Can’t even begin to imagine the level of nerd required to notice/care about shit like that. And that’s coming from someone who’s always thought of himself as a nerd.
Film Star Wars: Episode VIII
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Someone noticed. Someone worked long and hard, and they noticed.
So yeah, in hindsight this film is quite rubbish:
- If The Order could only track the rebels through light speed via the main ship, why not just all split up, then The Order can only follow one ship?
- How come the idea of being tracked through light speed went from "impossible" to everyone understanding everything about it, within about 2 minutes? I thought it was going to be because there was a traitor on board the rebel ships or something...but no it's just that they're all a bit thick.
- Why did that weird woman in charge of the rebels not tell anyone what her plan was until the very last second? Why not just say "yeah, we're going to pretend to run away until we get near enough to this planet here, then we can all sneak off and escape"...this is the thing with a plan. You kind of have to tell people what it is, otherwise nothing will happen.
- Why didn't she tell Po what the plan was at least? This would have avoided the need for Po to come up with his own plan, which ended up getting nearly everyone killed.
- They spoke to Maz who told them there was only one code breaker in the whole entire universe who could help them, then they went to find him, and got arrested, and thrown in jail, and there just happened to be another completely different person, in the same jail, on the same planet, at the exact same time, who could help them. Is the explanation for this "yes but the force", because if so, feck off.
- I don't care about some weird fictional animals on some weird fictional planet being badly treated, that are literally only in the film so we can see them being badly treated and then escaping. In fact, the whole venture on the weird Poker planet just seemed like a way to make the film a bit longer, which would be ok if the fil didn't end up being much too long.
- when the space battle ends and The Order's fleet is cut in half and Smoke/Snoke/Snake is dead, should be when the film ends. This is a natural ending point to the film. It's a bit surprising, it's a climax. It leaves everything still open for the final film. It also feels so much like the end of a film that the 40 minutes or so of near constant nonsense afterwards just kind of feels like watching a really aggravated end credits scene.
- I don't even remember what happens after this. They hatch a plan to send for help, then no help comes, then they hatch another plan to fight, then Fin sacrifices himself, then he doesn't, then the boring woman sacrifices herself, then Fin saves her, then Rae turns up to save the day, then some other things happen, then Luke turns up to save the day, then he doesn't, then he battles Ren, then some other things happen. I was constantly waiting for the bit where it ends, instead more stuff happens in this last scene than in the entire rest of the film. I mean there were entire sections of this film where NOTHING HAPPENS...there's an entire section that is just the film following Luke about, farming space cows, going to the toilet and stuff, yet you then have to cram an entire film worth of stuff into one scene at the end?
- I still don't get how everyone can understand droid language. How do you learn it? Is it a universal language? Can people speak it, or do they just sit there listening to droids until they figure out what they're saying? Why not just have them speak English?
- How come the idea of being tracked through light speed went from "impossible" to everyone understanding everything about it, within about 2 minutes? I thought it was going to be because there was a traitor on board the rebel ships or something...but no it's just that they're all a bit thick.
- Why did that weird woman in charge of the rebels not tell anyone what her plan was until the very last second? Why not just say "yeah, we're going to pretend to run away until we get near enough to this planet here, then we can all sneak off and escape"...this is the thing with a plan. You kind of have to tell people what it is, otherwise nothing will happen.
- Why didn't she tell Po what the plan was at least? This would have avoided the need for Po to come up with his own plan, which ended up getting nearly everyone killed.
- They spoke to Maz who told them there was only one code breaker in the whole entire universe who could help them, then they went to find him, and got arrested, and thrown in jail, and there just happened to be another completely different person, in the same jail, on the same planet, at the exact same time, who could help them. Is the explanation for this "yes but the force", because if so, feck off.
- I don't care about some weird fictional animals on some weird fictional planet being badly treated, that are literally only in the film so we can see them being badly treated and then escaping. In fact, the whole venture on the weird Poker planet just seemed like a way to make the film a bit longer, which would be ok if the fil didn't end up being much too long.
- when the space battle ends and The Order's fleet is cut in half and Smoke/Snoke/Snake is dead, should be when the film ends. This is a natural ending point to the film. It's a bit surprising, it's a climax. It leaves everything still open for the final film. It also feels so much like the end of a film that the 40 minutes or so of near constant nonsense afterwards just kind of feels like watching a really aggravated end credits scene.
- I don't even remember what happens after this. They hatch a plan to send for help, then no help comes, then they hatch another plan to fight, then Fin sacrifices himself, then he doesn't, then the boring woman sacrifices herself, then Fin saves her, then Rae turns up to save the day, then some other things happen, then Luke turns up to save the day, then he doesn't, then he battles Ren, then some other things happen. I was constantly waiting for the bit where it ends, instead more stuff happens in this last scene than in the entire rest of the film. I mean there were entire sections of this film where NOTHING HAPPENS...there's an entire section that is just the film following Luke about, farming space cows, going to the toilet and stuff, yet you then have to cram an entire film worth of stuff into one scene at the end?
- I still don't get how everyone can understand droid language. How do you learn it? Is it a universal language? Can people speak it, or do they just sit there listening to droids until they figure out what they're saying? Why not just have them speak English?
I've only seen the film once.
- Wasn't the point of the film that they didn't have the fuel to make many jumps? I guess in theory the smaller ships could have just jumped to different parts of the galaxy but I'm not sure if they had enough fuel to do that? Alternatively, they didn't want to surrender their flagship given it had all of the leaders of the resistance on board.
- My guess is they didn't want 20-30mins of the film be devoted to "well how did they track us!?!"
- The General had been telling people, just not the low ranked officers on board. That's kind of how it works in the Navy/Military. Need to know information.
- She didn't tell Po because he was demoted and he was an ass.
- Wasn't the point that he wasn't very good? He got them on board but they were caught, so mission failed.
- Poker Planet was a bit shit, I think they were going with the whole "different shades of grey" approach and highlighting how people were making profit from the war. I.E. People are cnuts.
- I'd have hated it if they ended it their. They destroyed part of the fleet, cool. But they were still in a terribly fecked position with no ships left except transports. Prefer the current ending but not the whole 'Luke using the force to project himself weird shit'.
- I guess you weren't paying attention at the end as you weren't enjoying the film.
- Droid language is a weird one. I guess its something everyone understands as everyone seems to understand what R2 says throughout the entire saga. No idea why they don't speak English.
Irritatingly, the original comment was deleted.
Anyway, I don't think it's controversial to say that the film had a lot that was aimed at the audience itself. Especially the parts with Yoda and Luke talking abut changing the jedi and old ways and the Kylo/Rey dialogues about breaking the conflict felt to me like they were aimed directly at fans. Now I was disappointed that after pointing out how repetitive Star Wars is and pointing out that they can go in a different direction, the film by the end gets back to the old ways good vs evil and most damningly and symbolically the Jedi book gets back to Rey in her ship.
That guy was saying that the "return to normalcy" thing was itself intentional - they set up the possibility of deviation and then stopped it. I don't know if I agree but I know others have made the point - I think one of the Redlettermedia videos (probably Rich talking about TFA) basically said that Star Wars, despite being set in a universe of infinite possibilities, cannot go beyond blue v red good v evil lightsabers, tormtroopers, funny droids, tough-but-nice sidekicks, etc. That the basic story outline and characters will not change because the pressure from fans and from the commercial side would be too much.
I know very little of the full lore, or the community so I couldn't really comment on that side of things, also I don't dispute the film may be in part talking to its audience but a bad story and a bad film is bad no matter which way the meta of it is painted, it's not like a situation where it is so bad it's good (The Room springs to mind) it's just bad! Equally if the film was saying the story is bad to the audience then it's pretty patronizing!
@noodlehair
Whatever about your other points, real-life people in charge of armies wouldn't really think to lay out vital, need-to-know plans to every single person in the army, would they? Seems a bit unnececesary given soldiers are trained to promptly carry out orders without discussion.
As for just telling Poe, he had literally just been demoted hours beforehand for being reckless and stupid. Again, not really someone a real-life person would tell anything to, I'd have thought.
Whatever about your other points, real-life people in charge of armies wouldn't really think to lay out vital, need-to-know plans to every single person in the army, would they? Seems a bit unnececesary given soldiers are trained to promptly carry out orders without discussion.
As for just telling Poe, he had literally just been demoted hours beforehand for being reckless and stupid. Again, not really someone a real-life person would tell anything to, I'd have thought.
I mean, they made Luke into a tragic hero and people lost their absolute shit, so you can understand the reticence. I'm hoping the new Rian Johnson stuff moves into new territory, assuming it still gets made.
Doesn't help that when he is filled in on the plan he immediately blabs it to a guy who was a stormtrooper like 2 days ago and their not very trustworthy hacker friend. Kind of justifies not telling the moron.
If it's a choice between telling the soldiers, or letting them all believe you are deliberately leading them to their death, I reckon anyone with an ounce of common sense might tell them that there is a plan.
What if she thought there was a traitor on the ship?
Then it really wouldn't make much difference since at some point she has to tell everyone what the plan is, for it to actually happen.
There really is no way around accepting what a dumb piece of plot this was, I'm afraid.
I just watched it again, it looks glorious in 4k HDR. I enjoyed it both in the cinema and when rewatching it. The Luke bits were great and it did a lot of things I felt the franchise needed.
However it has some huge problems. Those problems mostly being Rey, Finn and Rose. Most of the new characters just aren't very good. Poe is the only one that had any real character development in this film. Finn had his in the last one and really had no place in this, he felt completely shoehorned in. I do not understand the point of Rose in the story at all, I understand more cynical reasons she might be in the film. Not sure cynical is the word I'm looking for. A huge chunk of the film being dedicated to two characters that feel superfluous in a side story that really goes nowhere, where they take out another pointless character is just a complete waste of time in an already overly long film.
Rey is a complete Mary Sue, I don't understand anyone who can argue against this. Even when Yoda turns up he says that there's nothing in the Jedi books Luke had been keeping that Rey didn't already have. She had barely been trained, yet didn't need the books or anyone to guide her. She just had all the powers, skills, piloting ability, ability to understand both droid and wookie and anything else she requires. She is completely virtuous and has no flaws at all. None of this is in line with her background as a scavenger. She's boring and is ruining the story unless they somehow fix her character in episode 9. I really don't care to watch her just turning up and besting the villains with skills/abilities she hasn't earned, but fear that's what's coming. Also how did she end up inheriting the Falcon and get Chewie as her apparent underling? Why's he taking orders from her?
I don't get the complaints about Holdo not telling Poe her plan. Why would she? He just got demoted for insubordination and was openly undermining her authority by questioning her. She had no reason at all to tell him or appear weak by letting him make demands of her.
As a stand alone film, I enjoyed most of it, but it's not left me excited for the next episode, mostly due to the characters still alive I don't give much of a feck about. Except Chewie and he's now just Ray's bitch.
However it has some huge problems. Those problems mostly being Rey, Finn and Rose. Most of the new characters just aren't very good. Poe is the only one that had any real character development in this film. Finn had his in the last one and really had no place in this, he felt completely shoehorned in. I do not understand the point of Rose in the story at all, I understand more cynical reasons she might be in the film. Not sure cynical is the word I'm looking for. A huge chunk of the film being dedicated to two characters that feel superfluous in a side story that really goes nowhere, where they take out another pointless character is just a complete waste of time in an already overly long film.
Rey is a complete Mary Sue, I don't understand anyone who can argue against this. Even when Yoda turns up he says that there's nothing in the Jedi books Luke had been keeping that Rey didn't already have. She had barely been trained, yet didn't need the books or anyone to guide her. She just had all the powers, skills, piloting ability, ability to understand both droid and wookie and anything else she requires. She is completely virtuous and has no flaws at all. None of this is in line with her background as a scavenger. She's boring and is ruining the story unless they somehow fix her character in episode 9. I really don't care to watch her just turning up and besting the villains with skills/abilities she hasn't earned, but fear that's what's coming. Also how did she end up inheriting the Falcon and get Chewie as her apparent underling? Why's he taking orders from her?
I don't get the complaints about Holdo not telling Poe her plan. Why would she? He just got demoted for insubordination and was openly undermining her authority by questioning her. She had no reason at all to tell him or appear weak by letting him make demands of her.
As a stand alone film, I enjoyed most of it, but it's not left me excited for the next episode, mostly due to the characters still alive I don't give much of a feck about. Except Chewie and he's now just Ray's bitch.
He's just wumming Luke, she'd already nabbed them. And the point of her nabbing them is to refute Ben/Ren's idea of killing the past.
Good point, I'd forgotten she'd taken them then.
Interesting that the Carrie Fisher footage will be from Seven. I cannot imagine even the cuntiest of fans not giving them slack for how this is handled.
Tricky. As much as I loved Episode 8, and I really, really did, the set up doesn't feel like an open goal. I've no idea where they go next. I'm assuming, as Seven and Eight were set over the same couple of weeks, that Nine will take a leap forward.
I love the Rey and Kylo dynamic, but how does it resolve itself? Ren is beyond redemption, Rey won't turn now. Fascinating from a story point of view, but also a filmmaking decision.
They really can't win, but I loved Seven and Eight so I'm all in.
Tricky. As much as I loved Episode 8, and I really, really did, the set up doesn't feel like an open goal. I've no idea where they go next. I'm assuming, as Seven and Eight were set over the same couple of weeks, that Nine will take a leap forward.
I love the Rey and Kylo dynamic, but how does it resolve itself? Ren is beyond redemption, Rey won't turn now. Fascinating from a story point of view, but also a filmmaking decision.
They really can't win, but I loved Seven and Eight so I'm all in.
This thing really was a car-crash of a movie.
I thought it was wonderful.
I'm glad you liked it.
I'm sad that you didn't, but I'm sure as hell happy we can have a friendly conversation on the Internet about it.I'm glad you liked it.
Oh absolutely. I didn't hate it per say, it just didn't hit the right spots for me, and in many ways made me uninterested in the movie before it and the one after it (in the trilogy).
If others enjoy counter strike, who am I to tell them to not enjoy themselves. It would be stupid.
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Giving the middle movie of a trilogy to a different director than the other two was suicide. Rian Johnson brought zero satisfactory answers to screen that were set up in Force Awakens. The fact that the entire movie was set during a 'chase' was ridiculous. You had characters involved in this life or death chase swanning off across the universe, visiting casinos and saving animals. It was stupid. I have a little bit of hope that JJ can salvage something from this next installment, but I fear Rian has left him too much work to do.
JJ Abrams is good at setting up questions, hes pretty terrible at giving satisfactory answers to them. I wouldn't be optimistic. I'm glad they gave Rian Johnson the 2nd, hes a far better director imo. It was meant to be a different director for each film anyway.
But he made an absolute mess of TLJ. It's supposed to follow on from TFA but fails miserably, undoing a lot of the groundwork laid down by Abrams.
Well that's one opinion, many people enjoyed it though.
I swear this thread is just the same thing over and over again. We need a new Episode 9 thread.
I did when I first saw it, then I actually thought about it and realised how terrible I thought it was.
Well everyone is a cineliterate bore these days, quoting "plot holes" from YouTube videos which have passed into memes and become legends. Not one of the original trilogy films would have lived up to today's post movie autopsy, almost no film does.
I guess a lot rides on 8. In many ways it will define what came before.
I've watched it several times since I first saw it and still think it's one of the best. Not perfect but are any of them? Luke's death/triumph was a perfect climax.
I'm glad we'll see Lando in IX.
I'm glad we'll see Lando in IX.
It's lazy film making imo, and I don't think you can find anywhere near as many problems with the original films as you can with VIII. It's disappointing because I actually liked a lot about TFA, and thought that it did a decent job in setting up the new trilogy.
Maybe JJ Abrams can salvage it with Episode IX, The Last One Didn't Happen.
Empire would have been battered for the Millennium Falcon's 'pointless' voyage and Luke's failure.
I’m really not sure that this is true. Whilst pretty much anything can be victim to pedantry, the original films don’t have the fundamental structural and dramatic problems that the prequels and, to a lesser extent, TLJ are plagued by. Yes, elements are hokey, or silly or don’t stand up to forensic examination, but the beats of the original films work and that would be acknowledged.
The pointless voyage of the Falcon is filled with character development beats, as is Luke’s training, that culminate in both plot and emotional pay off.
The strange side quest of Finn in TLJ results in nothing more than a very strange lesson that noble self sacrifice is less important than love or something or other.
It's about fighting for something other than your own personal desires. He starts the film wanting to desert purely to save Rey, ends it willing to kill himself for the resistance.
Yeah, I watched it again the other day and Finns story arc was pretty interesting. I didn't like the casino at all in the cinema but 2nd viewing I can understand why it was added in and it wasn't as annoying as I remembered it being. It's just disappointing they went down the love arc with Rose and Finn which wasn't needed, they could/should have been good friends instead.
I disagree completely. I think he gave far more interesting answers than JJ Abrams (or anyone else really) would have given. JJ's mystery box is interesting until you cop that they all contain a boring predictable cliche or another mystery box. TLJ had a plot and a theme, it didn't need to trade in cheap gimmicks by making absolutely everything a big mysterious secret.
No point in arguing anyway.
Yeah I get that argument, it all felt like it had gone in a completely different direction to TFA for me though. Kind of felt like they were trying to force the jokes too much as well.
Yeah, he spent the entire movie fecking with peoples expectations. I can understand how that would annoy people but i just loved it.