Gaming The Best Gamer on Redcafe

[ThehatchetMan]

You are trying to turn this into a debate about something I'm not talking about. But, if you did want to go there, on input skill alone, I could lecture you on the code behind AA techniques and why all the top games feck with the settings all the time and why cross-platform isn't ideal (speaking on that, we could talk the latest Halo too) and all that if you really want? Bearing in mind I grew up on controller and can still play it to this day, you don't understand my point. I'm not arguing one over the other, I'm simply saying this:

You clearly underestimate why so many "pros" go over to PC as controller players. And why both those, and those left behind, still make money in tournaments. The cheating that goes on is WAY bigger than you think, the fact you claim it isn't as "common" as I think shows you don't actually grasp that. You also shouldn't underestimate how easy it is to cheat on console, but also how little the big tournies wont admit it goes on and they cannot stop it.

But in a simple question of "controller vs mouse" like you think I'm talking about, it takes an incredible amount of skill to master both (and that's purely on aim, we aren't talking about game sense and all that). However, m/kb does have the higher skill ceiling because there's techniques and accuracy levels it's impossible to reach with your thumbs. Hence why AA is needed in the first place. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Sorry if I've misinterpreted what you're saying.

I think you've got a terribly cynical view of things if I'm honest. When I was involved in esports around 2010 people got pcs because of a bigger game library and to play games they couldn't on console.
The call of duty esports scene was non existent on pc aside from a few search and destroy tournaments. The games weren't cross platform then either. There was no motivation to go to pc to cheat. It was to play games you can't on console mostly.

Now maybe things have somehow changed drastically in recent years. I don't agree with your views that cheating is rife and I've put alot of hours into gaming. Ive also both organised and competed in many cod lam events and online tournaments and again this cheating thing really was a non issue around 2010. Again maybe things have drastically changed but in my experience cheating was generally more of a pc issue and in my thousands of hours on ps it's barely impacted me.

Agree with final paragraph.

 

[swooshboy]

I'm the best to play online games with because I'll log on half smashed and then get progressively more drunk as the session goes on. Just ask the GTAV and FIFA lads how great it was back in the day.

I can vouch for that!

Sadly we have both become aware at how our skills have eroded over time!! Sniper Elite 5 bears witness to that!

But back in the GTA days - different gravy!

 

[Stobzilla]

I once got to the maximum level and score on Columns for the Genesis. I always used to warm up for FIFA online by playing a classic round on that and one day I just didn't stop

 

[Stobzilla]

And also: I was the best driver on RedCaf GTA. These scumbags are wankers though and wouldn't know an honest race if it bit them.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

They're designed to be casual games from the outset, and also to appeal to people who struggle with traditional shooters. Character abilities are never balanced and only get worse as more characters/abilities get added. With Overwatch high level games are just boring slogs, who wins is usually decided by which team sync up their ults better. And a big problem with hero shooters is how poorly they translate to spectating and casting in esports events.

Even Valorant, which was designed to be the competitive non-respawn hero shooter equal to CS, is an omnishambles. It's a graveyard for failed American CS players, propped up by Tencent money. For some reason China has fallen in love with hero shooters much like they fell in love with, and then ruined, PUBG.

Could this same argument not be applied to L0L or DOTA? OK they're not shooters. But your arguments for character abilities and balancing could be applied the same? Similarly team sync and ults can have a huge impact in those games too. I don't really spectate overwatch as an esports so can't comment on the spectacle.

Personally I stand by the thought that OW problem was the team size more. If it was built as a 4v4 or 5v5 from the off then I think it would have taken off more. 6v6 was just too large.

I think alot of your argument applies more to Apex Legends because in my eyes that is alot less balanced as a hero shooter. I think overwatch is ace though. And I know I'm a bias fan boy here.

The problem with Overwatch is that having a very bad player on your team has a larger impact than a very good player. Smurfing isn't as easy as it is on other shooter gamers were it's very easy to carry a game. Don't get me wrong you can smurf against the worst very easily but a player in masters won't carry a gold player as easily as they would in other games. And for me this is another sign of why it's such a good game because team comp and communication is so vitally important.

And lastly alot of other shooters have perks, items, guns etc you choose which are often very unbalanced. Cod4 was all about the ak47, m16, mp5 and ak74u along with the sniper. The rest of the guns were rarely used.
Whereas in Overwatch Zarya was a beast a few seasons back and now isn't so good. Hamster however has had a buff and is now a wrecking force when before he could have been seen as a troll pick.

I think we may have to agree to disagree though here. And I am a fan boy so yeh.

Not really played or looked at valorent so can't really comment on it.

 

[mitChley]

Mouse and keyboard only I think I'd stand a chance. Was playing in Unreal Tournament clan tournaments back in 2002-2005 and we managed to crack top10 in Europe. But that was going on 20 years ago and I'm not as good as I was then....
Against controllers players I don't know, the modern controller player who knows how to maximise the aim assist on something like Call of Duty can probably beat me more than 50% of the time.

 

[hobbers]

Could this same argument not be applied to L0L or DOTA? OK they're not shooters. But your arguments for character abilities and balancing could be applied the same? Similarly team sync and ults can have a huge impact in those games too. I don't really spectate overwatch as an esports so can't comment on the spectacle.

Yeah definitely, applies to them as well, and same as with Overwatch/PUBG all the money in those games as esports comes from China. Basically any game China champions as an esport is a sure sign it isnt competitive.

One thing you can say for DOTA is that it's more watchable than the hero shooters because it's a slower paced game and you can follow what's going on.

 

[Bosws87]

Happy to take on @Redlambs on any competitive shooter and see if he can walk the walk!

he can sure talk a good game.

 

[Stactix]

Yeah definitely, applies to them as well, and same as with Overwatch/PUBG all the money in those games as esports comes from China. Basically any game China champions as an esport is a sure sign it isnt competitive.

One thing you can say for DOTA is that it's more watchable than the hero shooters because it's a slower paced game and you can follow what's going on.

Not sure I'm getting where you're coming from in terms of competitiveness?

League was pretty big for an esport in its day, not so sure if it still is as I haven't touched it in years but I'm sure it used to the biggest for some time in terms of crowds watching/people watching the stream etc.

 

[Bosws87]

Can’t tell a skill ceiling on a game without putting some time into it.

The macro level league reaches if you are seriously into it, while not as in depth at DOTA. Still requires many techniques from wave management, dragon control and so on.

If anything COD is far less skill needed then a game like Overwatch, as there’s knowing all the abilities when there up and so much more.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

Can’t tell a skill ceiling on a game without putting some time into it.

The macro level league reaches if you are seriously into it, while not as in depth at DOTA. Still requires many techniques from wave management, dragon control and so on.

If anything COD is far less skill needed then a game like Overwatch, as there’s knowing all the abilities when there up and so much more.

I can conclude from this response that you and I must be the two best gamers on redcafe.

Wonder if we will get a new tagline to show off our accolades.

 

[KirkDuyt]

After bragging here I platinumed SIFU, I noticed it had "Arenas" now. That shit is hard.

 

[Simbo]

I completed Dark Souls with no online guides, spells or ranged attacks. More self-abuse, rather than achievement.

 

[shamans]

Gtf0. Try and play a shooter without aim assist using analogue sticks and see how you get on. This is the sort of comment I expect from a pc gamer that struggles to accept that they're a noob.



Fifa/Pes doesn't get you credit for playing competitively. It's like winning an under 9s football league.

DOTA is just people who couldn't make it in L0L.

CS does earn respect especially if 10 plus years ago. But in today's age it's like playing checkers at the old people's home.

Never been more triggered by a post and that's saying something for me.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Shooters are for nerds. The only legit competitive games are Starcraft and Street fighter.

 

[strongwalker]

Football with toy cars. Nah I'm not having this mate.

Think of it as playing Football while Controlling just One boot where the boot is shaped like a toy car (which isnt so far from reality i mean have you seen what football boots look like these days?). Controlling it to so much detail that after what, 9 years after release, there are still new mechanics discovered. I Think this is still closer to real football than hitting "left plus X plus right paddle to do a cruyff turn" .

Cheers sw (plat 1, but 42 min no life lost to finish "Mission Impossible" on c64 )

 

[RedC]

I did Leeroy Jenkins.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

Never been more triggered by a post and that's saying something for me.

I was on the wind up. I know DOTA takes skill!

 

[Bepi]

I am quite good at NBA 2k mobile, grinding it again for the playoffs theme and with the simplest style: ball to Doncic, run up & down the arc until a spot opens and… BANG! another three.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

Think of it as playing Football while Controlling just One boot where the boot is shaped like a toy car (which isnt so far from reality i mean have you seen what football boots look like these days?). Controlling it to so much detail that after what, 9 years after release, there are still new mechanics discovered. I Think this is still closer to real football than hitting "left plus X plus right paddle to do a cruyff turn" .

Cheers sw (plat 1, but 42 min no life lost to finish "Mission Impossible" on c64 )

Sw?

Nah I've played rocket league before and it's quite fun and I can see why there is a decent competitive scene around it. Just not my cup of tea personally but defo a fun game.

 

[Redlambs]

Sorry if I've misinterpreted what you're saying.

I think you've got a terribly cynical view of things if I'm honest. When I was involved in esports around 2010 people got pcs because of a bigger game library and to play games they couldn't on console.
The call of duty esports scene was non existent on pc aside from a few search and destroy tournaments. The games weren't cross platform then either. There was no motivation to go to pc to cheat. It was to play games you can't on console mostly.

Now maybe things have somehow changed drastically in recent years. I don't agree with your views that cheating is rife and I've put alot of hours into gaming. Ive also both organised and competed in many cod lam events and online tournaments and again this cheating thing really was a non issue around 2010. Again maybe things have drastically changed but in my experience cheating was generally more of a pc issue and in my thousands of hours on ps it's barely impacted me.

And I apologise for that seeming harsher than it was intended. But cheating definitely is rife with online tournies. The devs involved aren't supposed to care either, their job isn't to police those and even if it was, how do they stop it? Lan is a different beast of course. But the way people make money off of it these days means there will always be people who make money off of it in anyway possible. That isn't cynical, that's the truth.

Agree with final paragraph.

That's because my background, both gamer and developer, is console first.

 

[Bosws87]

The only current game played with a controller that has a respectable competitive scene is Rocket League, across all genres.

Apex Legends?

Has a very healthy professional competitive scene with a big mix of both controller players and Mouse users its also the number 1 battle royale by quite some distance isn't it.

True competitive game should be raw input with the same hardware so consoles shouldn't really enter the conversation.

 

[hobbers]

Apex Legends?

Has a very healthy professional competitive scene with a big mix of both controller players and Mouse users its also the number 1 battle royale by quite some distance isn't it.

True competitive game should be raw input with the same hardware so consoles shouldn't really enter the conversation.

Battle royales ain't competitive games.

 

[Bosws87]

Battle royales ain't competitive games.

Course they are watch the pro scene on apex leagues and i'm saying this from someone that still watches most majors in CS:GO so i'm well aware of what most people would consider "the competitive shooter"

The competitive integrity due to the mix of inputs/platforms is not as high as a LAN CS:GO tournament, but its still a legitimate competitive scene/game.

 

[hobbers]

Course they are watch the pro scene on apex leagues and i'm saying this from someone that still watches most majors in CS:GO so i'm well aware of what most people would consider "the competitive shooter"

The competitive integrity due to the mix of inputs/platforms is not as high as a LAN CS:GO tournament, but its still a legitimate competitive scene/game.

BRs have competitive scenes because they're the most popular genre for streaming, not because the genre itself has any real element of competition.

Even hearthstone has/had a 'competitive scene'. Doesn't mean it's a competitive game.

 

[Bosws87]

BRs have competitive scenes because they're the most popular genre for streaming, not because the genre itself has any real element of competition.

Even hearthstone has/had a 'competitive scene'. Doesn't mean it's a competitive game.

A strange comment when you don’t have understanding of the depths, tactics involved in the game.

nothing to do with the genre as I can tell you warzone competitive scene and Fortnite’s are crap.

There has been numerous cases of high profile cheating at LANS at the top level in Counter strike to mention @Redlambs point. I think AI will be the tool to stop cheating in most cases, obviously the current go to is a kernel level anticheat which a lot of people do not like, I’d imagine CS2 will be the same.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

And I apologise for that seeming harsher than it was intended. But cheating definitely is rife with online tournies. The devs involved aren't supposed to care either, their job isn't to police those and even if it was, how do they stop it? Lan is a different beast of course. But the way people make money off of it these days means there will always be people who make money off of it in anyway possible. That isn't cynical, that's the truth.




That's because my background, both gamer and developer, is console first.

I agree with what you're saying but I still believe it's a bigger issue on PC than console as its easier to exploit in my opinion. I'm no dev so correct me if I'm wrong.

And you're right about cheating in online tournaments. Even back in 2010 on game battles ladders there were cheats that would exploit things. More exploiting bugs or lying about the outcomes of games rather than aim bots but still cheating.
I remember taking pictures on my phone every time a game ended of the scoreboard and players as evidence against potential cheaters.

I think it's down to the tournament organisers to police that rather than devs though. And while they can't police everything they can certainly try to improve the integrity by requiring players to stream their competitive tournament games and such live so that there is footage which can be referenced.

And yeah since 2010 things have changed loads. Back then you were playing to win a signature for your forum or a headset if you're lucky. Nowadays you're playing for 6 or 7 figures in some tournaments.

Someone needs to make an old boys gaming league in my opinion for 30+ so I can compete again. I used to love it back in the day.

 

[Redlambs]

Someone needs to make an old boys gaming league in my opinion for 30+ so I can compete again. I used to love it back in the day.

The problem isn't skills draining because of our old wrists and declining reactions, well maybe it partly is, it's about the time to devote more.

100% if I wanted to really try to compete in Valorant or CS:GO2 and dedicated myself to it, I wouldn't complete with the pro kids, but I sure as shit would rise the ranks. My aim is still as true, I just don't either the time nor interest in learning the maps and all the points.

Same on any console shooter (not that any of them interest me lately which is a huge shame).

But I really do respect the modern competitors. On the one hand they didn't have to learn the hard way like we did, on the other, the shit they pull off is insane and bar raising. I blame Fortnite for that Since turbo build into editing, it has changed movement in gaming forever.

 

[hobbers]

There has been numerous cases of high profile cheating at LANS at the top level in Counter strike to mention @Redlambs point.

Like that blobby cnut Flusha.

 

[Bosws87]

Like that blobby cnut Flusha.

One of the few that hasn’t been caught, some crazy crosshair placement clips though been suspected for a long time, who knows!

 

[Redlambs]

Hobs has never triple edited in his life, no wonder he's scared of BRs.

 

[hobbers]

Hobs has never triple edited in his life, no wonder he's scared of BRs.

Had to google that one.

There have only ever been two BRs of any worth, the original H1Z1 and the early days of Pubg.

 

[rimaldo]

i got a 5 star rated island on animal crossing.

 

[Vidyoyo]

3 pages of discussion when you know it's me? Really guys, what a waste of time.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Shooters are for nerds. The only legit competitive games are Starcraft and Street fighter.

I knew I liked you for a reason

 

[ThehatchetMan]

I knew I liked you for a reason

SFIV was a great game. I've never been a fan of Tekken or Mortal Combat or any fighter games really but I loved Street Fighter IV. Was a big Blanka noob lol!

 

[Baneofthegame]

Shooters are for nerds. The only legit competitive games are Starcraft and Street fighter.

I beat some [pG] players in StarCraft, once played Zenith who was a pro who destroyed me, also used to play with Midian who was the best UK player who went and played pro which wasn't common.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

SFIV was a great game. I've never been a fan of Tekken or Mortal Combat or any fighter games really but I loved Street Fighter IV. Was a big Blanka noob lol!

I loved SF2 as a kid but I played SF3 competitively. I pretty much stopped that by the release of SF4 but I played it a lot regardless. SF5 was a pile of shit though.

I really like Tekken. I think that was the game I was best at. Well... that or Cool Boarders 2 haha

 

[Bole Top]

I used to be amazing in fighting games. I even won a Sega Genesis as a prize at gaming club in some shithole in Serbia. younger gamers probably won't get it, but trust me, winning such prize while playing Mortal fecking Kombat... it doesn't get more special for a kid in those years. I still remember 2 older guys twice my size attacking me on the street soon after, beating the shit out of me and stealing couple of coupons which I also got as award good days.

 

[nimic]

I had the Curveball records on the old RedCafe arcade, so I'm definitely the best. Actually I think I was trading records with @Marcosdeto, so that might mean I'm about to go insane.

Edit: https://www.crazygames.com/game/curveball

Played it once and only got to lvl 8, I'm a fraud.