Son Heung-min

[golden_blunder]

It's a combination of things:
* poor quality scouting and player recruitment system
* you keep changing managers (meaning that incoming players don't have as much time to settle and adapt to each manager)
* having a wages structure that is not as bonus-related as that of some others clubs (Spurs in particular), meaning less incentive to perform well
* paying wages that are too high too quickly, again meaning less incentive to perform well.
* the club being stuck in the 'galactico' mindset wherein (as you say) preference is given to signing established, big-name players.

I don’t think that our scouting system is any worse than Spurs - id argue that we’ve had different priorities driven by the change of managers.

Manchester United demands instant success, from partners, board and more importantly impatient fans. Thus we end up shopping for the so called proven players in recent times.

But you don’t have to go too far back in United’s past to see players we’ve taken a punt on who have been successful - Ronaldo being the best example

None of us know how Dalot for example will turn out, we just need the patience to find out.

I for one hope we forget the glamour signings for a while and concentrate on rebuilding the squad with quality young players, with hunger and potential.

It’s time for fans to stop talking out their arse about scouting systems

 

[PKK]

He is just a great player and entertaining to watch. Tall (184 cm) and versatile compared to small guys like Hazard, Salah, etc. Tremendous power and pace and shot on either foot. Can take it to the house and score from anywhere on the pitch.

No shot for United to get him?

 

[GlastonSpur]

I’m can’t be bothered to look it up in my HRM text book, but if you look at Maslow’s expectancy theory and intrinsic/extrinsic motivation theory you’d realize that someone driven by their own deeply rooted desires will have a stronger and more durable motivation to perform well than someone driven by the bonus on their contract. This explains it quite well.

Regarding your last paragraph, I spent the previous post trying to explain to you why that isn’t the case, but you’re just repeating yourself and you’ve got nothing to back it up with.

Yes, but what about those players who are not so strongly driven by deeply rooted desires? And even those who are, why would a strong bonus-payment wage system not provide even more incentive for them?

You seem to be trying to argue that bonus-related wages structures are a waste of time.

 

[Macern]

Yes, but what about those players who are not so strongly driven by deeply rooted desires? And even those who are, why would a strong bonus-payment wage system not provide even more incentive for them?

You seem to be trying to argue that bonus-related wages structures are a waste of time.

I believe professional footballers at this level need to have a strong deeply rooted desire to reach the top / a very strong love for playing football. Someone who is driven by contract bonuses rather than intrinsic motivational factors are unlikely to be good enough to play for Spurs or Man Utd (except for Adebayor lol).

You made the case that United’s lack of emphasis on bonuses in the wage structure was one of the reasons why the players didn’t perform as well as players from clubs like Spurs and you blatantly stated that a lack of this gave them less incentive to perform well. As I’ve explained this is not true. Also it can be more expensive than a structure with less emphasis on bonuses. So yes, my personal opinion is that wage structures with heavy emphasis on bonuses are a waste of time.

We’re derailing the thread so should probably move the discussion somewhere else if you have anything more to say.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I believe professional footballers at this level need to have a strong deeply rooted desire to reach the top / a very strong love for playing football. Someone who is driven by contract bonuses rather than intrinsic motivational factors are unlikely to be good enough to play for Spurs or Man Utd (except for Adebayor lol).

You made the case that United’s lack of emphasis on bonuses in the wage structure was one of the reasons why the players didn’t perform as well as players from clubs like Spurs and you blatantly stated that a lack of this gave them less incentive to perform well. As I’ve explained this is not true. Also it can be more expensive than a structure with less emphasis on bonuses. So yes, my personal opinion is that wage structures with heavy emphasis on bonuses are a waste of time.

We’re derailing the thread so should probably move the discussion somewhere else if you have anything more to say.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Spurs have had a wages-structure that is heavily weighted towards bonus payments for several years now. It's not had any obvious failure to work that I can see, both in terms of on-pitch performances and in terms of us largely retaining key players despite the wages gap compared other clubs when it comes to baseline wages.

 

[JJ12]

And no one is getting him for under that amount. We're all happy with that I think.

If Real wanted him (they won't) they would get him and they would get him for significantly less than £200m.

 

[bond19821982]

I'd have considered that last summer - now absolutely no chance.

Martial has the talent and he will turn out to be better player than Son under Poch. I don't think he will achieve that for us though unfortunately.

 

[Dumbstar]

If Real wanted him (they won't) they would get him and they would get him for significantly less than £200m.

I'll leave this here for your fellow Utd fans to quietly shake their heads at you.

 

[JJ12]

I'll leave this here for your fellow Utd fans to quietly shake their heads at you.

Ok, cool.

 

[dogwithabone]

And no one is getting him for under that amount. We're all happy with that I think.

So you’re saying Liverpool would turn down £199m ?

B*llocks would they.

 

[Dumbstar]

Ok, cool.

Listen I don't want to be rude. I was young once and didn't bother checking facts. Still don't.

Here's an article about our lesser player Mane and the fee we've asked for from Madrid. I'm sure you can extrapolate what you need for our Salah valuation from it:

https://www-express-co-uk.cdn.amppr...iverpool-Real-Madrid-Sadio-Mane-transfer-news

Cool.

 

[JJ12]

Listen I don't want to be rude. I was young once and didn't bother checking facts. Still don't.

Here's an article about our lesser player Mane and the fee we've asked for from Madrid. I'm sure you can extrapolate what you need for our Salah valuation from it:

https://www-express-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1109103/Liverpool-Real-Madrid-Sadio-Mane-transfer-news/amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE=#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1109103/Liverpool-Real-Madrid-Sadio-Mane-transfer-news

Cool.

I was a moron once and believed everything I read too.

Express

 

[Dumbstar]

I was a moron once and believed everything I read too.

Express

It's all we have. We're all doomed.

Ps. The express is quoting Ok Diario in Spain who have stated that figure. If they're pro-Real they wouldn't have made such an outlandish figure up. Thems the details my friend.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

If we signed him he would suddenly lose all his talent and turn to shit.

 

[Suedesi]

Good for Spurs taking a risk on him with the mandatory national service looming in the background. Now they've seen the benefits. Easily a 100mm player.

 

[Skills]

He is easily the best asian player ever existed.

He is at that elite tier winger level, examples: Robben, Ribery, Bale.

Bollocks.

 

[Skills]

If we signed him he would suddenly lose all his talent and turn to shit.

There would be calls for an upgrade after he's thrown into the deadwood club.

 

[VanHaal'sRedArmy]

Followed him since the Hamburg days. That goal against Chelsea was something I'll never forget... he ended up breaking his leg that same game iirc.

 

[meamth]

Bollocks.

Oh, and why is it bollocks?

This guy for 3 seasons scored at least 20 per season, assisted at least 10 times a season.

If that is not elite level, I don't know what your standard is.

 

[Angry Virginian]

Oh, and why is it bollocks?

This guy for 3 seasons scored at least 20 per season, assisted at least 10 times a season.

If that is not elite level, I don't know what your standard is.

I am a Spurs fan and I also think that it is semi-bollox. Son does not have the elite touches. Case in point is there was a through ball in the second half of the second City match that he messed up the second touch to let Kompany take the ball. Another one is his goal against City in the first tie when his first touch was quite bad. He does score a lot of goals so I think he is a tier below the true elites.

 

[Needham]

Martial has the talent and he will turn out to be better player than Son under Poch. I don't think he will achieve that for us though unfortunately.

Martial doesn't have what Son has mentally. Not sure he has what Son has at his feet either.

 

[Un4givableB]

I am a Spurs fan and I also think that it is semi-bollox. Son does not have the elite touches. Case in point is there was a through ball in the second half of the second City match that he messed up the second touch to let Kompany take the ball. Another one is his goal against City in the first tie when his first touch was quite bad. He does score a lot of goals so I think he is a tier below the true elites.

This

He's a top level player he wouldn't look out of place in any squad in the world but on the bench, no one would pay 90m for him.

 

[Fridge chutney]

If his contract is coming to an end or we can get him for under 30M we should do it.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

This

He's a top level player he wouldn't look out of place in any squad in the world but on the bench, no one would pay 90m for him.

Does he have the ability to sell t-shirts?

Terrific player, doesn’t have the profile of similar players, and so perhaps goes under the radar. Look at how he steps up when Spurs are without Kane. One of the best players in the league. I think he would be fantastic at Utd, but that simply is not going to happen.

 

[Un4givableB]

If his contract is coming to an end or we can get him for under 30M we should do it.

He's the point of the spear in a well coached and organized team, good teams like Spurs make players look better than they actually are, we should know, we used to be that team.

 

[Jacob]

If we signed him he would suddenly lose all his talent and turn to shit.

This is my fear with anyone.

 

[Rozay]

Son is at least as good a player as Harry Kane, but in this country, he will always seem second-fiddle as the media are only interested in Kane.

 

[hellohello]

Feel like Kane is the one who is underappreciated today. As good as Son is, we really missed Kane today with his hold up play and overall game. And even though we scored at home against City after Kane went off injured I feel we played better with him.

 

[Rozay]

Feel like Kane is the one who is underappreciated today. As good as Son is, we really missed Kane today with his hold up play and overall game. And even though we scored at home against City after Kane went off injured I feel we played better with him.

I never suggested you don’t need Kane. You need both. But Kane is not superior to Son.

 

[Dec9003]

Kane absolutely is better than Son.
Son is a really good player, but Kane is fantastic.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I never suggested you don’t need Kane. You need both. But Kane is not superior to Son.

I mean he is though, isn't he? Like he objectively is a better, more accomplished player.

Son is the flavour of the month, not so long ago he was back to his inconsistent self. He's been vital for us recently but he hasn't suddenly become better than Kane who scored 40+ last season and has won two golden boots.

Son is more explosive and eye catching, but Kane's all round game is far more polished, he's the more reliable finisher and he's the vastly superior passer of the ball. They're very different to each other but Son has a way to go to catch up with Kane because he's only really been showing elite level form for a relatively short period of time, Kane has been doing it for seasons.

When all said and done, an on form Kane is still our best player. Like @hellohello says I think we've missed Kane a lot in both the City games, he would have been invaluable with his ability to win free kicks and hold the ball up and another big threat from set pieces.

 

[Rozay]

I mean he is though, isn't he? Like he objectively is a better, more accomplished player.

Son is the flavour of the month, not so long ago he was back to his inconsistent self. He's been vital for us recently but he hasn't suddenly become better than Kane who scored 40+ last season and has won two golden boots.

Son is more explosive and eye catching, but Kane's all round game is far more polished, he's the more reliable finisher and he's the vastly superior passer of the ball. They're very different to each other but Son has a way to go to catch up with Kane because he's only really been showing elite level form for a relatively short period of time, Kane has been doing it for seasons.

When all said and done, an on form Kane is still our best player. Like @hellohello says I think we've missed Kane a lot in both the City games, he would have been invaluable with his ability to win free kicks and hold the ball up and another big threat from set pieces.

Been a very long month.

He isn’t supposed to score as many goals as Kane, being the support forward, but I believe he’s been as good a support forward as Kane has been a centre forward over the last two seasons. He’s a 20 goal player approx for the last two seasons I believe, and for the second striker, that is pretty much as good as you can ask. He turns up when it matters time and again. What Kane has over him in hold-up play, he is miles behind in terms of stretching opposition and generally terrifying defenders. I think ‘polished’ is an unfair term too, in comparison. It’s far easier to be ‘polished’ when your game is to not try anything too fancy, so to speak. Kane does what he does exceptionally well, and Son brings something else.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Been a very long month.

He isn’t supposed to score as many goals as Kane, being the support forward, but I believe he’s been as good a support forward as Kane has been a centre forward over the last two seasons. He’s a 20 goal player approx for the last two seasons I believe, and for the second striker, that is pretty much as good as you can ask. He turns up when it matters time and again. What Kane has over him in hold-up play, he is miles behind in terms of stretching opposition and generally terrifying defenders. I think ‘polished’ is an unfair term too, in comparison. It’s far easier to be ‘polished’ when your game is to not try anything too fancy, so to speak. Kane does what he does exceptionally well, and Son brings something else.

Not really. Nobody was saying Son is better than Kane last season. Son is on 12 goals in the league and 4 in the CL, he's had plenty of poor patches of form and has a tendency to drop off the radar for stretches, but people seem to forget about that when he's having a purple patch. This is probably Kane's weakest season in a while and he's struggled a bit with injuries, but his numbers are still very solid and match up to Son's. Like I said, only last season he banged in 40+ in all comps, including a number of vital goals in huge games. People have short memories in football and you seem to be only as good as your last game.

Clearly right now he's the man in form and an exceptional player, but no he hasn't been as consistent as Kane has for the last two seasons. Actually quite often when they've played together he's been the more advanced forward and Kane has dropped deep and played the support role, but Son has often failed to impress in that system and seems to prefer to be the sole man up top. He's played a lot as a wide forward and mostly simply been 'good' in that role but again, prone to inconsistent form at times.

He's turned up when it matters a lot recently, and I love him as a player, but Kane is still better. Son is faster and the better dribbler and Kane is the more clinical striker, more of an aerial threat, offers superior hold up play, a far better passer of the ball and generally the more complete forward. The idea that Kane doesn't try anything 'fancy' is odd since he's constantly trying to shoot from angles most players wouldn't dream of, and plays passes that most forwards (including Son) wouldn't even see.

It wasn't even that long ago that Son was being dropped again because he had one of his invisible periods (when Kane was re-introduced and they played up top together). He's had a few excellent games against City (where there was a lot of space on the break due to the nature of the game) and suddenly he's better than a guy who has been smashing in 20+ league goals season after season? It's all a bit silly. These games suited Son down to the ground, he's generally far less of a threat when you minimise the space in behind.

If Son wants to be recognised as a player on the same level/better as Kane, he needs to have a season with 20+ league goals where he improves his consistency. His finishing is still a big issue for me, sometimes he's incredibly clinical and comes up with brilliant finishes, but other times he's missing easy 1 on 1 chances that Kane puts away 9/10 times. His technique can also sometimes still be a bit erratic.

 

[Liver_bird]

Would love him here would fit in quite well up top or off the left. That said he’s nowhere near the player Kane is. Unfortunately he isn’t going to be easily prized away as spurs will want far more than he’s actually worth.

 

[iammemphis]

Some posters need to give their head a wobble, Son is pretty much Spurs best player. He is a big game performer and gives 100% in every match, unlike the majority of our squad.

I would throw a deal worth £100m at him easy.

 

[haram]

Son is good but not better than Kane.

 

[meamth]

I mean he is though, isn't he? Like he objectively is a better, more accomplished player.

Son is the flavour of the month, not so long ago he was back to his inconsistent self. He's been vital for us recently but he hasn't suddenly become better than Kane who scored 40+ last season and has won two golden boots.

Son is more explosive and eye catching, but Kane's all round game is far more polished, he's the more reliable finisher and he's the vastly superior passer of the ball. They're very different to each other but Son has a way to go to catch up with Kane because he's only really been showing elite level form for a relatively short period of time, Kane has been doing it for seasons.

When all said and done, an on form Kane is still our best player. Like @hellohello says I think we've missed Kane a lot in both the City games, he would have been invaluable with his ability to win free kicks and hold the ball up and another big threat from set pieces.

Would you put Son alongside Coutinho in terms of quality?

 

[hasanejaz88]

Son is on a great run of form but he isn't near Kane or even Martial for that matter. I wouldn't pick Son over them, Martial has a much higher upside.

 

[Freak]

Son is on a great run of form but he isn't near Kane or even Martial for that matter. I wouldn't pick Son over them, Martial has a much higher upside.

I'd take Son over Martial any day. Talent only goes so far, you need a strong mentality to be a top player and I don't think Martial has that. And Son works harder than Martial.

 

[Jeffthered]

I don’t think that our scouting system is any worse than Spurs - id argue that we’ve had different priorities driven by the change of managers.

Manchester United demands instant success, from partners, board and more importantly impatient fans. Thus we end up shopping for the so called proven players in recent times.

But you don’t have to go too far back in United’s past to see players we’ve taken a punt on who have been successful - Ronaldo being the best example

None of us know how Dalot for example will turn out, we just need the patience to find out.

I for one hope we forget the glamour signings for a while and concentrate on rebuilding the squad with quality young players, with hunger and potential.

It’s time for fans to stop talking out their arse about scouting systems

Just to respond to your points in bold, so you don't think we should target a couple of top signings this summer?

We have a lot of 'young' players who the club are heavily invested in..., Cheung, Greenwood, Dalot, Rashford, McT .. Martial (although I am not convinced with him unfortunately..) ... Luke Shaw. That's quite a few.

What I feel we need are a few top, top players to augment , and inspire that crop.