Film Star Wars: Episode VIII

[Mr Smith]

Something that should be addressed :-

Spoiler

From Empire Strikes Back, as Luke is leaving Dagobah to save Leia and Han, Obi-Wan as a force ghost says to Luke, "If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere."
From TLJ, Yoda, also as a force ghost, like Obi-Wan, manages to interfere in the physical world by causing lightning to strike the Jedi tree.
I've checked the lore, novels, Reddit, everywhere and can't find any mythology or history that documents the possibility of material interference in ghost form. That Yoda does this is jarring in as far as original trilogy faithfulness is concerned.

Interesting pick-up. Here's how I felt about it.

Spoiler

Personally I have always felt the force ghosts were just a manifestation of the force itself in a form that our characters will recognise. When we see Obi-Wan or Yoda as a ghost, it's the Force literally communicating to our protagonist through a persona. We're told a few times that these characters have become "one with the force" when they die, and I always took that fairly literally.
So when we get to Yoda striking the tree with lightning, I took that to mean lightning struck the tree because at that particular moment, that was the will of the Force. Yoda appears to do it because Yoda literally is the force now; they're one and the same. I'd even argue Luke takes it this way; after the tree burns he says "So it is time for the Jedi to end then", as though he takes it that the tree burning is the force trying to tell him something.

This may all simply be my headcannon, but I go back to the fact that those characters are said to become one with the force when they die.

tl;dr Yoda, as a force ghost, literally is a manifestation of the force. As such, Yoda didn't so much strike the tree with lightning as the force did.

 

[Siorac]

So I just got back from watching it a second time, and I think its a very good movie. First time I came out I wasn't sure, and I recommend seeing it twice to anyone else who felt the same. It doesn't get everything right, it certainly has problems, but the highly compelling core characters carry it through.

I disagree fundamentally with everyone who argues they don't do Luke justice in this movie, but I acknowledge that I may see Luke differently to others. I also think Rey and Kylo Ren (particularly Kylo Ren) are the best things about this movie. I loved where they took the Force and how this movie subverted what we think we know about it. I also loved the interrogation of what heroism truly means.

I certainly have issues. The "against all odds ragtag rebellion" trope is played out for me, but you could argue the Force Awakens forces this movie to play that up. I'm also a little frustrated with the underutilisation of secondary characters, and especially one or two fakeouts that I felt were cheap thrills. Ultimately though, they're minor nitpicks.

I get why some hardcore fans will struggle with this, but as a hardcore fan myself, I'm a fan of what this movie brought, and I think it sets up episode 9 for a movie even fresher than this one was. I think this movie has great depth, and I really like the character work. Ultimately, people want different things from movies, and I understand how people could go into this movie with particular expectations and be left very frustrated.

I agree with this. I am a hardcore Star Wars fan and I had fun. Sure, I could spend a lot of time picking out plot holes or inconsistencies but I could do the same with the OT. Star Wars always required a pretty generous amount of suspension of disbelief, nothing new there.

It was fun, it was entertaining, it had space battles, it had Force mysticism, we got the ESB Yoda back after the boring and insufferable prequel Yoda... I got more than I expected.

 

[Siorac]

Well to be fair he did that himself with the prequels.

Let's not forget about his nonsensical alterations to the originals. Generations will grow up ignorant to the fact that Darth Vader did not always scream 'NOOOO' in a cringeworthy fashion at the end of Return of the Jedi.

 

[Neelu]

Just got back from watching it and I liked it. Its got a fair share of cringe inducing moments (the whole casino sequence was a complete waste of time) but it did get a lot right as well.

Spoiler

Admiral hodor ripping through at light speed was neat. All the luke, leia and kylo stuff.

Overall a decent film and definitely not a copy of empire.

 

[Siorac]

Just got back from watching it and I liked it. Its got a fair share of cringe inducing moments (the whole casino sequence was a complete waste of time) but it did get a lot right as well.

Spoiler

Admiral hodor ripping through at light speed was neat. All the luke, leia and kylo stuff.

Overall a decent film and definitely not a copy of empire.

Admiral Hodor

 

[Massive Spanner]

Yeah I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I'm not a massive Star Wars fan and I quite liked TWA too (though this is much better imo).

My 2 main problems were

Spoiler

I still think Gleeson's character is awful, a real caricature that makes him look like a shit actor, which he certainly isn't

and

The Rose & Finn side plot felt a bit pointless and distracting, it seemed to only be there so that Finn actually had something to do in the film.

Big props to Ridley and Driver who imo were both far better than in TWA and stole the show.

 

[arthurka]

I liked Luke in the film but after seeing the quotes from Mark Hamill himself on his characters portrayal I'm inclined to agree. It's not a big problem at all but I can see where he was coming from.

Spoiler

I'm also glad I'm not the only who found Snoke a terrible character. I'm glad he was killed off.

He was. It's why I liked Kyle Katarn so much - he followed his own path.

In The Empire Strikes Back, when Obi-Wan said that, I always took it as him entrusting Luke as the hero. Like, he could've if he wanted, but he didn't want to because if he had to then all of Luke's training would've meant less. He's the hero now so it's up to him. Or am I way off on that one?

No you are not. Failure is the best teacher.

 

[Zarlak]

Yeah I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I'm not a massive Star Wars fan and I quite liked TWA too (though this is much better imo).

My 2 main problems were

Spoiler

I still think Gleeson's character is awful, a real caricature that makes him look like a shit actor, which he certainly isn't

and

The Rose & Finn side plot felt a bit pointless and distracting, it seemed to only be there so that Finn actually had something to do in the film.

Big props to Ridley and Driver who imo were both far better than in TWA and stole the show.

What do you think that film is called?

 

[Donaldo]

The Whores Awaken

 

[Zarlak]

I agree with this. I am a hardcore Star Wars fan and I had fun. Sure, I could spend a lot of time picking out plot holes or inconsistencies but I could do the same with the OT. Star Wars always required a pretty generous amount of suspension of disbelief, nothing new there.

It was fun, it was entertaining, it had space battles, it had Force mysticism, we got the ESB Yoda back after the boring and insufferable prequel Yoda... I got more than I expected.

The OT Yoda was boring as hell.

 

[Massive Spanner]

What do you think that film is called?

The Whores Awaken

Yeah that one. Love a good Star Wars porno tribute.

 

[Zarlak]

Yeah that one. Love a good Star Wars porno tribute.

"The force is strrrrrrrrrong in you"

 

[Siorac]

The OT Yoda was boring as hell.

I disagree.

 

[Zarlak]

I disagree.

Supposed to be one of the greatest Jedi masters ever and the film portrayed him as a joke. Wise cracking grandad who can barely move or talk without having an athsma attack. There was absolutely nothing in those films to back up the notion that he was any kind of legitimate threat to anyone on the dark side. He was just an even older Mr Miyagi that didn't do anything of note. Yes the prequels were a joke of a trilogy, but at least they presented Yoda as somebody credible for his reputation.

 

[2 man midfield]

Supposed to be one of the greatest Jedi masters ever and the film portrayed him as a joke. Wise cracking grandad who can barely move or talk without having an athsma attack. There was absolutely nothing in those films to back up the notion that he was any kind of legitimate threat to anyone on the dark side. He was just an even older Mr Miyagi that didn't do anything of note. Yes the prequels were a joke of a trilogy, but at least they presented Yoda as somebody credible for his reputation.

That was the point though. Yoda's character was designed that way to show us that the force is something beyond the physical. We had a pre-conceived notion of a great warrior being someone big and intimidating. As did Luke, which is why he dismisses him when they first meet. It teaches him not to be so judgemental and it shows him and us that the force transcends "this crude matter". As soon as it's revealed to Luke and the audience that this thing is actually Yoda, he becomes more serious. I think they got him spot on in Empire.

 

[Zarlak]

That was the point though. Yoda's character was designed that way to show us that the force is something beyond the physical. We had a pre-conceived notion of a great warrior being someone big and intimidating. As did Luke, which is why he dismisses him when they first meet. It teaches him not to be so judgemental and it shows him and us that the force transcends "this crude matter". As soon as it's revealed to Luke and the audience that this thing is actually Yoda, he becomes more serious. I think they got him spot on in Empire.

I agree with all of that, but he still needed to be able to handle himself against sith lords, because they were scared of him for good reason. The original films showed us nothing of that. He was a mix of Mr Miyagi and Millhouse from The Simpsons.

 

[2 man midfield]

I agree with all of that, but he still needed to be able to handle himself against sith lords, because they were scared of him for good reason. The original films showed us nothing of that. He was a mix of Mr Miyagi and Millhouse from The Simpsons.

I don't think we needed to see it really, it wasn't necessary imo. In the original films it wasn't all about fighting and lightsabers, even if they did go back on that in the prequels. Luke didn't train with a lightsaber with Obi-Wan or Yoda, it was all about the force. Therefore Yoda didn't need one. They portrayed the emperor the same way, he didn't have one either. He was supposed to be the most powerful thing in the galaxy along with Yoda, and neither of them had lightsabers. It was all about the force, which sucks because George Lucas felt the need to give them one each and have them fight in the newer films. The fact this trampled over what we'd seen in the originals is one of my main nitpicks with the prequels.

 

[ADJUDICATOR]

Yoda was even more boring in the prequels, to be fair. Always ponderous and wary but no levity. He has one moment where he chuckles to himself about the brilliance of children's minds when they point out some stupidly obvious thing.

His fight with Dooku was just terrible and sure he matched a weaker? Sidious but never really had him overwhelmed like Windu did. They even cut out the part with him communing with force-spirit Qui-Gon which would have at least given him something more special than only being able to absorb the lightning.

 

[Zarlak]

Yoda was even more boring in the prequels, to be fair. Always ponderous and wary but no levity. He has one moment where he chuckles to himself about the brilliance of children's minds when they point out some stupidly obvious thing.

His fight with Dooku was just terrible and sure he matched a weaker? Sidious but never really had him overwhelmed like Windu did. They even cut out the part with him communing with force-spirit Qui-Gon which would have at least given him something more special than only being able to absorb the lightning.

Windu never had Sidious overwhelmed, it was all a ploy for Anakin to witness. He flips from 'too weak help me Anakin' to 'unlimited power' on a whim. The fight with Dooku was ridiculous, but the rest of the prequels did a decent job of showing him to be wise, thoughtful, held in great esteem by his peers while still retaining the humour and compassion. In the original trilogy he was just Millhouse to Luke's Bart. A wise cracking grandad that taught him how to do hand stands and who had one moment where he lifted the xwing out of the swamp and then died.

 

[Siorac]

Windu never had Sidious overwhelmed, it was all a ploy for Anakin to witness. He flips from 'too weak help me Anakin' to 'unlimited power' on a whim. The fight with Dooku was ridiculous, but the rest of the prequels did a decent job of showing him to be wise, thoughtful, held in great esteem by his peers while still retaining the humour and compassion. In the original trilogy he was just Millhouse to Luke's Bart. A wise cracking grandad that taught him how to do hand stands and who had one moment where he lifted the xwing out of the swamp and then died.

He was a boring, ponderous bureaucrat in the prequels. Except when he was flipping about ridiculously.

 

[Zarlak]

He was a boring, ponderous bureaucrat in the prequels. Except when he was flipping about ridiculously.

Fair enough, agree to disagree. IMO he was a frail old Millhouse cracking dad jokes in the original trilogy. Except for that one moment where he did something with the force and then died. I'd like to see a well done origin story. The way he was presented in those films, if I were Luke I'd think he was a crazy old fool making the whole story about being a jedi master up. Like the drunk in the pub who tells you he used to be a millionaire and had a yacht.

 

[ADJUDICATOR]

Windu never had Sidious overwhelmed, it was all a ploy for Anakin to witness. He flips from 'too weak help me Anakin' to 'unlimited power' on a whim.

That makes sense, but didn't Anakin tell Padme that Obi-Wan was 'as wise as Yoda' and 'as powerful as Windu'? Would suggest that Windu was a more prominent duelist at the time.

 

[Zarlak]

That makes sense, but didn't Anakin tell Padme that Obi-Wan was 'as wise as Yoda' and 'as powerful as Windu'? Would suggest that Windu was a more prominent duelist at the time.

Absolutely, Windu is in the canon one of, if not the best duelist in the galaxy but he didn't overwhelm Sidious as it was shown in the prequels. Anakin needed to see what Sidious was trying to show him, that the Jedi were taking over and were evil etc to warp his perspective. Sidious could always have used his lightning when he was disarmed but he held back and made it look like he was feeble and weak and defenceless in need of Anakin's help knowing there wouldn't be any way back for him once he intervened and to commit him to turning to the dark side.

 

[luke511]

I thought it was excellent, Mark Hamill being the highlight. Much better than TFA.

Spoiler

My only problem was Snoke getting killed as soon as he did, was very curious what his backstory was.

 

[2 man midfield]

I thought it was excellent, Mark Hamill being the highlight. Much better than TFA.

Spoiler

My only problem was Snoke getting killed as soon as he did, was very curious what his backstory was.

Spoiler

He'll be back, with robot legs or some shit. Probably.

 

[Mr Smith]

I thought it was excellent, Mark Hamill being the highlight. Much better than TFA.

Spoiler

My only problem was Snoke getting killed as soon as he did, was very curious what his backstory was.

Spoiler

I can understand some people's frustration with Snoke, and how quickly he was killed off (I personally think it was necessary, as he should never have been there in the first place and would have hamstrung the rest of the story if he'd stuck around). On the other hand, I'm glad he wasn't given a backstory, because it means we can make it up for ourselves. For instance, the crackpot theory that Snoke is Plagueis now works perfectly as headcanon. I can now believe that theory is true, whether it actually is or not, without interfering with the movie canon at all. All that is by way of saying, because they didn't give Snoke a backstory, you can make it up yourself. He can be anyone you want, from anywhere you want. Too often we seek an explanation, when imagining the truth ourselves is actually much more fun.

 

[squiggle]

The problem is a lot of these channels operate entirely within the geeky pop culture zeitgeist, and are set up specifically too cater to it, so there's not even a pretence of objectivity. That's why RLM can skewer them so well. Them & MovieBob review other movies, from other genres, which MrSM doesn't. That's why he doesn't make the cut.

RLM and Jenny Nicholson (who was very critical of Rogue One, but loves TLJ) are the two YouTube channels I watch repeatedly but I think RLM's Nerd Crew has run its course. The first three or so were excellent but the later ones are just repeating the joke and I start to think 'well... you're also waiting for the latest blockbuster to talk about it'. And that's fine but it's not as if they're reviewing Greta Gerwig or Jean-Luc Godard.

 

[2 man midfield]

Nerd Crew didn't need to be any longer than a one-off. It's like, we get it. The only thing I do like is that with each episode the desk keeps filling up with more merch

 

[Lastwolf]

I liked the movie, it's super easy to pick apart as there are gaping inconsistencies in logic and pointless scenes, but they are cool so you kinda have to give it a pass.

Spoiler

The Rebels are low on fuel, the First order are not, why didn't they just lightspeed 1-2 ships ahead of the Rebels and head them off. Both the times, the dreadnought and snoke's ship, the other ships are in the background and causally ignore helping in anyway.

 

[Bilbo]

So I just got back from watching it a second time, and I think its a very good movie. First time I came out I wasn't sure, and I recommend seeing it twice to anyone else who felt the same.

Agree with this. Whilst watching it I felt that there was a lot going on and it was very long.

Those types of movies always need a second watch before you can really settle on whether it's actually any good.

 

[Untied]

This movie was a bit of a train wreck, that almost entirely derailed the positive foundations that The Force Awakens laid. It was a bit like LVG’s second season, really.

This.

I’m more disappointed the more I think about it.

The way I’d put it is: TFA was a great starter. It wasn’t as good as any of the original trilogy. But it was a great reboot (given where the prequels had gone) and felt like it had set things up for a hugely satisfying main course.

And then TLJ goes out of its way to undo or ignore TFA’s setups. There’s some reallly good stuff in this film, but overall I found it hugely underwhelming because it didn’t satisfyingly build upon TFA.

 

[Bilbo]

Yeah I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I'm not a massive Star Wars fan and I quite liked TWA too (though this is much better imo).

My 2 main problems were

Spoiler

I still think Gleeson's character is awful, a real caricature that makes him look like a shit actor, which he certainly isn't

and

The Rose & Finn side plot felt a bit pointless and distracting, it seemed to only be there so that Finn actually had something to do in the film.

Big props to Ridley and Driver who imo were both far better than in TWA and stole the show.

Totally agree about Gleeson. He is so OTT angry in every single scene I fully expect that he and the entire crew burst out laughing every time they cut.

 

[luke511]

Spoiler

I can understand some people's frustration with Snoke, and how quickly he was killed off (I personally think it was necessary, as he should never have been there in the first place and would have hamstrung the rest of the story if he'd stuck around). On the other hand, I'm glad he wasn't given a backstory, because it means we can make it up for ourselves. For instance, the crackpot theory that Snoke is Plagueis now works perfectly as headcanon. I can now believe that theory is true, whether it actually is or not, without interfering with the movie canon at all. All that is by way of saying, because they didn't give Snoke a backstory, you can make it up yourself. He can be anyone you want, from anywhere you want. Too often we seek an explanation, when imagining the truth ourselves is actually much more fun.

Spoiler

Yeah I agree, if he'd have made it to the third film and a similar thing would've happened, everyone would've been calling it predictable so it had to happen really.

 

[Lastwolf]

Parts of the movie had me wondering if the script was written by one of disneys animated movie script writers (Frozen maybe) and some of the scenes had me wondering whether the director had been drafted in from Hannah Montana.

The general plot of the movie isnt bad, but when its mixed with that disney magic (marketing) it becomes a bit tedious.

Im sure Im not the only one that cringed at the attempts at comic humour, especially beteween Kylo Ren and the general. Just not what you expect.

I hope Lucas is regretting selling the franchise to disney. They will ruin the legacy of these movies if the next one is the same.

Its Star Wars.. Not Guardians of the Galaxy!

These movies are nowhere near as bad as the three prequels, which George made, he tapped out a long time ago.

 

[Zarlak]

I thought it was excellent, Mark Hamill being the highlight. Much better than TFA.

Spoiler

My only problem was Snoke getting killed as soon as he did, was very curious what his backstory was.

I have no idea why I clicked that, when I'm going to see the film tonight.

 

[luke511]

I have no idea why I clicked that, when I'm going to see the film tonight.

Just lol'ed at work reading that, my bad.

 

[Zarlak]

Just lol'ed at work reading that, my bad.

Not your fault, why on Earth I'm opening spoilers I have no idea.

 

[MoBeats]

Not your fault, why on Earth I'm opening spoilers I have no idea.

feel for you

 

[Ubik]

Spoiler

That scene with Rey in the pit, with the Rey-timeline or whatever it's being called...what was that all about? I loved it visually (that and the Star Destroyer being ripped in hyperspace were fantastic in that respect) and it had a nice riff on Empire with the conclusion, but still not really sure what was happening. That she's responsible for who she is, rather than some nobodies that happened to be her parents?

Don't click on the above Zarlak.

 

[Zarlak]

Ffs, I clicked reply to do a "" and it loaded the entire message. I saw the words Star Destroyer and managed to close it.