So what is the actual issue then?

[DomesticTadpole]

I have to keep battering the same point, it has nothing to do with formation, its got nothing to do with players, it's a lack of continuity/rhythm that's killing us.

Your side there is pretty much spot on, we should just play it and play and play it until it fecking clicks...and it will, it has to much quality in there not to, but I would probably switch the fullbacks

If RvP is injured and Falcao is so out of form, we might actually be able to play that team, with the fullbacks on the correct sides as you pointed out. Isn't it awful when you actually want someone to be injured.

 

[RedSky]

Problem is obvious for me. We have nothing coming from the right side of the pitch and that therefore makes us pretty simple to defend against. We have Shaw on the left who has been very weak going forward for most of the season. All teams know this and can defend against us easily because they're aware that our only genuine threat comes through the middle.

The other problem is that we have no real leadership at the back so our defense constantly looks ill disciplined. Teams know they can get at us because they're aware we don't have a leader, an organiser at the back.

Throw in injuries, a squad that lacks pace and you can get a general idea of the problems we face. We're easy to defend against and we're easy for teams to put us under pressure. The squad is all over the place tbh.

 

[Kraftwerker]

nice 4-2-3-1 could do a trick.


Shaw---Rojo--Smalling---Valencia

-----------Blind---Herrera

Young--------Mata--------ADM

--------------Rooney

I think Van Gaal is worried about a lack of height when playing a team like that.

I've been a big advocate of playing sides like the above, but without Fellaini (and RvP, who does a great job on defensive set pieces), we'd be leaving ourselves incredibly prone.

RvP simply has to be dropped though (and is injured now anyway). Fellaini will keep his place though, I'm sure of it.

 

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

Some of the problem is that Herrera and ADM are both expected to give us width, support the full backs defensively and support Blind. It's easy to catch us on the break when you get one pass through us. Couple this with the fact that we have 2 strikers pushed far forward and Fellaini's position is much closer to the strikers than it is to being in the 10 position. FWIW I think Herrera is pretty decent defensively (better than Fellaini, Ando, Clev, Giggs etc.) but the problem is we are asking them to cover too much ground while asking them to be our main playmakers too (Fellaini can't perform this role from 10 position). If we want to shore ourselves up defensively until the end of the season then a return to wingers while dropping a striker makes perfect sense. This frees up Herrera to play a more typical central role beside Blind and gives extra passing options for our defenders. We have won the League before with much defensively weaker midfields and aging defenders in our teams.

I know the forum had gone mad thinking we know what's best but the only thing that LVG hasn't tried yet is playing a one striker system. A system that our players are most used to (even when we had Rooney and RVP up top Wayne was always more of a 10 than an out and out striker). It's surely worth a go, it's not like we can get much worse both from an offensive and defensive viewpoint.

As far as i know we played 4-5-1 against Chelsea, City, West Brom and Crystal Palace.

 

[kidbob]

As far as i know we played 4-5-1 against Chelsea, City, West Brom and Crystal Palace.

Oh right I must have missed that. Considering we were supposedly better against Chelsea and City than we have been most of the season maybe it's the way to go. Although we obviously struggled for goals against Palace and West Brom too. TBF there's every chance we could be just as shit with that sort of system but with the form of our forwards it seems to be the only option we have.

Hopefully our form can miraculously pick up regardless of the formation.

 

[gasmanc]

If RvP is injured and Falcao is so out of form, we might actually be able to play that team, with the fullbacks on the correct sides as you pointed out. Isn't it awful when you actually want someone to be injured.

VP went out on crutches so he's certain to be out, Falcao has fallen out of favour so we might just see it.

I think Van Gaal is worried about a lack of height when playing a team like that.

I've been a big advocate of playing sides like the above, but without Fellaini (and RvP, who does a great job on defensive set pieces), we'd be leaving ourselves incredibly prone.

RvP simply has to be dropped though (and is injured now anyway). Fellaini will keep his place though, I'm sure of it.

That side quoted could accommodate Fellaini, him or Mata behind Rooney dependant on requirement but we need to play the same core of players surrounding them, it's becoming an increasing worry that Van Gaal has seemingly failed to settle on his best 11 players with over half the season gone.

 

[Sandikan]

VP went out on crutches so he's certain to be out, Falcao has fallen out of favour so we might just see it.



That side quoted could accommodate Fellaini, him or Mata behind Rooney dependant on requirement but we need to play the same core of players surrounding them, it's becoming an increasing worry that Van Gaal has seemingly failed to settle on his best 11 players with over half the season gone.

You do sometimes see people leave games with those protective boots on, and come back for the next game.

Hard to tell, expect it won't be too major.

 

[gasmanc]

You do sometimes see people leave games with those protective boots on, and come back for the next game.

Hard to tell, expect it won't be too major.

Either way he will just start RVP/Falcao/Wilson and Rooney as a two.

Ill be honest I am one of Van Persies biggest fans but seeing him leave in that boot was a horrible feeling of relief as I thought it might just see us play our (current) best players instead.

 

[Darwin09]

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but one weapon that is completely missing from our attacking options is outside shooting from the midfield. Teams have clearly found us out and know that we will maintain possession, go down the middle, get it out to the wing backs, cross it in, then repeat…the strategy of crowding the box and forcing us out to the wings has been working for the most part.

The "X" factor, I believe, in the latter Fergie years was that Scholes could unleash an accurate shot from anywhere within 30 yards, forcing teams to bring players forward to cover. We simply do not have that. Di Maria has tried but the only success has been a few occasions when he has mishit it so badly that it actually resulted in an assist. Of the rest of our midfielders, Rooney and Herrera have a good shot, but they prefer to penetrate since they have the skill to do so. I have not seen any of our other midfielders pose a threat from long-range shots.

The Jonjo Shelvey goal that defeated us yesterday was the perfect illustration. He did the same to get the winner against Southampton a few weeks ago, also totally against the run of play. Whatever our transfer options are in the summer, I would hope LvG (or his replacement) would be factoring this in. I believe a truly top team needs to have this as a dimension of their play.

 

[Skills]

I think Van Gaal is worried about a lack of height when playing a team like that.

I've been a big advocate of playing sides like the above, but without Fellaini (and RvP, who does a great job on defensive set pieces), we'd be leaving ourselves incredibly prone.

RvP simply has to be dropped though (and is injured now anyway). Fellaini will keep his place though, I'm sure of it.

It would help if he played our best CB every game. Playing Jones and Rojo we set a massive target on us anyway as they're both not very good aerially. Smalling had a dreadful game against Burnley for the most part but towards the end, when everything was being lumped it was him who was dominating our box and clearing everything in sight.

 

[LR7]

I remember after Holland beat Spain in the WC, LvG said:

"I said before we could beat Spain because they always want to attack. Spain always want to dominate.

"I wanted that also for 20 years. But you can't always attack. You must look at the players you have."

I feel like he knew the limitations of that team and played in a way to avoid exposing them. Same applies for us with the 3-5-2. I think he knew our limitations defensively (especially when Carrick was injured earlier on in the season), and so he set us up in a way that avoided our fragile defence being exposed.

Arsenal away was another example where LvG was happy to deviate from his true philosophy to exploit Arsenals weaknesses (like he did with Spain).

The onus on possession nullifies our best player - Di Maria. He's often running into congested areas because we have so much possession that the majority of the time the opposition are in a good defesve shape. Sometimes conceding possession for a period helps draw the opposition out which then creates space. I feel we need to do that more.

The big games coming up will probably bring the best out of LvG again.

Not to mention Carrick returning to full training next week. I think that will be massive for us.

 

[Rowem]

Play one striker, two wingers, and three midfielders are we're all good. The problem then is:

1. Trying to play two strikers
2. Not having top quality wingers

 

[Insanity]

and so he set us up in a way that avoided our fragile defence being exposed.

Did it stop our fragile defense from being exposed? If my memory serves me right, we looked clueless in defense with that set-up.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

I know the forum had gone mad thinking we know what's best but the only thing that LVG hasn't tried yet is playing a one striker system. A system that our players are most used to (even when we had Rooney and RVP up top Wayne was always more of a 10 than an out and out striker). It's surely worth a go, it's not like we can get much worse both from an offensive and defensive viewpoint.

I might be wrong but I think LVG tried that for 1 or 2 games at the beginning of the season. Cant remember which games and maybe I'm wrong. Should get back to it, I agree.

Playing 2 orthodox CFs doesnt make sense in this day and age. If he has to do it, we should go with Rooney-Wilson pair.
I hope now RVP is injured we wont see Falcao back in and if he will be back lets hope he'll get more service although lacking service isnt the only reason he's been crap. Cause its simple, he has been crap.

I think when Carrick is fit he might be fine, if he isn't going to be then he needs a partner. Problem is of course, some games we shouldn't need two midfielders sitting in front of the defence, if we had a decent defence our course. Have a commanding defence and it might not be such a risk having other teams attacking us.

Yup, if you have a shaky defense and practically one man midfield in defense you're in trouble. If we had a better defense for a start which doesnt panic every time they're attacked that would be a start.

I have to keep battering the same point, it has nothing to do with formation, its got nothing to do with players, it's a lack of continuity/rhythm that's killing us.

Your side there is pretty much spot on, we should just play it and play and play it until it fecking clicks...and it will, it has to much quality in there not to, but I would probably switch the fullbacks and CB's

What do you mean?

 

[Pexbo]

It's funny how any people have completely missed the point of this thread and still just suggest a formation, player or tactical change that they think would miraculously solve everything.

 

[CapeTownRed]

1. How do we remedy this?
2. He's injured. Again.
3. He's injured. Again.
4. Fair enough.
5. Welbeck? If that was all our pace we were in trouble anyway.
6. Absolute nonsense. Hernandez at his worst was as bad as any Premiership player I have seen while Welbeck at his worst as a striker couldn't hit a barn door.

Rafael's injured?

 

[gasmanc]

It's funny how any people have completely missed the point of this thread and still just suggest a formation, player or tactical change that they think would miraculously solve everything.

Not all have missed the point, its just that trying to give an answer means banging your head against a brick wall.

I'm about 98% certain it's nothing more than the fact we haven't made consistent team selections in a good run of games. Everything after that is being overthunk.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

It's funny how any people have completely missed the point of this thread and still just suggest a formation, player or tactical change that they think would miraculously solve everything.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you wrote about formations in your original post?

 

[gasmanc]

What do you mean?

You had Shaw at RB and Valencia at left, CB's also mixed.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

You had Shaw at RB and Valencia at left, CB's also mixed.

Ah, yeah, you're right. Anyway Shaw and Rojo at left, Smalling and Valencia at RB of course.

I like this thread, not a lot of overreacting here. I think I'll post only here till the end of the season. Reading rest of them is hurting me really. My head hurts and I feel sick.

 

[Parry Gallister]

I'm relaxed about us, I don't think the players we have are terrible, nor the manager. Look at Liverpool this season, they were utter, utter shite for the first part, then found their rhythm, regular starters and formation and have been playing decent, entertaining football since.

Rodgers was getting slated saying the new starters needed time back in December, but it has happened, to a degree (they haven't all worked out yet - i.e - Lovren). Ours have had less playing time than theirs due to injury and continuous squad/system changing. Van Gaal will get it right with us, just needs it all to click.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

I'm relaxed about us, I don't think the players we have are terrible, nor the manager. Look at Liverpool this season, they were utter, utter shite for the first part, then found their rhythm, regular starters and formation and have been playing decent, entertaining football since.

Rodgers was getting slated saying the new starters needed time back in December, but it has happened, to a degree (they haven't all worked out yet - i.e - Lovren). Ours have had less playing time than theirs due to injury and continuous squad/system changing. Van Gaal will get it right with us, just needs it all to click.

Problem is we're hanging to our 4th spot and our fixture list is going to be horrible pretty fast. It needs to click pretty fast if it will click especially regarding our away form.

 

[kidbob]

It's funny how any people have completely missed the point of this thread and still just suggest a formation, player or tactical change that they think would miraculously solve everything.

I haven't seen anyone claim that they can solve anything to be honest. We are playing shit football and now look in serious danger of missing out on top 4 again despite huge investment. Our manager hasn't found a way to get the best out of our team so I suppose it isn't a surprise that fans on a forum will discuss ways they feel the team should be set up. I certainly haven't sent LVG an email with my ideas expecting to see them implemented.

In the end I'll be watching on Saturday regardless of formation/tactics/players, cheering on the team and hoping we play better and ultimately win. As has been said if it looked like the manager had found our best formation then there would be a lot less talk of it on here.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

League yes, but in all competitions I think my stats are correct.

They are pretty shit stats though lets be honest.

What other competitions than the FA Cup, League Cup and BPL were we active in then?

ANyway they're definitely shite, RVP, Rooney, Mata & Falcao scoring 29 goals in almost 100 games combined. That;s not good, who would've thought that would happen? Still without those goals our results would've been much worse.

 

[Pexbo]

I haven't seen anyone claim that they can solve anything to be honest. We are playing shit football and now look in serious danger of missing out on top 4 again despite huge investment. Our manager hasn't found a way to get the best out of our team so I suppose it isn't a surprise that fans on a forum will discuss ways they feel the team should be set up. I certainly haven't sent LVG an email with my ideas expecting to see them implemented.

In the end I'll be watching on Saturday regardless of formation/tactics/players, cheering on the team and hoping we play better and ultimately win. As has been said if it looked like the manager had found our best formation then there would be a lot less talk of it on here.

Look at the post I just made in another thread. It's really not huge investment. We lost 10 first team players in the Summer one way or another and spent an average of £25m on 6 players just trying to replace them. It's not the extravagant spend it's made out to be. It's literally spending market price trying to fill the holes that were left in the squad after a disastrous season.

 

[JPRouve]

What other competitions than the FA Cup, League Cup and BPL were we active in then?

ANyway they're definitely shite, RVP, Rooney, Mata & Falcao scoring 29 goals in almost 100 games combined. That;s not good, who would've thought that would happen? Still without those goals our results would've been much worse.

I know that you are not trying to defend these stats, but without those goals they should be fired, not sold, just fired.
Our attack is a much bigger problem than our defense.

 

[Pexbo]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you wrote about formations in your original post?

And yet you're still missing the point.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm relaxed about us, I don't think the players we have are terrible, nor the manager. Look at Liverpool this season, they were utter, utter shite for the first part, then found their rhythm, regular starters and formation and have been playing decent, entertaining football since.

Rodgers was getting slated saying the new starters needed time back in December, but it has happened, to a degree (they haven't all worked out yet - i.e - Lovren). Ours have had less playing time than theirs due to injury and continuous squad/system changing. Van Gaal will get it right with us, just needs it all to click.

The really big difference between the scousers was their settled spine of players used to playing together, under their current manager. We have no such luxury. Liverpool had to adapt to losing one excellent player and one long term injury to a key player and took until January to get their shit together.

We're basically an entirely new team, bar the central defenders (who've never been fit enough for long enough to form any kind of partnership) and misfiring and/or aging strikers. Under a manager who is trying to implement a whole new set of ideas about how to play. So stands to reason we might take longer than Liverpool to start performing.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

And yet you're still missing the point.

What exactly is the point. I dont think simple change of formation will change things. Just discussing the title of the thread. What exactly is the issue..

 

[Pexbo]

The really big difference between the scousers was their settled spine of players used to playing together, under their current manager. We have no such luxury. Liverpool had to adapt to losing one excellent player and one long term injury to a key player and took until January to get their shit together.

We're basically an entirely new team, bar the central defenders (who've never been fit enough for long enough to form any kind of partnership) and misfiring and/or aging strikers. Under a manager who is trying to implement a whole new set of ideas about how to play. So stands to reason we might take longer than Liverpool to start performing.

Bingo.

It's incredibly just how many people fail to recognise how much change has been made this season alone. 10 first teamers out, 6 first teamers in, 5 of which never played the league before and all playing under a manager who is also in his first season at the club, in his first season in this league desperately trying to gel together this new squad after having the first 6 months completely decimated by injuries to the point that he had to change his approach just to accomodate players in certain positions because he had nobody else to play there. He's now finally getting everyone back and has to figure out the best approach for these players, while still being without his most important player, all the while other teams in the league have had the chance to settle into their rythum for the run in.

 

[JPRouve]

What exactly is the point. I dont think simple change of formation will change things. Just discussing the title of the thread. What exactly is the issue..

There is no point, @Pexbo just wanted to complain about everyone opinions, he just wanted to show that everyone is wrong.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

The really big difference between the scousers was their settled spine of players used to playing together, under their current manager. We have no such luxury. Liverpool had to adapt to losing one excellent player and one long term injury to a key player and took until January to get their shit together.

We're basically an entirely new team, bar the central defenders (who've never been fit enough for long enough to form any kind of partnership) and misfiring and/or aging strikers. Under a manager who is trying to implement a whole new set of ideas about how to play. So stands to reason we might take longer than Liverpool to start performing.

Southampton lost a bunch of key players, have a new manager and have lesser players yet they are only one point behind us.

 

[Hostekule]

Bingo.

It's incredibly just how many people fail to recognise how much change has been made this season alone. 10 first teamers out, 6 first teamers in, 5 of which never played the league before and all playing under a manager who is also in his first season at the club, in his first season in this league desperately trying to gel together this new squad after having the first 6 months completely decimated by injuries to the point that he had to change his approach just to accomodate players in certain positions because he had nobody else to play there. He's now finally getting everyone back and has to figure out the best approach for these players, while still being without his most important player, all the while other teams in the league have had the chance to settle into their rythum for the run in.

While I agree we've made a huge overhaul this season you're leaving out all the mistakes LvG has made here though.

 

[kidbob]

Look at the post I just made in another thread. It's really not huge investment. We lost 10 first team players in the Summer one way or another and spent an average of £25m on 6 players just trying to replace them. It's not the extravagant spend it's made out to be. It's literally spending market price trying to fill the holes that were left in the squad after a disastrous season.

I get that and I know it probably seems like we all forget that we have lost some extraordinary players these last few years. To be honest I think we are trying to comfort ourselves into thinking that we will find a magic formation that will see us through to top 4. I know I'm worried about the consequences of missing out on top 4 again. I do trust LVG and I just hope we can find a way to sneak one of those places.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Southampton lost a bunch of key players, have a new manager and have lesser players yet they are only one point behind us.

I knew someone would mention Southampton. Just like Everton were constantly used as an example of managerial excellence last season. Sometimes it just clicks for a team under a new manager. Usually it's not that simple.

 

[Pexbo]

What exactly is the point. I dont think simple change of formation will change things. Just discussing the title of the thread. What exactly is the issue..

The whole point of the opening post was that the Caf in its infinite wisdom has latched on to the simplest of things time and time again and declared it the crux of the problem or the miraculous cure to the issue.

Then, one by one Van Gaal has tried these changes 3-5-2 change to Diamond, Di Maria back into Midfield, Rooney back up front, Herrera back in the side ect ect and funnily enough it's made either no difference or had a negative impact and the people who were calling Van Gaal stupid for not changing it before hand, completely ignore the fact they were wrong and move on to the next brilliant idea which at some point Van Gaal might coincidentally try and will probably again make no difference.

My tongue was firmly in my cheek when writing that post, especially the last bit yet that satire proved absolutely correct as a few hours after I posted this thread up pops another thread asking why we are not playing with wingers. So there you have it. LVG is stupid for not playing with wingers according to the Caf and that's the crux of the problem now.

Roll back to November when we were playing with Di Maria and Januzaj on the wings and the Caf was moaning about playing with wingers.

 

[Brophs]

I think the magic fix might be, I dunno, doing his job a sight better and hoping the players do the same.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

The whole point of the opening post was that the Caf in its infinite wisdom has latched on to the simplest of things time and time again and declared it the crux of the problem or the miraculous cure to the issue.

Then, one by one Van Gaal has tried these changes 3-5-2 change to Diamond, Di Maria back into Midfield, Rooney back up front, Herrera back in the side ect ect and funnily enough it's made either no difference or had a negative impact and the people who were calling Van Gaal stupid for not changing it before hand, completely ignore the fact they were wrong and move on to the next brilliant idea which at some point Van Gaal might coincidentally try and will probably again make no difference.

My tongue was firmly in my cheek when writing that post, especially the last bit yet that satire proved absolutely correct as a few hours after I posted this thread up pops another thread asking why we are not playing with wingers. So there you have it. LVG is stupid for not playing with wingers according to the Caf and that's the krux of the problem now.

Roll back to November when we were playing with Di Maria and Januzaj on the wings and the Caf was moaning about playing with wingers.

People here tend to moan a lot..
Diamond was a preferred formation here, now people want another formation. ( I want 4-2-3-1 for example )

And in the post above you pointed at a lot of things which were cause of our problems.

But did LVG help himself esp now we dont have so many injuries? Not exactly.
Playing Rooney in the midfield, playing with Falcao and RVP up front despite the fact they're out of form, constantly shifting ADM around, messing with CB pair even when we have 3 or 4 CBs fit being the prime example.

I know maybe this sounds exactly like you wrote in the thread, that people think the simplest of things are the problem but a lot of simple, small things caused a big problem for us this season.

Its not as easy as changing the formation and not playing Rooney in midfield for instance but in the same time its not as simple as you wrote above. Yes we have new players, new manager, we had a lot of injuries but nevertheless LVG didnt and isnt helping himself with some of his decisions. Not only that, our gameplay has been regressing in the same time while our players have been coming back from injuries.

Its not all his fault but he has a fair share of blame.

 

[grahamo]

Do the players feel guilty taking their wages every week?......They should!

 

[Theonas]

The one and only issue is that the answer to our problem is too boring for most people. It's time with practice and getting some rhythm. Problem though is that this is too boring for most, we like to think of that one tweak that is going to change everything. Last year people were calling on Moyes to play three fluid forwards with Kagawa, Januzaj and Mata behind Rooney or van Persie and that it all would click. Same thing has been happening this season with people calling for that one change that will fix everything. Until people accept that it is simply a matter of time, practice and getting some consistency in terms of selection and style and by time I don't mean the period between the last and next game. That's the other funny thing, you get a lot of reasonable acknowledging all of these issues but going ape all shite when the next game is not an improvement.

Is Van Gaal the right man to trust with this rebuilding? We can't be sure but if we had to bet on it, I would. Because of his record, experience and the authority he handles himself with. So for the moment, I am going to look at this season in practical terms; get the top 4 and go as far as possible in the FA Cup and start expecting proper improvement in terms of style next season.