Sorry, but why is Rashford rated here? (Read the context)

[bosnian_red]

it depends how we define ‘good’. If we take a look at the goals in the Premier league, Rashford had his best tally in the 19-20 season with 17 goals. The other 5 seasons have been 11 max.

this also boils down to the question what do we actually expect Rashford to be? Many agree that he isn’t a traditional striker. Left winger? That would be the position he should focus on, no?

the overall theme of this thread is that Rashford is indeed a talented player, but he will enter his 7th season and we are still discussing what his best position is. I’m of the opinion that he lacks that ‘killer mentality’ to become world class.

does every player need to become world class? If they can, why not?

can every talented player become world class? Absolutely not.

There is no discussion about his best position, he's a left inside forward? He's a player with a great big game record. Who scores and creates loads of goals. Who will put his body on the line for club and country. Who is as good of a man as any to have ever played for this club. And is a local United guy.

Rashford might not be world class, but he has the talent and occasionally will have world class performances, while generally being a top player regardless. That's what he is, and that's more than fine. He's our long term left winger sorted out.

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

There is no discussion about his best position, he's a left inside forward? He's a player with a great big game record. Who scores and creates loads of goals. Who will put his body on the line for club and country. Who is as good of a man as any to have ever played for this club. And is a local United guy.

Rashford might not be world class, but he has the talent and occasionally will have world class performances, while generally being a top player regardless. That's what he is, and that's more than fine. He's our long term left winger sorted out.

a sensible post. Just for further analysis, what do we expect from a left winger at United in terms of statistics? Putting an effort in is great, but there has to be another criteria in terms of effectiveness.

what should the minimum tally be for a United left winger in terms of goals and assists?

 

[bosnian_red]

Like always, the truth is in the middle. Rashford is a good player with potential to be great. However, he's also overrated here since he moved to the first team. I don't know why he has not developed as we all hope he would have - but he needs to make that step up soon, like Luke Shaw did

He was brilliant in 2019 and then got a stress fracture in his back. Then came back, was brilliant for another half season until he started blatantly playing with injuries but we had no depth, he was still producing numbers so he fought through.

To claim Rashford hasn't developed or made a step up is horse shit. He has back to back 20 goal seasons as a left winger, but lost form with all the injuries. Now he's off to get surgery and finally we have depth so he doesn't need to be overplayed. This guy puts his body and career longevity on the line for the club, and absolute cnuts on here give him nothing but shit for it. Seriously, a look through this thread and it's so easy to spot the dickheads from the rest, just on how they treat an absolute gem like Marcus Rashford.

 

[Hugh Jass]

The only reason you bumped this thread was because Rashford took a poor penalty and you saw a convenient way to get across your viewpoint once more. It strikes me as pretty crass and has nothing to do about constructive criticism at all because he literally played one minute of football last night.

Agreed.

 

[Offside]

I’m worried about him he’s been hopeless for months now. Clearly struggles massively with confidence. If he’s got an injury or whatever just get it sorted we can manage in the meantime.

 

[Tomuś]

it depends how we define ‘good’. If we take a look at the goals in the Premier league, Rashford had his best tally in the 19-20 season with 17 goals. The other 5 seasons have been 11 max.

this also boils down to the question what do we actually expect Rashford to be? Many agree that he isn’t a traditional striker. Left winger? That would be the position he should focus on, no?

the overall theme of this thread is that Rashford is indeed a talented player, but he will enter his 7th season and we are still discussing what his best position is. I’m of the opinion that he lacks that ‘killer mentality’ to become world class.

does every player need to become world class? If they can, why not?

can every talented player become world class? Absolutely not.

His overall numbers in last two season are good in all competition.

And if he can become a wc player, I don't know. I will be happy if he reaches 30 goals in all comps in the next few years. That plus a bunch of assists will make him good enough where wa aspire to be.

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

I think one of the reasons why Utd fans are pissed at him is because, he delayed the operation on his shoulder and ankle was it, when he should have concentrated on getting back fit for the next season, not only he went to the world cup and hardly got a kick (which he should have known that he is behind the pecking order), he will now miss the start of the season for Utd and will not be match fit for first few months, consequently have a slow start.

Whereas with his timely operation and proper healing he would have joined the squad and be ready from the get go for pre-season. He clearly put England ahead of Utd despite knowing, he will only be a bit part player at most, which has caused the anger with fans, aside from the penalty miss and other shenanigans he carries with himself.

 

[anant]

If someone doesn't rate Marcus Rashford, they are either racist or biased or just plain dumb. Have a look at teams he's scored against:

Arsenal - 2 (brace on PL debut)
City - 4 (1 in his rookie season, 1 in the 2-1 loss under Mou, 1 in the 2-1 win at Etihad in 19/20, another goal vs them in LC semis
Pool - 5 (brace vs Pool, 1 in FA cup last season, off DJ's cross in the 1-1 draw at OT, 1 in 4-2 loss)
PSG - 3 (stoppage time pen to knock them out, 2 vs PSG in CL last season)
Chelsea -5 (1 in that Herrera vs Hazard game, brace vs Chelsea in the 4-0 win, brace vs them again in LC )
Spurs - 3 (1 in Ole's interim period, brace vs Spurs in Mou's 3rd game there) ,
RBL- 3 (hat trick)

That's 25 goals against really good opposition and he's just 23! And I haven't even included the assists he's had. Also, remember that he isn't anymore the penalty taker, and hasn't started as the #9 that often.

The guy is insanely talented, and a bad game here or there should mean absolutely nothing. He has 88 goals for us. At this stage Rooney (arguably the greatest wonderkid England have produced) had 114, and he had played 40 more matches and was playing mostly as a striker and in an all conquering Utd side)

He has blistering pace and more often than not an end product to go along with the one of the finest dribbling ability in the league. He can literally shoot from anywhere - 6 yards or 30 yards - it doesn't make a difference to him.

And lastly, he is an asset to the society and every single person Utd fan should be proud that he plays for us

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I think one of the reasons why Utd fans are pissed at him is because, he delayed the operation on his shoulder and ankle was it, when he should have concentrated on getting back fit for the next season, not only he went to the world cup and hardly got a kick (which he should have known that he is behind the pecking order), he will now miss the start of the season for Utd and will not be match fit for first few months, consequently have a slow start.

Whereas with his timely operation and proper healing he would have joined the squad and be ready from the get go for pre-season. He clearly put England ahead of Utd despite knowing, he will only be a bit part player at most, which has caused the anger with fans, aside from the penalty miss and other shenanigans he carries with himself.

Firstly, Euros not the World Cup.

Second, you can't say with confidence that he knew he was going to be a bit part player. Even if that were true, he makes that spot kick last night and England are probably Champions.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Wow lads. Poor form. Bloody foreigners, eh?

You're right, was in poor taste. Emotions all over the place after yesterday but not helped by the WUMs.

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

His overall numbers in last two season are good in all competition.

And if he can become a wc player, I don't know. I will be happy if he reaches 30 goals in all comps in the next few years. That plus a bunch of assists will make him good enough where wa aspire to be.

Nobody knows, only time will tell. It helps in the overall Judgement of any player if there is a realistic expectation. There are many posters who judge a player based on what they CAN become rather then what they actually are.

Yes, nobody can deny that double figure goals arent good.

Im merely stating that like you i am of the opinion that he lacks a killer mentality to push him in making that world class development. That is fine, not every United player or any player for that matter can become world class.

with a realistic expectation in mind, it makes it easier to judge a player based on what he is rather then what he can be.

what would your criteria be in terms of goals and assists for an United winger?

 

[Tincanalley]

First off, no blame on him for last night. Second of all, good lad, great talent. Third if all, he needs to take a step up in application and focus and decision making. He’s a bit distracted it seems sometimes - can’t be easy. Let’s hope he gets his op, gets rested and gets his head straight for a record breaking run next season.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

what would your criteria be in terms of goals and assists for an United winger?

Double-double preferably but at least 20 all tolled.

 

[OL29]

I think one of the reasons why Utd fans are pissed at him is because, he delayed the operation on his shoulder and ankle was it, when he should have concentrated on getting back fit for the next season, not only he went to the world cup and hardly got a kick (which he should have known that he is behind the pecking order), he will now miss the start of the season for Utd and will not be match fit for first few months, consequently have a slow start.

That’s completely unfair. To expect him to miss a major tournament on home soil, an opportunity he’ll likely never get him again is just naive. Even with his lack of game time, he still played in the first final this country has reached in 60 years. He’d be a cool to miss out.

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

If someone doesn't rate Marcus Rashford, they are either racist or biased or just plain dumb. Have a look at teams he's scored against:

Arsenal - 2 (brace on PL debut)
City - 4 (1 in his rookie season, 1 in the 2-1 loss under Mou, 1 in the 2-1 win at Etihad in 19/20, another goal vs them in LC semis
Pool - 5 (brace vs Pool, 1 in FA cup last season, off DJ's cross in the 1-1 draw at OT, 1 in 4-2 loss)
PSG - 3 (stoppage time pen to knock them out, 2 vs PSG in CL last season)
Chelsea -5 (1 in that Herrera vs Hazard game, brace vs Chelsea in the 4-0 win, brace vs them again in LC )
Spurs - 3 (1 in Ole's interim period, brace vs Spurs in Mou's 3rd game there) ,
RBL- 3 (hat trick)

That's 25 goals against really good opposition and he's just 23! And I haven't even included the assists he's had. Also, remember that he isn't anymore the penalty taker, and hasn't started as the #9 that often.

The guy is insanely talented, and a bad game here or there should mean absolutely nothing. He has 88 goals for us. At this stage Rooney (arguably the greatest wonderkid England have produced) had 114, and he had played 40 more matches and was playing mostly as a striker and in an all conquering Utd side)

He has blistering pace and more often than not an end product to go along with the one of the finest dribbling ability in the league. He can literally shoot from anywhere - 6 yards or 30 yards - it doesn't make a difference to him.

And lastly, he is an asset to the society and every single person Utd fan should be proud that he plays for us

It’s good that you have taken the time to write a big comment like this.

the theme of this thread is NOT about denying Rashford’s talent. Its about wether he can make that final push in becoming world class.

if he can’t, that is fine, not every winger can become world class.

however a genuine question is, as he is entering his 7th season, what should the minimum requirement be for a winger at United in terms of goals and assists?

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

Double-double preferably but at least 20 all tolled.

fair enough and the minimum in terms of the premier league when the team is striving for a premier league title?

edit: I assume that you mean a minimum of 10 PL goals as double double.

 

[Ixion]

however a genuine question is, as he is entering his 7th season, what should the minimum requirement be for a winger at United in terms of goals and assists?

Well since only Fernandes has contributed more goals and assists than Rashford we'll be looking for a lot of new players if there's a minimum requirement.

 

[bosnian_red]

a sensible post. Just for further analysis, what do we expect from a left winger at United in terms of statistics? Putting an effort in is great, but there has to be another criteria in terms of effectiveness.

what should the minimum tally be for a United left winger in terms of goals and assists?

I wouldn't say there's a minimum number. Doesn't really work like that in football. Rooney was a striker for us and is our all time top scorer, yet only once got back to back 20+ goal seasons. Rashford was borderline world class in 19/20 before the injury, then got back and finished well. Then was the same in the first half of 20/21. He lost form after for very understandable reasons, it happens.

If we are to put a demand on stats from players, Rashford more than gets enough so I wouldn't worry about that, as he's been one of the most productive wingers in world football the past 2 seasons.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

fair enough and the minimum in terms of the premier league when the team is striving for a premier league title?

edit: I assume that you mean a minimum of 10 PL goals as double double.

The same. Relying on wide attackers to have 30 goal seasons is crazy. If they can contribute to 20 or more goals either directly or indirectly your team is in good shape. A wide attacker getting 15 and 15 would be incredible.

 

[bosnian_red]

I’m worried about him he’s been hopeless for months now. Clearly struggles massively with confidence. If he’s got an injury or whatever just get it sorted we can manage in the meantime.

That's the thing, we couldn't manage before. Now we have Sancho so we'll be ok of course, but the last 2 seasons hes had to be overplayed because of others getting injured or just no depth, and Rashford being desperate to succeed with us. I don't think it's confidence at all with him. It's fitness and being fresh. He barely played all competition and then is put on in the 120th min to take a pen. That's just horrific management and nothing else.

 

[Castia]

Course he's rated

He's scored 20 goals from the wing in 2 consecutive seasons. This season didn't end so well but it's clear he's been injured for months and will now go for surgery.

Top player who will no doubt score 20 goals again next season if he's fit.

 

[bosnian_red]

The same. Relying on wide attackers to have 30 goal seasons is crazy. If they can contribute to 20 or more goals either directly or indirectly your team is in good shape. A wide attacker getting 15 and 15 would be incredible.

It's also weird to obsess over stats for every player. Most teams have 1 or 2 main scorers who funnel a lot of the chances, and then 1 or 2 guys who make the final passes... a player can be world class without having 20 goals and 20 assists in the league. The goals and assists can be split up, but everyone can know while watching if a player is pulling their weight or not. Sancho I doubt will score too many for us. Probably not among the top 3 or 4 scorers for us. But he provides so much to build up and tempo for the team to break down opponents that his play will be invaluable. Rashford specifically is a wide forward so of course a bit more reliant on the stats, but at the same time... he's one of the most productive wingers in the world, so that's not even close to being an issue.

 

[OL29]

You're right, was in poor taste. Emotions all over the place after yesterday but not helped by the WUMs.

“I’m not racist, he provoked me”

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

I wouldn't say there's a minimum number. Doesn't really work like that in football. Rooney was a striker for us and is our all time top scorer, yet only once got back to back 20+ goal seasons. Rashford was borderline world class in 19/20 before the injury, then got back and finished well. Then was the same in the first half of 20/21. He lost form after for very understandable reasons, it happens.

If we are to put a demand on stats from players, Rashford more than gets enough so I wouldn't worry about that, as he's been one of the most productive wingers in world football the past 2 seasons.

Rooney became an all time topscorer for United with having more ‘spread out’ statistics consisting of two 30+ goal seasons, two 20+ goal seasons, two 19+ goal seasons, two 18+ goal seasons. My point here is that in 13 seasons Rooney only had 1 season where he didn’t score a minimum of 15 goals a season. 253 goals in 559 were goals more ‘spread our’ rather then (where I agree with you) consecutive back to back 20+ goals a season.

Another poster said double figures and that is fine for a talented winger.

the positive here is that more posters seem to understand that this is NOT a bashing thread, but a civil thread formulating a realistic profile of Rashford and judging him based on what he is rather then what he could become.

it holds value to have statistics, surely they can be interpret in different ways, however I do think you’d agree that there should be objective criteria to judge any player ? Considering you said Rashford has been the most productive winger in the past two season, that is based off statistics, correct?

I do however agree that statistics don’t tell the whole story, but like managers who get sacked for not performing, there are certain standards and criteria to judge players or else any player who could lace his booths would be playing at the highest levels.

 

[anant]

It’s good that you have taken the time to write a big comment like this.

the theme of this thread is NOT about denying Rashford’s talent. Its about wether he can make that final push in becoming world class.

if he can’t, that is fine, not every winger can become world class.

however a genuine question is, as he is entering his 7th season, what should the minimum requirement be for a winger at United in terms of goals and assists?

Rashford had 34 G+A this season in all competitions. Remove pens and it is 32 G+A.

Kane in 2016/17 when he was Rashord's age had 40 G+A, 34 after excluding pens. This despite Kane playing as a striker!
Rooney in 2008/09 when he was Rashford's age had 26 G+A (including just PL and CL). Rashford had 26 as well (25 after excluding pens, and utd going out in GS)
Ronaldo in 2008/09 when he was Rashford's age had 30 G+A (including just PL and CL), 22 after excluding pens. Rashford had 26 as well (25 after excluding pens, and utd going out in GS)

Barring a handful of players, like Messi, Rashford will come good against proabbly every WC player when they were this age.

For a winger, I expect somewhere around 25-30 non penalty G+A across all competitions. Before people go around saying that might say it's a low bar, KdB had 34 non penalty G+A in his best season at City and I believe he is WC.

 

[Tomuś]

Nobody knows, only time will tell. It helps in the overall Judgement of any player if there is a realistic expectation. There are many posters who judge a player based on what they CAN become rather then what they actually are.

Yes, nobody can deny that double figure goals arent good.

Im merely stating that like you i am of the opinion that he lacks a killer mentality to push him in making that world class development. That is fine, not every United player or any player for that matter can become world class.

with a realistic expectation in mind, it makes it easier to judge a player based on what he is rather then what he can be.

what would your criteria be in terms of goals and assists for an United winger?

Criteria got skewed in recent times with all the tactical tweaks with invernet wingers etc. Then the wingers themselves have different functions, some are more defensively instructed.

I think 25-30 g/a in all comps for the more defensive one.

40 g/a (30 g 10 a.) In all comps for Rashford.

 

[Withnail]

the positive here is that more posters seem to understand that this is NOT a bashing thread, but a civil thread formulating a realistic profile of Rashford and judging him based on what he is rather then what he could become.

I think the main issue here is your thread title. It's confrontational and that is the mindset people will have entering the thread. If it was less so you probably wouldn't have to keep explaining it.

Also if you're who are looking to judge him based on what he is i.e. an analysis of his performances, then why do we need this thread when there is a performance one?

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

I think the main issue here is your thread title. It's confrontational and that is the mindset people will have entering the thread. If it was less so you probably wouldn't have to keep explaining it.

Also if you're who are looking to judge him based on what he is i.e. an analysis of his performances, then why do we need this thread when there is a performance one?

you have asked a fair question. The thread was started after the lost final. I came to the realization (subjective/opinion) that Rashford is a talented player with class statistics in the last two seasons but with a lacking ‘killer mentality’ to become world class. That is fine, it helps with judging a player based on what they are rather then what the fanbase expects them to become.

Is the thread title confrontational? Could be, but I’m making sure that I atleast keep these conversations civil and with argumentation rather then emotion(s).

 

[JB7]

Well since only Fernandes has contributed more goals and assists than Rashford we'll be looking for a lot of new players if there's a minimum requirement.

Stop being so sensible for fecks sake.

 

[wolvored]

He has apparently been playing with an injury all season so the priority should be for him to get that sorted, even if he misses the start of the season. In fact he shouldnt have been in the England squad imo, he should have been having the op. It makes you wonder how serious it is, or the priorities of him and the people around him, including Utd, if this is a injury that has been hampering him.

 

[anant]

Criteria got skewed in recent times with all the tactical tweaks with invernet wingers etc. Then the wingers themselves have different functions, some are more defensively instructed.

I think 25-30 g/a in all comps for the more defensive one.

40 g/a (30 g 10 a.) In all comps for Rashford.

Is Salah world class? KdB? peak Hazard? Let's push it up a bit. Neymar?

How many times have they had 40 G+A seasons (after excluding pens)?

 

[bosnian_red]

Rooney became an all time topscorer for United for having more ‘spread out’ statitsics consisting of two 30+ goal seasons, two 20+ goal seasons, two 19+ goal seasons, two 18+ goal seasons. My point here is that in 13 seasons Rooney only had 1 season where he didn’t score a minimum of 15 goals a season. 253 goals in 559 were goals more ‘spread our’ rather then (where I agree with you) consecutive back to back 20+ goals a season.

Another poster said double figures and that is fine for a talented winger.

the positive here is that more posters seem to understand that this is NOT a bashing thread, but a civil thread formulating a realistic profile of Rashford and judging him based on what he is rather then what he could become.

it holds value to have statistics, surely they can be interpret in different ways, however I do think you’d agree that there should be objective criteria to judge any player ?

The thread itself I hate because of the title, it's way too aggressive and it's very obvious why Rashford is rated as an excellent player. He goes through some injury problems and people shit on him which annoys me. Can just be moved to the normal rashford thread.

In terms of criteria to judge players, it really depends on position. If we have a 4-2-3-1 next season with Cavani central, Rashford and Sancho on the wings and Bruno as a 10, then the main goalscorers are Rashford and Cavani (or Greenwood). They're the ones who the chances will fall to. Bruno can easily get 10-15 non-penalty goals in all competitions, Sancho the same, but it's not as big of a deal as long as they provide the rest of what they do. I don't even care much about what any of the players behind them pop up with in terms of goals, they shouldn't really have goal targets, but of course you still expect everyone to pitch in with a few over the season. Sancho and Bruno will rack up the assists, or even if they don't, they'll provide loads of benefit to the build up play and just being a general threat. It's not like Giggs was never much of a goalscorer, yet he was a brilliant fixture on the left for the best part of 2 decades.

Each player and their role has multiple ways to be worthy of a spot... If Rashford comes back and plays like how he finished the season, then of course he won't stay in the starting 11 endlessly. But if he plays like he did in the first half of the season, or in 19/20, then he'll be seen as a top class player who can put in world class performances and can be relied on in big games. Thankfully, now we'll finally have an even threat on both flanks and excellent depth to be able to rest/rotate players if they have knocks or lose form. So once Rashford comes back from his surgery this summer and gets fit, I have no doubt that he'll have a great season and this thread will be long forgotten.

 

[Hammondo]

Except he’s only behind them when injured, as he had been majority of the year.

Why was he taken then?

 

[Canagel]

Sure, but instead of taking a competent penalty, he decides to Pogba it into the post!! No need for the stupid exaggerated, staggered run up, its a shoot out, just blast it! I would go as far to say his miss, messed with the rest of the pens after, and ultimately, lost England the game.

There were players that ran normally and still missed. I have never rated him highly as a player in general and believe he is overrated but there was nothing wrong with his run up. He was the only player that completely fooled the keeper , it seems like he miskicked the ball and didn't get the right accuracy which is a separate thing and quite unusual because shooting dead balls is usually a strength of his

 

[Mr.Ridiculous__]

The mods of this website are clowns to allow a thread with that title in this forum.
You all are clowns to keep the thread going.

 

[Withnail]

you have asked a fair question. The thread was started after the lost final. I came to the realization (subjective/opinion) that Rashford is a talented player with class statistics in the last two seasons but with a lacking ‘killer mentality’ to become world class. That is fine, it helps with judging a player based on what they are rather then what the fanbase expects them to become.

Is the thread title confrontational? Could be, but I’m making sure that I atleast keep these conversations civil and with argumentation rather then emotion(s).

Fair enough but yes the thread title is confrontational.

I wouldn't be making any conclusions whatsoever after last season. He clearly wasn't himself and hasn't been firing on all cylinders since the back injury. Carrying two other injuries hasn't helped for obvious reasons. This mentality stuff I find strange. People are always trying to psycho-analyse players presumably for most from a position of ignorance.

I think it was you earlier who said time wouldn't turn a good player into a WC one but look at Salah or RVP. What were they doing at 23?

Once he's had the surgery and he's fully fit I think we'll see a different player.

 

[anant]

it depends how we define ‘good’. If we take a look at the goals in the Premier league, Rashford had his best tally in the 19-20 season with 17 goals. The other 5 seasons have been 11 max.

this also boils down to the question what do we actually expect Rashford to be? Many agree that he isn’t a traditional striker. Left winger? That would be the position he should focus on, no?

the overall theme of this thread is that Rashford is indeed a talented player, but he will enter his 7th season and we are still discussing what his best position is. I’m of the opinion that he lacks that ‘killer mentality’ to become world class.

does every player need to become world class? If they can, why not?

can every talented player become world class? Absolutely not.

What are the numbers a WC winger should be producing every season? Non Penalty goals + Assists?

I genuinely think people haven't compared his numbers against even present day Salah, KdB and the likes. The only reason why he isn't considered WC is because we haven't won anything for the last few years and he is sort of getting overshadowed by Bruno

 

[Trophy Room]

It's bloody obvious that he's carrying a lot of emotional baggage. He can't perform to his maximum with all that. Needs to switch off completely and recover mentally and physically.

 

[JJ12]

Why was he taken then?

I totally agree - shouldn’t have gone

He hadn’t performed for us and as a result his confidence was shot. He needed the summer to get healthy.

 

[Tomuś]

Is Salah world class? KdB? peak Hazard? Let's push it up a bit. Neymar?

How many times have they had 40 G+A seasons (after excluding pens)?

How is it connected to my criteria of my ideal United team and what I expect from a winger in this system where the striker may not bethe main goalgetter?