The fanbase's role in the erosion of standards

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Mediocrity is celebrated. Failure is excused.

Manchester United fanbase's role in the clubs demise in the last 10 years.

I said during the Ole era when people were excusing our Europa League failures that you can’t expect a set of players to fail at lower levels the suddenly be good enough to win better out of nowhere.

Yes the club move players on too slowly but you see it on here all the time, Maguire has finally hit a run of form yet we’ve seen what that means previously & people are talking as if he should be anywhere near the squad next year.

Until with see a squad turnover of epic proportions, expect nothing less, the survivor culture has been encouraged in no small part by our fans.

 

[The Mitcher]

Why is he pointing at an online poll then?

Where does he say the caf can get a manager fired?

 

[tjb]

I don't think you can blame the fanbase. I think they''ve been conditioned to back the managers due to the success we've had in the past doing so.
They don't make decisions and only go off statement from both the club and the media.
The club is to blame for actually seeking approval from fans and making decisions based on that. From binning the remnants of Fergie's squad under LVG to moving against Shaw, Pogba and the like under Mourinho to hiring Ole to signing Maguire and Sancho to ensuring Martial and Rashford were hyped and tied up and keeping managers far longer than they should have stayed due to time. Everything about the Glazer tenurer since Sir Alex has left has been tied to public opinion. The media is pro-manager, hence we are slow to sack managers. The media blames players hence we are quick to send messages chastizing players. The media love and overhype Rashford, so we give him a massive contract he hasn't earned.

It's due to a lack of structure, but we shouldn't act like our managers haven't been the main beneficiaries of this. The pressure to appease managers is media and fan based. The result is the last ten years of failure. Hopefully, Ratcliffe's team has strong internal policies that is not tied to public opinion.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I will give stick to the matchgoers today. That "top red" mentality was pathetic on television when I saw people singing songs of praise (WTF?) and clapping like a bunch of circus seals instead of taking the last few minutes of the match to vent all of the anger at the players. The only sound I wanted to hear inside Old Trafford after the 3rd goal was a good chunk of the crowd angrily chanting "You're not fit to wear the shirt" upon the whole team. I also said in the match thread that the vitriol must also be spewed up close and personal to the players because nothing will change until they taste it, as it would be done in places like Barcelona or Madrid.

Moyes and Ole were clapped off the pitch days before they were sacked

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

You should buy a ticket and go show them how it's done

Bro, I have seen how it's done in other grounds in England and the matchgoers in those other places are far more merciless than this meek fanbase of ours.

Moyes and Ole were clapped off the pitch days before they were sacked

Did I said anything about the managers? I'm talking about giving the vitriol to the players. In other European clubs and even in places like Arsenal, the matchgoers will make it very personal against the players if something is obviously wrong in their effort.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Did I said anything about the managers? I'm talking about giving the vitriol to the players. In other European clubs and even in places like Arsenal, the matchgoers will make it very personal against the players if something is obviously wrong in their effort.

No, but I did. They all deserve stick. Manager and players.

 

[Revan]

Who's celebrating? Wumming on a Saturday night? Get out and about lad.

We celebrated last season which was mediocre. Mid-seventy points, got several spankings, embarrassed in Europe, got the highest humiliation from Liverpool in a century, and for most part played shit football but the fanbase was celebrating the season cause we won some third-tier trophy.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I said during the Ole era when people were excusing our Europa League failures that you can’t expect a set of players to fail at lower levels the suddenly be good enough to win better out of nowhere.

Yes the club move players on too slowly but you see it on here all the time, Maguire has finally hit a run of form yet we’ve seen what that means previously & people are talking as if he should be anywhere near the squad next year.

Until with see a squad turnover of epic proportions, expect nothing less, the survivor culture has been encouraged in no small part by our fans.

Agree. After every McTominay game with a goal you get people saying he could be a good squad player. Maguire has a good month and people say he can be a contributor. Rashford has had 2 good seasons in his 8 years here and is called the star boy and is given a monster contract. And endless other examples.

I'd love nothing more than to do a full on fire sale of the team. Hojlund, Garnacho, Shaw, and Mainoo would be the only players we have that I'd be against selling. The majority of the rest should all be sold.

 

[pocco]

Our fan base is the brass band on the Titanic. They wouldn't have it with Ole either. You can lead a horse to water and all that...

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

I think there’s definitely ạ defensive, reactionary feeling among the fanbase, especially the match going one, of being called gloryhunters by oppos, hence the restraint from overt criticisms.

That being said, even when the criticisms did get overt, a lot of it felt really selective, still remember Nani/Fellaini/Pogba being booed off, while even worst performers got nowhere near the vitriols. The sort of universal, exacting harshness the OP demanded from the fanbase seems entirely alien to the culture of supporting in English football in general. I can’t imagine a group of fans trashing a player’s car like the Madrid fans did to Bale (although the Rooney episode in 2010 probably came close), and it isn’t exactly desirable either.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Mediocrity is celebrated. Failure is excused.

Manchester United fanbase's role in the clubs demise in the last 10 years.

In a shite season like this there’s usually stiff competition for cringiest post but we might have a very early winner here. The whole thread is an embarrassment but this is the cherry on top. Awesome work.

 

[Acheron]

That being said, even when the criticisms did get overt, a lot of it felt really selective, still remember Nani/Fellaini/Pogba being booed off, while even worst performers got nowhere near the vitriols. The sort of universal, exacting harshness the OP demanded from the fanbase seems entirely alien to the culture of supporting in English football in general. I can’t imagine a group of fans trashing a player’s car like the Madrid fans did to Bale (although the Rooney episode in 2010 probably came close), and it isn’t exactly desirable either.

Yes, it's a different culture. If it was me on the stadium would be booing the whole team and manager. It can also get over the top and out of hand so don't really know if it's a good thing or a bad thing. Anyway the impact shouldn't be as much as there aren't elections or socios in England.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

I think there’s definitely ạ defensive, reactionary feeling among the fanbase, especially the match going one, of being called gloryhunters by oppos, hence the restraint from overt criticisms.

That being said, even when the criticisms did get overt, a lot of it felt really selective, still remember Nani/Fellaini/Pogba being booed off, while even worst performers got nowhere near the vitriols. The sort of universal, exacting harshness the OP demanded from the fanbase seems entirely alien to the culture of supporting in English football in general. I can’t imagine a group of fans trashing a player’s car like the Madrid fans did to Bale (although the Rooney episode in 2010 probably came close), and it isn’t exactly desirable either.

Well, what would you do considering how the sense of entitlement is nigher than never before now with a number of modern footballers? There are a few of our boys who deserve the Bale treatment at this moment in time. It's only when the bubble is burst that maybe (and I say maybe) those players will start to wake the F up to reality.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

The fact that you think this is mediocrity rather than failure, says it all.

We celebrated last season which was mediocre. Mid-seventy points, got several spankings, embarrassed in Europe, got the highest humiliation from Liverpool in a century, and for most part played shit football but the fanbase was celebrating the season cause we won some third-tier trophy.

Indeed.

You’re both absolutely correct.

 

[Pickle85]

We celebrated last season which was mediocre. Mid-seventy points, got several spankings, embarrassed in Europe, got the highest humiliation from Liverpool in a century, and for most part played shit football but the fanbase was celebrating the season cause we won some third-tier trophy.

So are you knocking fans for celebrating a trophy? How would you have preferred people to act?

 

[tjb]

In a shite season like this there’s usually stiff competition for cringiest post but we might have a very early winner here. The whole thread is an embarrassment but this is the cherry on top. Awesome work.

I don't think he's wrong. We'e been talking about standards since Ten Haag came in, yet with the results and performances he's had this season, high standards would have led us to sack him. Just like each of the managers that came before him. Managers aren't held to the same account as players, which is why they last as long as they do.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't think he's wrong. We'e been talking about standards since Ten Haag came in, yet with the results and performances he's had this season, high standards would have led us to sack him. Just like each of the managers that came before him. Managers aren't held to the same account as players, which is why they last as long as they do.

Of course he’s fecking wrong. What on earth do the fans have to do with the hiring and firing of managers? This team hasn’t even been getting unequivocal support. They’ve been boo’d off the pitch multiple times in the last two years.

 

[NZT-One]

Agree. After every McTominay game with a goal you get people saying he could be a good squad player. Maguire has a good month and people say he can be a contributor. Rashford has had 2 good seasons in his 8 years here and is called the star boy and is given a monster contract. And endless other examples.

I'd love nothing more than to do a full on fire sale of the team. Hojlund, Garnacho, Shaw, and Mainoo would be the only players we have that I'd be against selling. The majority of the rest should all be sold.

Same here. I am fine if we get rid of the manager as well - but only if those players are getting the axe as well. Only thing to disagree here is your mention of Shaw. To me, he would be one of the top 7 to get rid of. He is a good player but he is far to comfortable around here. He epitomises a mindset that I consider as way to spread around this team - being fine with failure in matches as long as oneself isn't the biggest culprit. Can't stand the guy. And I was a huge fan in his first season... What a player he could have been if it weren't for that legbreak.

 

[Scandi Red]

Damn Fans. They ruined Fanland!

 

[NZT-One]

Generally I don't think, the fans play a big role in it. But I thought quite often, that big chunks of the fan base were appeased a little to easily by romantic story lines (like bring back Pogba, give Ole permanent manager, etc) and with big names in terms of transfers. It isn't an accusation though, it is completely plausible but I think, the club had it a little too easy in some situations.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Same here. I am fine if we get rid of the manager as well - but only if those players are getting the axe as well. Only thing to disagree here is your mention of Shaw. To me, he would be one of the top 7 to get rid of. He is a good player but he is far to comfortable around here. He epitomises a mindset that I consider as way to spread around this team - being fine with failure in matches as long as oneself isn't the biggest culprit. Can't stand the guy. And I was a huge fan in his first season... What a player he could have been if it weren't for that legbreak.

Oh I almost included Shaw, agree on all fronts with him I just do think his profile and ability is difficult to find. Mentality aside, he’s one of the only players that actual has the technical ability to play in an elite side. But I’m perfectly fine kicking him out too

 

[Tyrion]

I said during the Ole era when people were excusing our Europa League failures that you can’t expect a set of players to fail at lower levels the suddenly be good enough to win better out of nowhere.

Yes the club move players on too slowly but you see it on here all the time, Maguire has finally hit a run of form yet we’ve seen what that means previously & people are talking as if he should be anywhere near the squad next year.

Until with see a squad turnover of epic proportions, expect nothing less, the survivor culture has been encouraged in no small part by our fans.

The culture at the club hasn't nothing to do with fans. We're spectators. Our mindset has as much impact on results as whether we wear a pair of lucky socks or not.

 

[Yorke to Cole]

The supporters here are fractured. That is going to be the case if you have global fanbase. The problem is the commercial department does not accept a fall in standards whereas the football side has been neglected. Those who continue to support the commercial side in anyway are keeping the Glazer's in place.

However, fans, like the away fans and those in the home games (who have been going for many years) can clearly see the sporting side has failed.

So if there was a clearly defined sporting goal that is the fans can visibly see, it would unite the club as one and success or lack of, can be easily identified But if you continue to purchase items and treat the place like a museum, you lower your standards by becoming apathetic, as it become comfortable to say "at least I saw United play today" or I brought the latest United bed linen.

Sport is a dynamic and competitive environment and not a passive one.

Those at the top define the direction.

 

[Someone]

The way to turn this club around isn't through fans turning quickly on managers and players. Sometimes patience is warranted, as you can see with Arteta. Either way it's not our job, as we don't even agree on anything. People running the club should be setting the standards, and making informed decisions.

If you ask me to run the club now I wouldn't even know where to look. Is it the manager? The recruitment? Should I replace everyone? This is how bad things are at the moment, because the Glazers and Woodward allowed it. It's not our fault that we're sometimes patient.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Of course he’s fecking wrong. What on earth do the fans have to do with the hiring and firing of managers? This team hasn’t even been getting unequivocal support. They’ve been boo’d off the pitch multiple times in the last two years.

Spot on. To declare that the fans are to blame or deserve partial credit for this shitshow is incredible.

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

I don't think the fans have a role per se in the erosion of standards, but you do get a lot of "top reds" on this site who pile in if you so much as criticise the team, manager or individual players, even after horrifically shit performances.

I don't understand their mindset, are we supposed to be happy with mediocrity and just put up and shut up?! Why continually defend players that have proven to be not good enough multiple times?

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

The culture at the club hasn't nothing to do with fans. We're spectators. Our mindset has as much impact on results as whether we wear a pair of lucky socks or not.

To some extent I certainly agree. Though I think moments like fans turning up outside Rooneys house, pitch invading before a Liverpool game or another home visit with Richard Arnold does far more than refresh a persons underwear.

We will probably now get into a back & forth over lucky socks. That indeed has no impact but that’s not what I mean.

It’s probably more cultural but if this were Real, Bayern, Barca the club would be under no uncertainty as to its need to do better & certain players would be hounded out, you think a Maguire equivalent would still be in situ? or a McTominay? or even a Rashford? No but they are at United because of a Survivor Culture.

If you think the culture surrounding a club has nothing to do with the fans or vice versa I’d say the fact we’re even discussing this is proof it does, do you reckon there’s a thread like this on a City forum currently?

Yesterday is another classic example. Our match goers are generally impeccable when it comes to supporting the team, you could feel the air get sucked out of OT after they scored so early cause they’ve all seen this before. I’ve been at losses at OT when there’s no faith in the team & players are clearly influenced [& vice versa].

 

[horsechoker]

Surely we have to blame the people of Manchester for letting this happen. They are sabotaging the club because they're upset it's no longer theirs

 

[Lyng]

@Skills how big a role do you think man city's fanbase played in their -success-? fecking zero. How big a role did the 115 charges, the missed doping tests fines, etc etc play? A large one.

To be fair, you need to have a fanbase for it to play a role

 

[MancunianAngels]

A point I'll make again.

Unless you've made a conscious decision to stop going yourself via a boycott, you have no right to question the mentality of a matchgoing fan.

To some extent I certainly agree. Though I think moments like fans turning up outside Rooneys house, pitch invading before a Liverpool game or another home visit with Richard Arnold does far more than refresh a persons underwear.

We will probably now get into a back & forth over lucky socks. That indeed has no impact but that’s not what I mean.

It’s probably more cultural but if this were Real, Bayern, Barca the club would be under no uncertainty as to its need to do better & certain players would be hounded out, you think a Maguire equivalent would still be in situ? or a McTominay? or even a Rashford? No but they are at United because of a Survivor Culture.

If you think the culture surrounding a club has nothing to do with the fans or vice versa I’d say the fact we’re even discussing this is proof it does, do you reckon there’s a thread like this on a City forum currently?

Yesterday is another classic example. Our match goers are generally impeccable when it comes to supporting the team, you could feel the air get sucked out of OT after they scored so early cause they’ve all seen this before. I’ve been at losses at OT when there’s no faith in the team & players are clearly influenced [& vice versa].

You make valid points in the first paragraph here. However, the Liverpool protest was properly organised by people who knew what they were doing.

If you want fans to do something, there has to be an organisation within the support that actively gets off their arses and does the leg work.

 

[Ole'sgunnarwin]

We celebrated last season which was mediocre. Mid-seventy points, got several spankings, embarrassed in Europe, got the highest humiliation from Liverpool in a century, and for most part played shit football but the fanbase was celebrating the season cause we won some third-tier trophy.

This 100%. How anyone celebrated last season is baffling. You can see with the heavy defeats last season that the players still had a disgraceful attitude.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Yesterday is another classic example. Our match goers are generally impeccable when it comes to supporting the team, you could feel the air get sucked out of OT after they scored so early cause they’ve all seen this before. I’ve been at losses at OT when there’s no faith in the team & players are clearly influenced [& vice versa].

How often we let the first shot on target against us go in is shocking really, and the players just don't ever seem to believe it's going to ever get any better than that. Used to be when we scored it was expected, nowadays it's just like - oh, we're losing 1-0 at half time and none of our players can score goals anymore, the players have to be thinking the same sort of way. It's not the FANS fault, but there's an air of desperation every time we go forward: nobody in our team believes they're ever going to score. There's a compilation of the chances we had yesterday somewhere and the football leading up to the chances is GREAT, but the final third stuff (excepting Fernandes and Garnacho in my opinion) just looks so insanely desperate to score. Hojlund, Martial, Rashford, Antony - they all take what I'd say are speculative shots quite often, it's a shock when they go in. There's usually a player just behind them in acres of space when they do it. There's usually a chance to take another touch. There's usually a better option that they avoid in order -to- shoot. The expectations are higher than some players talent, but it must be absolutely crushing their egos. There's some footballers in the team, but they are never going to live up to the levels demanded by the fans.

You don't blame the fans for that, you get players that -can- live up to them. But an endless cacophony of boos won't help us either.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

A point I'll make again.

Unless you've made a conscious decision to stop going yourself via a boycott, you have no right to question the mentality of a matchgoing fan.


You make valid points in the first paragraph here. However, the Liverpool protest was properly organised by people who knew what they were doing.

If you want fans to do something, there has to be an organisation within the support that actively gets off their arses and does the leg work.

I’m in the fortunate position I can get hospitality tickets due to work & could attend most home games. I’ve also been a club member since my early teens, used last a few years ago. Life & distance mean I no longer view spending the time or money to travel up in my best interest post-Covid but if I jump in the leather seats at the next home game does my opinion quash others? No.

You’re coming at the post totally wrong, I’m not saying do anything. Others have condemned matchgoers where if you read my post again I call ours ‘generally impeccable’.

All I said was at other clubs things would be different - do you disagree with the clubs listed? But I say this & what tends to then happen is a bubble is formed around matchgoers as if it’s a criticism of them, this wasn’t. I was discussing this in the Greenwood thread previously & a number of matchgoers I do know just want to go to the game, enjoy the football [rare these days] & go home. They shouldn’t have to be doing things like protesting or shouting for people to go, the club should be run better. What I’m saying is the culture around Manchester United, which the fans play our part, has certainly hit a state of malaise but we do have some influence as the examples listed show.

The poster in question was talking about fans having as much influence as changing socks, thoughts?

 

[Reyoji-Utd]

I said during the Ole era when people were excusing our Europa League failures that you can’t expect a set of players to fail at lower levels the suddenly be good enough to win better out of nowhere.

Yes the club move players on too slowly but you see it on here all the time, Maguire has finally hit a run of form yet we’ve seen what that means previously & people are talking as if he should be anywhere near the squad next year.

Until with see a squad turnover of epic proportions, expect nothing less, the survivor culture has been encouraged in no small part by our fans.

Fans are turning into players fans rather clubs fans with all the social media that gives players and other influencers the power to generate their own influnces and fan power.

We are seeing alot of fans that thinking more about players rather then the club itself. Everyone is at fault here, we cannot expect the managers (any managers) to come in and win anything when we have sub standard players (United standard) and the whole club management from top to bottom. Everyone have to be on the same page to win anything. Certain standard have to be uphold for everyones, however, the past few years, we see alot of power are shifting to the plyers and the Glazers are givimg them that because they see them as assets to generate money rather than success. We have to find a good balance between success on field and commercial success because both are needed for us to succeed.

 

[Lentwood]

The fanbase don't have a role in eroding standards.

 

[neon_badger]

Most people I know that go to games do it out of habit, they've been going since the 90s, some folks I know have been going since the 70s, it's a part of their life, meet in the pub, have a few beers with your mates and let off some steam. They have families etc, and pay a lot to go to these games, it would be pretty futile to go just to boo and leave early. Maybe there's an element of denial with match going fans, if you accept how bad the club are you might as well cancel your season ticket.

 

[Partridge]

It was obvious to me that when fergie retired, we would not see the sort of success we have had for a while. Success is cyclical in football, shit changes. I never thought we would be suffering for such a long period of time however. The erosion of the clubs standards and quality is what has lead to fans, quite rightly, being incredibly pissed off. Any other clubs fans would react the same way.

 

[stefan92]

It was obvious to me that when fergie retired, we would not see the sort of success we have had for a while. Success is cyclical in football, shit changes. I never thought we would be suffering for such a long period of time however. The erosion of the clubs standards and quality is what has lead to fans, quite rightly, being incredibly pissed off. Any other clubs fans would react the same way.

Lots of fans make excuses for the manager, the players, essentially everyone. Those fans lowered their standards far below what fans of every real elite club would do. There just are far less truly pissed off fans than there should be.

 

[Morpheus 7]

I think you just have to look at the sales process, how pathetic and accepting fans are of not getting a full sale. Old Trafford had a few banners by the tunnel and the 1958 did do there best. Otherwise it was resignation to a doomed fate.

United are in a bad cycle and it could take years to fix unfortunately. Standards and mentality are linked, they don't happen over night and they take time to culture.

 

[AltiUn]

I said during the Ole era when people were excusing our Europa League failures that you can’t expect a set of players to fail at lower levels the suddenly be good enough to win better out of nowhere.

Yes the club move players on too slowly but you see it on here all the time, Maguire has finally hit a run of form yet we’ve seen what that means previously & people are talking as if he should be anywhere near the squad next year.

Until with see a squad turnover of epic proportions, expect nothing less, the survivor culture has been encouraged in no small part by our fans.

The Europa League excusing is even more embarrassing because the only reason we were even in that competition in the first place was because we bottled the CL group stages.