What we need are the right decisions more than tough decisions. The issue is whether David "I have no idea" Moyes knows what he is doing, not so much whether he can be ruthless.
Support David Moyes thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Yet we laughed at City and Chelsea when they instantly replaced underperforming players and managers with quality, we had everything we needed to attract the worlds best but whether it was stubborness with money or admitting we got it wrong (also stubborness towards where football inflation rates and agent fees were going), it allowed are competitors to keep building and building to where we are today while we hoped our underperformers to do the business, football today is cut throat and ruthless and what worked yesterday doesnt always necessarily work in todays game, yes people said the same about scholes neville and co in 95 but fact remains we let personal relationships with academy players (Welbeck, Cleverley, O Shea, Brown and Gibson) and loyalty to loyal servants (Giggs, Carrick, Rio, Evra,) blinker us in to thinking they could/or still can do the business for us
I was trying to stay positive and support him to but losing AT HOME AGAIN to the lowest team in the league is simply unacceptable.
Off the back of a defeat we are usually scary. Not with Moyes. This team doesn't BELIEVE in him. Cut losses now and let Neville + Giggs manage the team.
Off the back of a defeat we are usually scary. Not with Moyes. This team doesn't BELIEVE in him. Cut losses now and let Neville + Giggs manage the team.
Even SAF makes mistakes,Moyes was a huge mistake.
Ok wrong word. It was our only defensive lapse up till that point and unfortunately we were punished for it. Evra and Fletcher were to blame as well for it, but Vidic was the main culprit, and he shouldn't have been playing if Jones and Evans were fit.
With our form, we were always going to struggle if we conceded first.
@Ronaldo's Mum Eh? We didn't lose by the way! But I get what you're saying.
We lost points. Bad enough.
Now that's an interesting thought regarding Moyes' successor.
I'm not convinced at all about him. The only thing I was confident of at the end of last season was that we were in for a rough ride and that the fans would turn against whoever was in charge this season.
The new TV and kit deals put CL money into context, not to mention the unrivaled marketing work done by the club recently. I'm not suggesting we should revel in our shitty fortunes this season, but that the club's magnitude allows us to avoid knee-jerk reactions given the monumental task of replacing Fergie. In my opinion, reacting to the current situation by pressing panic buttons would be shooting ourselves in the foot especially if a newly appointed manager misses on the top 4 next season too. Are we guaranteed 4th place by virtue of being Manchester United?
I don't think you fully understand how much it will cost us if (that) we missed out on CL football. First of all it'll cost us a ton of money. Second, good luck trying to re-build the squad with no CL football and with Moyes being our manager (who was the reason why we won't have CL football this season in the first place).
I'm not going to change my opinion just to score some moral points in front of the other fans. Before the season started (when many were still thinking that we're gonna challenge for the title) I thought that if we finish 4th then it's still okay for Moyes' first year. Below that is not good enough.. I wasn't a spoiled fan when the season started, and I'm not going to be a delusional fan in February either.
Below top 4 is not good enough. It wasn't when the season started, and it's not going to be now. People are changing their opinions now and we're drifting slowly (but surely) towards accepting anything but relegation now. We have a title winning squad ffs + Mata and Januzaj! The objective should be trying to make United successful, not trying to make Moyes successful.
There are no signs that things are going to change. Instead of hoping that we can build the best squad ever made in the history of football (yeah, good luck with that) so Moyes can finally finish in the top 4, just admit that we've made a mistake, suck it up, and correct what needs to be corrected. And don't kid yourself, if Fergie had this squad in 1986 he would have finished in the top 4!
Our position in the league is unacceptable, there's no doubt about that. It's only that I'm not sure how much of the blame should be carried by the players themselves? Are they fecking kids who can't play unless dad is in the dugout? If so, why would a new manager be any different? For all of last season glory few of our players would have made the first XI in the top 6 in their current form.
Woke up today and still willing to give Moyes a chance. It looks disastrous at the moment and we should be playing better though. Something needs to happen in between now and December to convince me he is the man for the job.
I've not seen enough positives yet but to pin this season on one man isn't right. We need a few wins under our belt and hopefully that will lift the confidence of the squad. David Moyes might not be the man for the job, I don't know yet. He's had the worst start I could imagine him having. I'm not for sacking him but I'm not for defending him either.
I've not seen enough positives yet but to pin this season on one man isn't right. We need a few wins under our belt and hopefully that will lift the confidence of the squad. David Moyes might not be the man for the job, I don't know yet. He's had the worst start I could imagine him having. I'm not for sacking him but I'm not for defending him either.
Wow. Just wow.
Problem is mate, if we give him until December it means giving him 100 million to spend. I think it's to big a gamble, he's shown with Mata that he doesn't know what to do with him. Last night I don't think anyone could tell what our formation was, I think at one stage Rooney was playing central midfield.
It's to if a gamble for me, far to big.
Piss off and leave me to my view. Not even going there.
You obviously don't understand the first thing about football, managing people or running a football club. Just one of the most naive posts I've ever read on here. And think about the ground that covers.
Is this a serious post?
I don't think Moyes has realised how massive a club this is. Fergie used to take training but as the club grew bigger and bigger he started to delegate responsibility to his coaches. There are so many side issues to being a United manager. However, the getting rid of SAF's staff is coming back to bite him. His own coaching staff are not good enough to be given that responsibility. They either have to get rid of Moyes and his coaches or Moyes has to be told the coaches have to go. He should have been told this from the start, that at least for a couple of seasons he had to keep Mike and Rene at the club to get him off to a good start and keep the players onside.
It's a football forum, if you don't want to discuss it, don't come on a football forum, it's that simple.
Why not talk about sacking him in the sack him thread then? We've created this to stay out of your way, get out of mine. This Moyes out is becoming a goddamn **** to which everyone must convert.
Everyone is entitled to say what they want here. Just because you love banging on about how much you hate Moyes page after page doesn't mean we have to do the same.
I'm not one of you, and I'm not going to argue why. It only ends in a vicious circle of wankers.
Well that's £6 a month they will no longer be getting off me. I have just cancelled my MUTV subscription. The girl on the phone asked me why I was cancelling and I went into a tirade on why I am not watching it at the moment apart from the depressing phone ins after games. 
The girl had a laugh about that. I will see what happens in the future and what signings are made before I decide about taking it out again. Sorry if I have reduced our transfer kitty for next season.
The girl had a laugh about that. I will see what happens in the future and what signings are made before I decide about taking it out again. Sorry if I have reduced our transfer kitty for next season.Honestly, you need to dry your eyes, it's a football forum. As you say everyone is entitled to say what they want here. You seriously need to stop being offended when people disagree with you.
I'm sorry DT but that is pathetic.Well that's £6 a month they will no longer be getting off me. I have just cancelled my MUTV subscription. The girl on the phone asked me why I was cancelling and I went into a tirade on why I am not watching it at the moment apart from the depressing phone ins after games.
United no longer entertains you so you've stopped paying to watch them.
Well done. Give yourself a massive pat on the back.
I'm sure I am not as experienced in running a football club as you are. Actually, judging by your posts I'm sure neither is Moyes.
I avoided the place yesterday. I still support the guy. When your oppositions tactics are to have all their players in the box except the striker your attacking options are limited. They closed us down on every shot, it was to dense to pass through the centre, practically all we could do was cross. I worry about 2 areas of our team and that's the defence and midfield. To many times we're getting caught out on the break and letting in sloppy goals.
No I am on a relatively low income and I got rid of a channel that I got sick of watching documentaries that I have seen over and over again. I also got rid of other things. We have to eat you know.
He has my support for as long as he's here and I really hope he manages a turn around in the coming months. There's no denying that we've been poor and getting progressively worse but I'm still optimistic that things will get better.
I wonder how many of those wanting Moyes out after 6 months were/are still aboslutely sure Nani, Anderson, Fabio and young Tom Cleverley would come good and fulfill their potential.
I have problems with him - I don't think he has grasped the way a Manchester United team is expected to play yet for instance (although I think the focus on crosses is an attempt to go back to basics to try and build some confidence) but I do still think he needs the summer and a fair crack at next season to make any real judgement.
I think the problem is exacerbated around here because large portions of the fan base have never known us have a bad season, hence the histrionics.
I think the problem is exacerbated around here because large portions of the fan base have never known us have a bad season, hence the histrionics.
Well that's a change of tone.
Maybe when we've made some more signings you'll be a little better off and won't find yourself in a position where it's MUTV over your next meal.
I'm not convinced we are getting worse (though we're obviously far from playing properly) - for me the worst performances we've put in were around October / NOvember - Stoke / Southampton at home and Cardiff away. Those were matches whihc were properly evenly balanced, and you'd be hard pushed to tell whihc was the supposedlt better club.
In all our recent matches, bar Chelsea, we've had much the better of the match - dominating posession and attacking at will. The problems now appear to be in final third at either end - turning attacking posession into goals, and defending the odd counter attack that comes our way. Which isn't great, but for me it's better than being matched across the park by mid-table teams.
MUTV don't show our matches though?
It's the same histrionics we get when we don't sign the players they want and every player someone else has signed is one we lost out on regardless of whether we were in for them in the first place.
.....luck seems to have deserted us with too many decisions not going our way, and injuries to Van Persie and Carrick ain't helped the team either.
As for Moyes hes only tactically good or dry as he was at Everton and many of these midtable British managers right from Hodgson, O'Neill, Big Sam, SCS or Keegan would resort back to pointless hoofballs, four striker formulae and crosses if they're rattled a bit, that exactly Moyes is indulging at the moment. The threat of "shite hanging on a stick" is often the case with 99% of British managers.
As for some blaming him for United's torrid run.
It was Fergie's decision to buy Ashley Young.
It was also Fergie who bought Phil Jones and Smalling, (it was exactly at the point of time, Kung fu Kenny shipped in the CHAD brigade blowing all Torres money down the gutter but atleast our rivals have picked the pieces up and got rid of all sundries)
Ofcourse by the admission of Moyes the gaffer left some fantastic feedback about Kagawa that deferred Moyes from going after Ozil, yet Fergie never ever played Kagawa in a free role behind a striker a position he can reveal.
So its unlikely of Moyes to try that out either and we're all aware Fellanis certainly twice a footballer than we've watched this season
The squad left by Fergie was unbalanced, and it takes a manager in the calibre of Fergie to take it forward yet he gave the nod to Moyes to take over from him.
Moyes for his part botched things up by constantly backing the wrong footballers ala Rooney, Young and Smalling, and making Phil Jones look thick with every passing week. Some decisions have gone horribly wrong and it would take time to have them corrected.
I am not with those brigade that always throw some nasty bile at him along with shallow personal attacks and still backing him to come good. We can all handle couple of quiet seasons as along as there is a certainly the transition is rolling on. Moyes for his part should atleast ensure hes not losing the fans, and things should improve gradually.
As for Moyes hes only tactically good or dry as he was at Everton and many of these midtable British managers right from Hodgson, O'Neill, Big Sam, SCS or Keegan would resort back to pointless hoofballs, four striker formulae and crosses if they're rattled a bit, that exactly Moyes is indulging at the moment. The threat of "shite hanging on a stick" is often the case with 99% of British managers.
As for some blaming him for United's torrid run.
It was Fergie's decision to buy Ashley Young.
It was also Fergie who bought Phil Jones and Smalling, (it was exactly at the point of time, Kung fu Kenny shipped in the CHAD brigade blowing all Torres money down the gutter but atleast our rivals have picked the pieces up and got rid of all sundries)
Ofcourse by the admission of Moyes the gaffer left some fantastic feedback about Kagawa that deferred Moyes from going after Ozil, yet Fergie never ever played Kagawa in a free role behind a striker a position he can reveal.
So its unlikely of Moyes to try that out either and we're all aware Fellanis certainly twice a footballer than we've watched this season
The squad left by Fergie was unbalanced, and it takes a manager in the calibre of Fergie to take it forward yet he gave the nod to Moyes to take over from him.
Moyes for his part botched things up by constantly backing the wrong footballers ala Rooney, Young and Smalling, and making Phil Jones look thick with every passing week. Some decisions have gone horribly wrong and it would take time to have them corrected.
I am not with those brigade that always throw some nasty bile at him along with shallow personal attacks and still backing him to come good. We can all handle couple of quiet seasons as along as there is a certainly the transition is rolling on. Moyes for his part should atleast ensure hes not losing the fans, and things should improve gradually.
Well from a neutral - for me you shouldn't be supporting Moyes. He appears out of his depth - even his body language is negative, just like his tactics.
Your players don't seem to be performing either - but isn't it up to the manager to help them do that? Playing Mata on the wing is just silly as well. I hope for your sake you make some big changes soon.
Your players don't seem to be performing either - but isn't it up to the manager to help them do that? Playing Mata on the wing is just silly as well. I hope for your sake you make some big changes soon.
He definitely needs support - he's breaking all records..!
There's every other thread to do that in though, I've debated my points in other threads without complaining. Is one thread free of "hate Moyes or you're a dick" really too much to ask?
One thread, you've claimed every other one.
To put your bullet points in to context though Young, Jones and Smalling all won stuff with Fergie so it's not all bad. I don't think Fergie was perfect in what he left Moyes, there was a lot of dead wood but he must of known it to. At the end of the day I bet you could go back to last season on this forum and people will be saying stuff about having to replace Giggs, Evra, Vidic, Rio etc. If Moyes couldn't see that with a club he was taking over then I'm sorry but it's not all Ferguson's fault, he has to take a large degree of the blame himself. IF your points are all true then again it hardly looks brilliant for Moyes. He needs to be his own man, you can't fall back on Ferguson and say "Well he said we didn't need them so I didn't bother" and then go on about how you want to do your own thing, it's one or the other. If he felt the team needed Ozil he should of bought him. It's that simple for me. He has been unlucky with the Fellaini situation and I do kind of feel sorry for him there. People won't give him a chance because of the Everton link when he isn't actually a bad footballer.
There is a lot of people responsible for what's gone on. I don't get why it seems it has to be mutually exclusive to just 1 person or group (Fergie, Moyes, Charlton or the players it seems.) My view on it is Fergie probably should of improved but then in his defense he won a league with that team and easily as well so has a counter argument to people suggesting the squad is poor, it's not nearly as bad as it's doing now. A lot of the players are under performing. The only ones who are consistently playing well in my opinion is de Gea, Rooney and Januzaj. The rest are either out of form or not interested. That creates a problem for Moyes to address as if you lose a changing room you're in trouble which looks like from the outside in it's happening.
Moyes does have to take a degree of the blame though and unfortunately for him the one constant that has changed at that team is him. With the exception of Fellaini every player in that squad won something last season so they have that to fall back in. Moyes doesn't really so it will always look worse for him. I did support him but the Fulham game made me feel a bit uneasy, I don't know if it's worthwhile sacking him now as we won't do anything either way but then if we just delay the problem it slows us down even more long term. The risk of giving him another transfer window is that if it doesn't pick up someone else isl eft stuck with his squad for a full season.
Without complaint? You complain every time someone disagrees with you
All I said was it's a gamble to let him stay on until Xmas, and you took offence. I'll happily have a debate with anyone on a football forum, even if they view things differently to me, maybe you should do the same.
Cardiff and Swansea both dominated possession at OT and against Cardiff we struggled to create anything. We had 67% possession against Stoke at OT in October in that game you brought up as an example.
Basically, it's been one step forward, two steps back all season long.
That's bullshit, I agree to disagree or at least try to most of the time. I've complained about being disagreed with 3 times in the whole time I've been on this forum, recently, due to not having the same laid-back attitude I normally have, due to factors not related to United or the forum. I've debated quite happily most of the time.Without complaint? You complain every time someone disagrees with you
At the moment my personal life has gone to shit, and is a disaster at the moment even worse than you see Moyes' tenure, so yes, I have been a bit petulant and unlike myself.
No, what you did and are doing is removing all element of discussion by having it be "Either you love moyes or you hate him". I've said quite a few times that I'm far from a Moyes lover but yet still wish to give him time to see. You're taking that as "Moyes is the messiah and I hope he stays here forever" which is completely inaccurate and not the point I'm bringing forward, which is why I'm refusing to build a defense as I'd be defending something that I don't believe.
I suggest the following; If you want Moyes out that's absoutely fine, there's a thread for you that I promise to stay out of, and hopefully more will do so too.
For the people still willing to support Moyes we have this thread right here.
I propose that the monster debate on Moyes is handled in the "Moyes so far" thread, which I will be debating in later when work calms down a bit, this means there are three threads about Moyes, one supporting him, one supporting getting rid of him and the Moyes so far to be the no-holds barred preach and convert thread. This way at least the cyclical arguments can stop in two of the threads. It's getting beyond ridiculous at the moment with anti-moyes/pro-moyes arguments happening in pretty much every single thread in the FF. Sure it's a place to discuss everything, but the way it's going at the moment why not just delete all the threads and have one megathread so that everyone has to talk about the same thing, with the same viewpoint.
I'm all for fair discussion but none of this has been fair from either side of the debate. It's possible to support Moyes without thinking he's the greatest thing that's happened to us.
If you want a healthy debate then I'll see you in there later, in this thread though I'm just pledging my support for him whilst he's still manager of Manchester United. The board decide when he should go, not me.