It is what I see that I can still say that I am on Solskjaer side. And as long as I see progress I’m on his side. We are playing better than 12 months ago. We are improving players. We are trying to shift old, expensive players and trying to build for future. Not 5 years forward. I fully expect next year to be better with few additions. The club is not toxic anymore and it seems we are trying to get back to our roots.
The “Ole In” Brigade
- Thread starter Lentwood
- Start date
@Regulus Arcturus Black It's better to give Ole the rest of the season at least. People talk like we're dangling in 12th place when we're 5th. Even though 5th shouldn't be where we aim for, it is very befitting of this current squad. Sacking Ole right now will be very reactive and they are alot of reasonable 'excuses' I can give him.
The first thing I want to ask is what your expectations are really from this current squad. First place? Fourth place? Because mine is sixth place. We're not better than City Liverpool and Leceister(yes leceister) clearly. Our squad is not better than Chelsea or Tottenham either. In hindsight it will sound ridiculous that we're not better than some of them but please take time to compare our squad to those 5 teams I mentioned and their bench and you will see what I'm talking about.
Also what kind of style of play do you honestly expect with this squad asides from counter attack majorly. We have Jesse fecking Lingard as our AM, Mcctominay and Fred as our CMs, two defensive full backs and three pacy forwards. What exactly do you expect these set of players with their abilities majorly akin to counter to produce other than majorly counter attacks
We also play more sides in the team that park the bus rather than attack. And no matter how much space an attacker creates against such teams it will hardly be exploited without a creative midfielder. Van Persie said he counted about 12 runs Rashford made against Arsenal but nobody could pick him out. I've seen Martial raising his hand when he's free but Lingard has no vision to see him. Pogba has been injured and therefore we have not one single creative player in the team. All the top 6 sides have 1 or more. We have had none through out the season.
Another excuse is the fact that we have a young squad. There's really nothing I can say here other than young players are bound to be inconsistent. In some matches we look like we're out for blood and in the next we look very unmotivated. Compare Rashford against Tottenham to Rashford against Arsenal. There is are hardly any leaders in this team.
My last excuse is our injuries. Pogba is out with and there is no creativity in the team. We saw what he could do when he came on for a few minutes. Martial was out for a while and we couldn't score more than a goal through out that period. It changed when he came back. Mcctominay is injured now, a vital player in this team. We also have lack any quality squad depth that can make any kind of impact whatsoever asides from an 18 year old.
There is a great imbalance in this squad and Ole right now has us at 5th considering all the excuses I gave him. Sacking right now will just be reactionary. He deserves at least the end of the season then we can evaluate if he has shown signs that he is the one that can take us forward or whether our future would be better in the hands of another manager. However If we give consistent results and performances like the Arsenal game I'm certain most will be Ole out and will be sacked
The first thing I want to ask is what your expectations are really from this current squad. First place? Fourth place? Because mine is sixth place. We're not better than City Liverpool and Leceister(yes leceister) clearly. Our squad is not better than Chelsea or Tottenham either. In hindsight it will sound ridiculous that we're not better than some of them but please take time to compare our squad to those 5 teams I mentioned and their bench and you will see what I'm talking about.
Also what kind of style of play do you honestly expect with this squad asides from counter attack majorly. We have Jesse fecking Lingard as our AM, Mcctominay and Fred as our CMs, two defensive full backs and three pacy forwards. What exactly do you expect these set of players with their abilities majorly akin to counter to produce other than majorly counter attacks
We also play more sides in the team that park the bus rather than attack. And no matter how much space an attacker creates against such teams it will hardly be exploited without a creative midfielder. Van Persie said he counted about 12 runs Rashford made against Arsenal but nobody could pick him out. I've seen Martial raising his hand when he's free but Lingard has no vision to see him. Pogba has been injured and therefore we have not one single creative player in the team. All the top 6 sides have 1 or more. We have had none through out the season.
Another excuse is the fact that we have a young squad. There's really nothing I can say here other than young players are bound to be inconsistent. In some matches we look like we're out for blood and in the next we look very unmotivated. Compare Rashford against Tottenham to Rashford against Arsenal. There is are hardly any leaders in this team.
My last excuse is our injuries. Pogba is out with and there is no creativity in the team. We saw what he could do when he came on for a few minutes. Martial was out for a while and we couldn't score more than a goal through out that period. It changed when he came back. Mcctominay is injured now, a vital player in this team. We also have lack any quality squad depth that can make any kind of impact whatsoever asides from an 18 year old.
There is a great imbalance in this squad and Ole right now has us at 5th considering all the excuses I gave him. Sacking right now will just be reactionary. He deserves at least the end of the season then we can evaluate if he has shown signs that he is the one that can take us forward or whether our future would be better in the hands of another manager. However If we give consistent results and performances like the Arsenal game I'm certain most will be Ole out and will be sacked
He was between a rock and a hard place. If he had chosen to improve midfield the same conversation would be had about him neglecting our defence.
Yeah and we only saw one season of a true LVG team forming. Instead of trying to find a system to fit in RVP, Rooney,Falcao and DiMaria. He never got the chance to improve upon things as due to Jose being available and a pretty rampant fan base he was fired after the Fa cup win and finishing 5th on goal difference.No I'm not, I've mentioned plenty other reasons besides points, but league position is very important.
it's funny that you use Liverpool under Klopp as an example when they've improved their results, performances, league position etc. every year under him, the exact opposite of lvG
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Injuries happen to all teams, if your entire season is pinned on one guy being fit I wouldn't call that "unfortunate" at all.
"naive" "neglectful" "gross negligence" are more fitting.
And the biggest budget if I remember correctly. Ole's a huge draw in Norway of course, you're bang on there.
I'm wrong about an actual fact? That's a new one
Is our squad the 2nd most expensive in the league or is it not?
Playing the dumb card again? How else do you judge a manager if not from their past achievements in the leagues they have managed? It appears your only defence for Ole being better than them is that he's currently 5th, with the 2nd most expensive squad in the league. Is Brendon Rodgers a better manager than Pep Guardiola then in your eyes because he's currently above him? If Ole finishes the season in 6th and above Everton, is he suddenly better than Ancelotti?
The very idea that being 5th with the 2nd most expensive squad somehow makes Ole a better manager than say "Eddie Howe" is one of the dumbest things I've read.
You asked which manager's are better than Ole, I gave you a massive list and the only way to judge managers is on how they have fared in the best leagues they have managed in.
All of these managers you're arguing about including Ole have managed in the Championship and done a miles better job than Ole did there.
So once again, I'll ask you to provide me with information and facts on how Ole is better than any of these guys? If you can't give me any facts and actual evidence of what Ole has achieved so far in his managerial career that is better than these guys then guess what? You're wrong.
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He got fired in the Championship after having an entire Summer to make a PL side good enough to compete in the Championship and bounce straight back. He failed absolutely miserably.
Ole has us in 5th in a year in which the bar for 5th at this point is lower than ever, with the 2nd most expensive squad in the league. And giving Ole the excuse that they aren't his players is nonsense, he clearly loves DDG, AWB, Lindelöf, Maguire, McTom, Fred, Martial, Rashford and James (9 of his starting 11) and has most of these guys most weeks. He has engineered his squad to rely on these 9 guys.
My expectations for this squad is that it should at very least challenge for top 4. Nothing more, nothing less. I've said myself now isn't the time to fire Ole, it was after the Watford game but we didn't and actually our form on the whole in the past 6 weeks has been "acceptable" so we absolutely shouldn't sack him now.
If we end up in 7th or 8th again before Jan or 10 points from 4th, I think we should seriously consider it though, because for all of the excuses you gave him above, I feel the opposite, it was naive at best and gross negligence at worst to do what he has done with transfers since taking the reigns. Why do you not hold him accountable for that? It's great to do a rebuild but the most important thing is to remain competitive and not be completely fecked if one or two players get injured, Ole and the management team have only themselves to blame for authorising so many outgoings and only really strengthening in defence where the squad was ram packed with players.
And for my part here, I'm done. @Forevergiggs1 my patience has ran out with the debate. Hopefully we'll have an amazing Jan-May and I'll be proven completely wrong about Ole, I'd love nothing more, although I fear the gross negligence with the squad will bite us in the arse worse than ever now McTom and Pogba are ruled out.
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Yes. The made up one is stupider. Getting rid of failed managers in search of the right one is the logical way to do it despite the 'manager change grief' previous fans face and take to heart like sensitive little souls.
You think Ole is average /below average but still want him as our manager? You do realise were not Brighton right?
Very good points made here.
Needless to say I strongly disagree. LvG didn't deserve his 3rd season and only went one way, backwards. We never would've seen this lovely hypothetical improvement you speak of.
You're tiptoeing around the point here. Transfer money is not infinite. We add extra creativity, great, so what area should we not have invested in?
I'm not tiptoeing around. I like Maguire a lot, AWB does many things well but I'm not convinced spunking 55m on him was smart.
If we didn't have the money, signing people in the area of the team we were most stocked was terrible planning.
Not really. I had commented on the quality of Leicester's back 5 before Rodgers.
If Rodgers gets all the credit for those players then it can equally be said that Solskjaer has improved the value of Rashford, Martial, Fred, McTominay, Lindelof, James and others.
And you also thought Milner and Henderson were 2 of the best midfielders in Europe before Klopp. I know.
You'd have been sanctioned at the start of 2017-18 if you claimed Leicester had a better squad than us. Only thing that has changed since then is our manager decided to gut our squad and Leicester decided to bring in a good progressive manager.
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Embarrassing pressers lately, starrmting to develop a disliking of him.
Our defence was shit. The vast majority of fans accepted we needed to improve this area as a priority.
No, the vast majority said midfield was priority.
But I don't give a feck about the vast majority, proof is in the pudding and we obviously made shit decisions in the Summer if the only creative outlet we're left with is Paul Pogba ffs, we're paying for it now. The "vast majority" on the caf doesn't get paid millions to manage one of the World's biggest clubs.
CM was a way way way more pressing need.
It sounds like I had a higher opinion of them than you but you are obviously a better judge than I am. They are perfect players for Klopps system.
I don't think Leicester have a better squad than us even now. What they have is a better first XI which they get on the pitch most weeks.
He has gutted the squad which should be beneficial long term IF we fill the gaps with the right signings and the young players develop well. If you can't see past the short term then yes it was a poor decision (if it was his decision).
I don’t see the standard this season as being any more shocking than most of the last 6 seasons. Particularly when you bear in mind the average age of the first XIs and the fact our best player has missed almost the entire season
Unfortunately, because we’ve been poorly run for nearly a decade, we’re probably not currently attractive to the very best young players in Europe but that’s not concerning me right now. You don’t need XI superstars or XI wonderkids to establish a title challenge or even win trophies.
What we need now is a solid foundation to build on. We need a squad of at least 16 good quality, young, hungry players with the right attitudes and who are committed to the club. Once we have that and are regularly finishing top four, it makes us very attractive to special players like Sancho again
Aside from LVG first year and Mourinho's second, none of the seasons have been remotely good enough.
And average age means absolutely nothing if the lads don't become top class. If many drift off and become nothing more than squad players or Newcastle players, why is that something to be proud of? It's such a strange Manchester United phenomenon this, every single manger should just play young lads here, it'll win you all the time in the World.
Should Ole really be lauded for going into the season with Andreas as his AM option for example? Because he's young?
I don't think any manager should look past the short term, it's too important these days and too costly.
I think standards, and feck me I'm talking low ones, like challenging for top 4 must be maintained even during periods of rebuilding (note: challenging, not "making"). If a manager isn't capable of challenging for top 4 and rebuilding, he's got absolutely no right to be here.
You say it should be beneficial long term but what is that based on? A level of trust and blind faith? Because as I said previously, I can absolutely see Longstaff and Rice being two future signings, maybe even Grealish and I can't see that being "beneficial" at all with regards to catching Liverpool, City and Chelsea who will be buying "big" players again after their ban. I can absolutely see us on the evidence so far cementing our place as a 5th placed team by gutting the squad and bringing in "honest lads". Can you not see that in May 2021 that's how our side might look?
DDG
AWB Lindelöf Maguire Williams
Rice Longstaff
Grealish
James/Greenwood Rashford
Martial
I can, I think that's absolutely the way we are going and I think it's a terrifying future ahead for any United fan if we continue down this route. Most terrifying of all is that fans like wummy probably cum in their pants looking at the line up above.
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Re Andreas: the last few coaches haven’t seen anything special in him. Even at Valencia he was outshone by Soler so I Don’t see why we persevere with him.
If he came on as sub with the game won or start against Astana, I’d not have a problem. It’s him as a first choice that shows the lack of quality in the squad. Him keeping out Garner and Levitt dismays Me too
Slightly off topic but has a Norweigian manager ever won a trophy in one of the big 5 countries?
Spain, Italy, England, Germany or France??
But hell, most weeks he's keeps the average age down so ignore that he stinks out the place and use the average age as something to be proud of.
Worrying indeed. Still hasnt gutted the squad enough though. Jones Rojo Young Matic Lingard neef to go and Sanchez and Smalling will be back
Might want to read back on that. There was as many wanting us to sort out our defence as any other. The truth is we needed a centre back, a right back, a midfielder, a striker, and a right winger, with arguably further additions on top of that. I said it then and it still rings true now. Regardless of what positions Ole chose to fill in the transfer window he would've had this exact same reaction. People would be moaning that we are still playing Jones at centreback and how any idiot could see we needed a CB. Or that he's mental for still relying on Young at RB. He decided to not invest in the area where he had genuine class and improve in an area where we don't and that's backfired. That happens at every level in football, from Fergie neglecting his midfield for half a decade to Pep spending £50mil on a CB only to play a 34 year old CM there.
Yes, the proof is in the pudding, so wouldn't it be nice to actually let a manager get that far instead of trying the bake after 10 minutes and then complaining it's underdone?
How does he keep the average age down when the alternatives are younger than him...
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How does he keep the keep the average age down when the alternatives are younger than him...
Mata and Lingard aren't younger mert.
And I'm sorry ivaldo, but I'm really not interested in getting into another debate about how stupid this Summer window was. Andreas, Mata, Lingard were deemed acceptable enough whilst the back 4 (Smalling, Young etc) wasn't.
Me personally, I'd have either Smalling or Young (or Williams or Dalot) playing and a decent number 10 instead of watching Andreas or Lingard stink the place out every week.
Like I say though, I'm not a top manager but I'd have bought AWB and Maguire and still made sure that the club brought in someone to play that role (Bruno) before agreeing to let Lukaku leave.
I'll leave it there, I think this season has proven how fecking stupid our Summer was, beyond any reasonable doubt. You obviously disagree dispite the results, performances and win rate.
https://www.transfermarkt.us/molde-...87/plus/0?saison_id=2010&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=
https://www.transfermarkt.us/molde-...87/plus/0?saison_id=2011&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=
His first season at Molde was most impressive, where he won them their first title in club history. He made two major signings: Davy Angan from a newly promoted club, this guy turned out to be amazing and scored a ton of goals for them. The other dude is a defender from a midtable club who ended up suffering a serious injury and subsequently retiring. He also signed a bunch of kids. Second season his one big signing was from another newly promoted club and a bunch of kids, all but one are under 23. Hardly big names to be fair, I mean yes he did spend some money while he was there, but the pattern i'm seeing is that he has a decent eye for talent, has a preference for young players, and coached them to play attacking football to win the league twice and break the Rosenborg dominance.
I've done this to death now mate.
But 13 months is not 10 minutes, and did you read this post? Is that not the cake we appear to be baking? Also, have I said anywhere here these last pages that Ole should get the sack now? Or have I said the exact opposite?
No, none of them were deemed acceptable, which is why none of them can hold down a regular place. Sorry mate but there's absolutely no chance he could have replaced every single issue we have, and there are a lot, in a single window. None. That's an unreasonable standard. We could have used the DNA of Fergie and Busby and created a super manager in the labs and still Fersby would be faced with similar issues. Ole picked his poison and it was always going to be the wrong one.
And if you were in charge right now you'd have a plethora of threads about how foolish you are for deeming 34 year old Young acceptable, and how any clown could see after 9 years at the club that non-league Smalling wasn't good enough. You really think the criticisms would be any different?
It doesn’t seem strange to me. It’s about stability, longevity and forward planning. Whether these lads go on to become “generational” superstars is by-the-by. The fact is, if we can fill a sizeable portion of the squad with homegrown players at the right age that means we can focus our spending on the real key areas.
There is also something to be said about being committed to the club. It’s not just romanticism. Who was the better player for United? Rooney or Ronaldo? Scholes or Ronaldo? Giggs or Ronaldo? Not saying Ronaldo wasn’t committed in every game but ultimately he left and played his peak years elsewhere. A large portion of our success was down to have a squad of players committed to being here for long periods
Young and Smalling helped us to 2nd not long ago. Andreas and Lingard will lead us to 5th or 6th, big difference.
If we were doing better, with say:
AWB, Smalling, Lindelöf, Shaw
McTom Fred (Pogba)
Ziyech (or any good #10)
James Martial Rashford
McTom Fred (Pogba)
Ziyech (or any good #10)
James Martial Rashford
Yes the criticisms would be different. Our Summer was shite, keep believing it wasn't, but this season shows it was, you said yourself that we have zero creativity when Pogba aint playing, and yet wasn't Ziyech available for very little money in the Summer?
Would we not have been better balanced with the side above?
And 13 months and 1 window is not long enough, not after 5 years of abject disappointment, an overpaid and aging squad signed under 4 different managers.
No it isn't, not even close. Just what are we basing that on?
A large portion of our success once down to a once in a lifetime group of players from 92.