I've seen her perform live twice and she sounded closer to the recording than any other artist I've heard perform. Not sure where that notion comes from that she can't sing live.
Music Taylor Swift
- Thread starter ha_rooney
- Start date
Taylor Swift stans.
Even i would vote for Tay
Her record breaking attendance concerts are big part why people regard Taylor Swift that high, right?
Depends on what you mean. If we are talking about how big she is, absolutely, it confirms she is the biggest star since MJ basically. If we are talking about holding her in high regard, it doesn't really matter. Everyone has their opinion, but there's obviously a lot of people that thinks she's good.
Hardly debatable though is it? Not even a dig at Taylor but artistically she can't get close to Lana. She won't care though with all that success she has. For whatever reason that is.
That’s such a lazy argument to apply to any art form. Popularity and quality aren’t interchangeable. A lot of the best, most important and influential art will never be very popular and a lot of much more popular art has been extremely poor quality. That applies across the board. From fine art, to movies, to music. Just look at the highest grossing films of the last couple of decades. So much objectively terrible shite.
And you of course are the one to judge what is and isn’t quality?
Yeah, me and only me. For all art forms. Seeing as I am the world leading expert on every art form known to man.
Although even lesser mortals have a pretty good handle on what is and isn’t shite. You don’t need to be a film critic to realise that the vast majority of Marvel movies are terrible, despite being very popular.
I don’t even like Taylor Swift and couldn’t name five of her songs but to deny that she is one of the biggest pop stars of all time (that’s what we’re debating, right?) is stupidly stubborn at this point.
The point Pogue is making really shouldn't be up for debate. If something has mass appeal it usually means it's bland or inoffensive or pandering to the lowest common denominator in some way.
Now you're just blatantly stealing lines from the Hipster Bible itself
The very definition of pop music is mass appeal and all that entails. But you're twisting the point into some 14yr old, liked them before they sold out nonsense which is disingenuous.
It's weird to see things like "definition of pop music or things that are popular etc" as if it's some black or white thing which is why it reeks of people who have a disdain of anything just because it is popular and that's obviously a super dumb way to decide what you should like or not. There's no definition and no such thing that only bland and inoffensive or whatever can be popular. Depends on who you are talking about.
The original point was that being popular isn't a sign of quality as was claimed.
It's not just because it's popular that I don't like it. I like plenty of things that are also popular, but probably not as popular as Taylor Swift. I don't like it because I find it to be bland music that does nothing for me. That type of stuff also tends to sell.
Yeah exactly. A bunch of things are super popular and also super great.
There are various definitions of pop music and pop culture.
This is a conversation that a always get people defensive and replying by calling people snobs, hipsters etc.
Think of soap operas v theatre. Soap operas are huge, have a massive commercial value and consistent huge audiences. Most theatre only exists with arts Council grants, but it's better on every level.
Analogy aside, Taylor Swift is increasingly moving towards being an actual soap opera.
She has actual musical talent, but at her level so do lots of people.
I have worked most of my life in the music industry and I could praise her all day long for various things.
Pogue's Marvel movie comparison is apt. Compared to the endless stream of shite that I could watch with my kids when they were 12, Marvel was a blessing. Taylor is Marvel, hugely successful, slick as hell but formulaic and ultimately artistically quite unimaginative.
The difference between your post and previous one is this has actual examples over saying "all popular stuff is usually bland etc" (cleared it up later so all good) which is a stance I'd like to distance myself from.
Yeah, exactly. And I almost find it arrogant to try and claim all opinions are equal and if I like something then you can’t say it isn’t good. There’s a load of great art that doesn’t align with my personal tastes and I’m fond of movies and music (can I mention The Frames here?!) that I would never claim to be objectively great. It’s ok to have low brow tastes. Just don’t try and pretend what you like is better than it really is just because lots of other people also like it.
Taylor Swift couldn't make her music without technology to help her pump out tunes. Classical composers are where it's at. Wake me up when they still play her music 250 years from now.
Oh please. Beethoven didn’t even sing live.
She seems like a nice enough person but her music seems like just utterly bland nasaly meh pop like Ed Sheeran or Beyonce.
Yeah but they made movies about him. Adorable dog.Oh please. Beethoven didn’t even sing live.
Of course its mainstream music but she is not that bad: lots of variation and craft in her music.
Completely tone deaf. No way is he in the running for GOAT.Oh please. Beethoven didn’t even sing live.
Exactly you cannot judge how talented someone is based on how much they sell.
The Monkees at their peak were selling more than the Beatles and the stones put together and that was when the Beatles had released the sergeant peppers albums.
Michael Jackson while very talented gets mentioned a lot as the pinnacle to reach but when you face facts Prince had more talent in his little finger.
Taylor is extremely popular has been for a time which says more about the people buying into it than anything she does.
Of course she will be remembered for a time and all power to her but you would have to be very biased to say she is the greatest around or even close to it.
Lana Del Rey who has been mentioned here is clearly more talented but Taylor is still bigger and media will concentrate on her.
As for Kanye there are loads of polls on reddit calling him the greatest rapper of all time. So many people regularly posting he is better than Kendrick and Nas which is mind blowing to me.
Maybe at the end of the day what really matters is how deranged your fanbase is
what
id have understood if it was for a producer but rapper? SuuuureAnd I wouldn’t exactly use Lana del Rey as an example for a musician who is oh so different to Taylor Swift. They are very much of the same type and pretty much all criticism that is being brought up against Swift’s music very much fits that of Lana del Rey.
If we are talking about popular female musicians, I’d rather use singers like Aimee Mann as an example. But surely not Lana del Rey, who for every Swift song about an ex boyfriend, releases one of her own songs, projecting her daddy issues on her tall, tattooed and coked up boyfriends.
Which I actually like. But let’s not pretend that she is some sort of ultra creative, avant-gard renegade without mass appeal, compared to Taylor Swift.
I mean, they actually have the same (sadly absolutely horrible) producer.
If we are talking about popular female musicians, I’d rather use singers like Aimee Mann as an example. But surely not Lana del Rey, who for every Swift song about an ex boyfriend, releases one of her own songs, projecting her daddy issues on her tall, tattooed and coked up boyfriends.
Which I actually like. But let’s not pretend that she is some sort of ultra creative, avant-gard renegade without mass appeal, compared to Taylor Swift.
I mean, they actually have the same (sadly absolutely horrible) producer.
Popularity in a nutshell right there!
It might be a lazy argument, but it's also the truth. I won't ever be able to convince you that her music is good, and you me the other way around. Another thing that's true is that global pop stars like Taylor usually don't have a very long shelf life at the top. Taylor, for example, emerged at the same time as the trio Rihanna, Katy Perry and Lady Gaga. Perry and Gaga managed about five at the top before fading and Rihanna a bit longer (I know she hasn't made any music for a while, but she had already started to fade a bit with Anti). The same was true for Britney and now lately Ed Sheeran (who's star has faded quite a bit over the past years), and I'm sure there's a number of other pop artists that this applies to. Then one can ask oneself why Taylor has managed to stay on top for so long now? Clearly there's something people keeps coming back to over and over. And when that happens it's hard to say it hasn't anything to do with quality, because generally people doesn't come back over and over for things that lacks quality. So there's that.
Rhianna, Ed Sheeran, Katy Perry and Britney. Truly great artists blessed with musical genius, of course.
No one has claimed that, or that Taylor is either. You're clearly deliberately missing the point here.
Being honest here mate, you're really coming off as a bit snobbish here.
Without googling:
Love story
We are never ever getting back together
Shake it off
Roar
At least that is what people say
Unapologetically so if someone brings up formulaic dross like that up when trying to make a point about quality music. Feckin hellBeing honest here mate, you're really coming off as a bit snobbish here.
There can be a third option other than being super amazing and utter dross where they'd likely fall.Unapologetically so if someone brings up formulaic dross like that up when trying to make a point about quality music. Feckin hell
I’d like to bring you back to my MCU analogy…
You mean MCU whose latest film is one of the buggest flops in cinematic history? MCU has clearly faded a lot since the pandemic (No Way Home aside, which was succesfull for other reasons). So MCU pretty much works as an example for me as well.