't really believe that the pace in the Premier League is higher than in the Bundesliga though, which is often stated. The pace in Germany is beyond crazy at the moment, everyone is playing pressing, everything is about quick transitions and counterattacking, the most goals scored since the 70's and probably even more chances created. I'm not surprised that Bundesliga teams run a lot more than English teams do, if you look at the style of the league at the moment. It's insane.

I guess we are at semantics and sport-philosophing here. Does "more" physical only means rougher playstyle? Does rougher play with less pace/movement makes it more physical?

For me at least the PL isn't more physical as I see more than body contact as part of physical. And as a result of it I don't see the PL more physical. Though thats my opinion and I won't declare it as an absolute truth.

 

[sammsky1]

very classy comments from him in the interview above.

I liked him a lot as a player and am sad for him that it never worked out. kagawa is a regretted loss from last seasons carnage, unavoidable collateral damage from the Moyes appointment.

Im sure he will quickly find his rhythm again at Dortmund and get his career right back on track very quickly. I wish him very well.

 

[Man of Leisure]

very classy comments from him in the interview above.

Agreed

 

[Spark]

My favourite ex not-that-good-actually-was-probably-shit-whilst-here-all-things-considered united player ever. Followed by Forlan.

 

[Man of Leisure]

My favourite ex not-that-good-actually-was-probably-shit-whilst-here-all-things-considered united player ever. Followed by Forlan.

On behalf of the CAF, thanks for your contribution!

 

[togg]

Not a bad word to say about him. Good player, wrong time probably...the best of luck to him. Sounds like a gentleman

 

[fishfingers15]

If he comes back, he'll be given a good welcome back.

 

[Cassidy]

It doesn't make him rubbish but there is absolutely nothing to suggest he rated him.

LVG is quoted as saying he was one of United best passers during the US tour... must have thought he was a good to say that.

 

[united_99]

He has actually never said anything bad about us or that the system is different orvanything, he has just always blamed himself various times.

 

[NoPace]

My favourite ex not-that-good-actually-was-probably-shit-whilst-here-all-things-considered united player ever. Followed by Forlan.

------Forlan-----MameDiouf----
---Kagawa---------Poborsky
--------Veron----Kleberson------
LB-------------------------RB
------Blanc-----???------------
-----------Howard------------

We really haven't seen that many fullbacks excel elsewhere after struggling here. Fabio will hopefully earn his way on the list when he ends up being a good fullback for, let's say, Sevilla. And maybe one of our CB's will move on and excel elsewhere to join Blanc.

 

[Spark]

------Forlan-----MameDiouf----
---Kagawa---------Poborsky
--------Veron----Kleberson------
LB-------------------------RB
------Blanc-----???------------
-----------Howard------------

We really haven't seen that many fullbacks excel elsewhere after struggling here. Fabio will hopefully earn his way on the list when he ends up being a good fullback for, let's say, Sevilla. And maybe one of our CB's will move on and excel elsewhere to join Blanc.

Yeah, that's a good shout. Who knows, Varela might come through somewhere (I doubt it, but he's young enough to do something). Blanc's always been a weird one, but for some reason I love that he played for United. Argument could be made for Shawcross to partner Blanc, he's an easily forgotten ex-United player. Carved a decent career out of being a total bell over at Stoke.

On topic, though, it's clear that Kagawa is a seriously gifted player that simply never suited us due sheer bad luck - final season of SAF and then Moyes' dreadful reign, followed by LvG's ruthless, but necessary, persona. Here's to him dominating the Bundesliga, again.

 

[OGkush]

you could argue he was a victim of circumstances in a way.

 

[Gladiator]

you could argue he was a victim of circumstances in a way.

imo once RVP came and mitten put out that report about rio and rooney wanting to stick to tried and trusted methods i def had my concerns

 

[Gladiator]

He has actually never said anything bad about us or that the system is different orvanything, he has just always blamed himself various times.

i was thinking about it the other day though. the type of players who are very self-critical who sometimes let that affect their confidence without realizing. Pretty sure Berbatov was the same way. You could tell he was trying in some games but seemed to be letting doubt and hesitation get the best of him.

 

[ZDwyr]

Nice interview. Respect Shinji, shame it didn't work out here but I hope he has a lot of success at Dortmund. If he ever comes back to OT to play I'd like to think he would get a warm reception.

 

[Sky1981]

1 + 1 equals 148. The manager doesn't make the decisions at Real Madrid, Bilbao couldn't reject our bid for Herrera and Monaco have problems with FFP. I also never said Kagawa was shit. You're having the argument you have created in your mind not the reality of what I've said.

Stop creating myths.

Players got sold, shit players got sold, good players got sold, even Ronaldo was sold, and there's 101 reasons when a player was sold, doesn't always means that the manager didn't rate them, it could have been Kagawa wants first team football and LVG knew he can't promise it to him.

SAF sold Neville and O'shea on the cheap, does it make him not rating those 2? Does it makes them a shit player?

All I'm saying is that LVG might have rated Kagawa (although clearly he rated Mata more), and decided it's best to move him on. You're making it seems as if LVG thinks he's shit from day 1

 

[Maroo]

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/barclays-pr...orussia-dortmund-after-manchester-united-exit

Such a classy interview. He's accepted his shortcomings (He's always done that), not gone after anybody and vowed to improve and move on.

 

[shamans]

you could argue he was a victim of circumstances in a way.

Read that as "victim of circumcision in a way". But no.. I disagree. He didn't really take the chances he was given.

 

[acnumber9]

Stop creating myths.

Players got sold, shit players got sold, good players got sold, even Ronaldo was sold, and there's 101 reasons when a player was sold, doesn't always means that the manager didn't rate them, it could have been Kagawa wants first team football and LVG knew he can't promise it to him.

SAF sold Neville and O'shea on the cheap, does it make him not rating those 2? Does it makes them a shit player?

All I'm saying is that LVG might have rated Kagawa (although clearly he rated Mata more), and decided it's best to move him on. You're making it seems as if LVG thinks he's shit from day 1

What myths am I creating? You're continually taking an an apple and comparing it to an orange. Fergie played those players for years before he sold them. Van Gaal sold Kagawa without giving him a minute of league football. He rated him so highly that even though we needed goals and Mata was playing poorly he didn't bring him on. He thought so much of his ability that against Sunderland he preferred to play Januzaj in a position he'd never played in before ahead of him. You can't point to a single reason why he did rate him.

 

[quackattack]

------Forlan-----MameDiouf----
---Kagawa---------Poborsky
--------Veron----Kleberson------
Büttner--------------------Varela
------Blanc-----Pique----------
-----------Howard----------

We really haven't seen that many fullbacks excel elsewhere after struggling here. Fabio will hopefully earn his way on the list when he ends up being a good fullback for, let's say, Sevilla. And maybe one of our CB's will move on and excel elsewhere to join Blanc.

I question the selecion of Blanc in the team, but whatever. Fiexed the lineup slightly. Not sure how well they fit, but just had to make a while team for the hell of it

I'm also sure that we could add Nevland up front who whent on to be a proven goalscorer in the Netherlands, perhaps the Portugese wonder, Bebe, or have 5 in the middle to include the very promising Kieren Richardson for some talent at the middle

 

[Sky1981]

What myths am I creating? You're continually taking an an apple and comparing it to an orange. Fergie played those players for years before he sold them. Van Gaal sold Kagawa without giving him a minute of league football. He rated him so highly that even though we needed goals and Mata was playing poorly he didn't bring him on. He thought so much of his ability that against Sunderland he preferred to play Januzaj in a
position he'd never played in before ahead of him. You can't point to a single reason why he did rate him.

You're creating the myth that Van Gaal really doesn't rate Kagawa. While it might be the truth, but your opinion and my opinion is both opinion, you might disagree with me, but that doesn't mean I'm creating apples and oranges.

I'm done with you.

You can't seem to understand the simple opinion people having and keep on attacking even people's opinion. And fwiw, opinions aren't necessarily backed with evidence, hence they're called opinion, not fact.

For the very last time : In my opinion, LVG rated him, but clearly he has 3 players to consider since they're all will be playing in Kagawa position. So he decided that he is the surplus to his requirement, and probably by that time had already made contacts with Dortmund, hence it's not necessary to play him any further. But that doesn't mean LVG didn't rate him.

 

[quackattack]

Stop creating myths.

Players got sold, shit players got sold, good players got sold, even Ronaldo was sold, and there's 101 reasons when a player was sold, doesn't always means that the manager didn't rate them, it could have been Kagawa wants first team football and LVG knew he can't promise it to him.

SAF sold Neville and O'shea on the cheap, does it make him not rating those 2? Does it makes them a shit player?

All I'm saying is that LVG might have rated Kagawa (although clearly he rated Mata more), and decided it's best to move him on. You're making it seems as if LVG thinks he's shit from day 1

Ronaldo, O'shea and Neville can't really compare to Kagawa when it comes to this. What would be more apropriate to call it is that LVG rated him LESS than the others then.

What myths am I creating? You're continually taking an an apple and comparing it to an orange. Fergie played those players for years before he sold them. Van Gaal sold Kagawa without giving him a minute of league football. He rated him so highly that even though we needed goals and Mata was playing poorly he didn't bring him on. He thought so much of his ability that against Sunderland he preferred to play Januzaj in a position he'd never played in before ahead of him. You can't point to a single reason why he did rate him.

I agree with this post.

 

[Sky1981]

Ronaldo, O'shea and Neville can't really compare to Kagawa when it comes to this. What would be more apropriate to call it is that LVG rated him LESS than the others then.


I agree with this post.

I'm not comparing the situations, I'm only stating that "being sold doesn't always mean you're not rated by your manager"

EDIT: and if you're following the thread, that's the point I'm making all along, that LVG rated him, but he got Mata ahead of him aka he rated Kagawa less than he rated Mata

 

[quackattack]

I'm not comparing the situations, I'm only stating that "being sold doesn't always mean you're not rated by your manager"

I have understood that, and I have stated several times already that there could be a series of factors here. He might simply have wanted to play for Dort. more than for United? And there is also a possibility that, yes he was rated to some extent, but not enaugh which make your argument valid as well, without being completely true either if you understand.

 

[Sky1981]

I have understood that, and I have stated several times already that there could be a series of factors here. He might simply have wanted to play for Dort. more than for United? And there is also a possibility that, yes he was rated to some extent, but not enaugh which make your argument valid as well, without being completely true either if you understand.

I'm already hiding behind the grand defence of "in my opinion" haven't i?

 

[quackattack]

I'm already hiding behind the grand defence of "in my opinion" haven't i?

Surely you are, and I have aknowledged the fact that is is your opinion. But here it is, as we can think of, two solutions. He either wasn't rated enaugh or he wanted to go.

 

[acnumber9]

You're creating the myth that Van Gaal really doesn't rate Kagawa. While it might be the truth, but your opinion and my opinion is both opinion, you might disagree with me, but that doesn't mean I'm creating apples and oranges.

I'm done with you.

You can't seem to understand the simple opinion people having and keep on attacking even people's opinion. And fwiw, opinions aren't necessarily backed with evidence, hence they're called opinion, not fact.

For the very last time : In my opinion, LVG rated him, but clearly he has 3 players to consider since they're all will be playing in Kagawa position. So he decided that he is the surplus to his requirement, and probably by that time had already made contacts with Dortmund, hence it's not necessary to play him any further. But that doesn't mean LVG didn't rate him.

Everything points to him not rating the player that highly. You can't point to a single factor that suggests he did. I think it's because you rate him and therefore Van Gaal must too. I haven't said he didn't rate him at all. I think he just didn't think he was good enough.

An opinion is normally garnered for a reason. You haven't been able to say why you think he rated him.

 

[do.ob]

What is even the point of that discussion? Why does it matter of van Gaal rated him or not?

 

[Mad Winger]

What is even the point of that discussion? Why does it matter of van Gaal rated him or not?

Because it sounds better for the Kagawa haters to say that he wasn't rated by 3 managers in a row, when in reality it was probably just Moyes who didn't rate him. After the latest interviews, we know that Fergie rated Kagawa highly and that the club was satisfied with his first season.

I'd be willing to bet anything on Van Gaal starting Kagawa if he was the one taking over after Fergie. Things obviously changed when he had to choose between a Kagawa without confidence and match fitness and a Mata who has gotten all the luxuries Kagawa never got(consistent playtime in his favored position, countless games in a row). Just because Van Gaal clearly prefers Mata over Kagawa, it doesn't mean he doesn't rate Kagawa.

Like I've said a million times before: it's aaaaaall Moyes. Whether you rate Moyes' decision making or not, is up you. I wont judge you. But don't spout blatant lies like Fergie not rating Kagawa(which has been disproved now) and Van Gaal not rating Kagawa(which is nothing but a theory, with little basis).

The only facts Kagawa critics have on their side, is that he wasn't good under Moyes(like 90% of our squad) and that Moyes' didn't rate him. All other things are wild theories and very subjective opinions.

 

[Kallech33]

Don't get the debate either.It's clear that van Gaal preferred Mata.
Kagawa didn't want to sit on the bench and waste another year. He clearly said he wanted to leave for Dortmund and no one else.
And that's all that's to the story of Kagawa leaving. Now Kagawa can be happy again and van Gaal still has enough options in Mata's position without having to care if another player is unhappy.