The "lazy black player" stereotype

Adisa

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The post match discussion barely talked about his skill or the creativity of his passing range. Maybe I've failed to take the context of this specific case into account but the other part of his game doesn't get enough of a mention imo.
 

Canagel

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If it was in the context of the headed goal, I would understand somewhat.
The headed goal had nothing to do with pace and power though. It was clever movement and all about the timing of the run into the box.
 

NinjaFletch

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If you check the Matchday Thread, my instant reaction to Pogba's leap was to compare it to the air that Jordan got on his dunks. Different basketballer, same idea.



I'm pretty sure I'd have said the same thing about some of Ronaldo's headers for United.

I don't think this particular article is stereotyping in any way. It's a very natural parallel. Basketballers are the most obvious comparison to draw when you see somebody leap extremely high.
Right, but that was one moment. People aren't saying Pogba isn't athletic, but that the exclusive focus on that element of his game after a match in which he showed repeatedly how insanely technically gifted he is is bizarre and wouldn't happen if Pogba was white.
 

Chipper

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The headed goal had nothing to do with pace and power though. It was clever movement and all about the timing of the run into the box.
He ran 50 yards in pretty much a straight line, had a bit of a wrestling match with the bloke who was trying to pick him (who gave up) and then headed it in. That was not noticeably clever movement. Timing was good though.
 

Bola

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This is the curse of the SJW and those who seek to categorise and divide human beings like the dark days of colonial Rwanda and facist Germany

Is rather the attention focuses on real racism (as opposed to warpung reality) like the disgusting stuff Koubillay endured the other day
 

witchtrials

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If you check the Matchday Thread, my instant reaction to Pogba's leap was to compare it to the air that Jordan got on his dunks. Different basketballer, same idea.

I don't think this particular article is stereotyping in any way. It's a very natural parallel. Basketballers are the most obvious comparison to draw when you see somebody leap extremely high.
Not read the article so I don't know whether it's a particularly egregious example of stereotyping, but in any case I'd say there is a difference between, on the one hand, you or anyone making a single comparison as part of an ongoing commentary on the game, and on the other hand some pundit(s) repeatedly insisting on strength, power and pace as the key features of his game when clearly his outstanding attibutes are his touch and passing.

It can be hard to say whether any individual article or headline is an example of stereotyping but if either a particular pundit or the media on average is focusing on his physical attributes over the rest of his game, disproportionally and time after time, then there is some stereotyping going on.

Likewise, if over the years almost every post you made about Pogba was about his athleticism then maybe it'd be because of stereotyping.
 
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witchtrials

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This is the curse of the SJW and those who seek to categorise and divide human beings like the dark days of colonial Rwanda and facist Germany
Glad to see you're sticking to your principles and only making claims you can support with evidence. I'm going to take you up on your invitation from the other day and ask what evidence you have for this.
 

villain

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In a match where Pogba did it all, and most of it without ‘power & pace’, to focus on one specific moment where he does demonstrate those abilities in an article is exactly what we’ve been trying to point out about the stereotypes about black athletes.

Has there ever been an article that focuses solely on his vision, technique, passing and football IQ?
 

Bola

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Glad to see you're sticking to your principles and only making claims you can support with evidence. I'm going to take you up on your invitation from the other day and ask what evidence you have for this.
There may be a question of a point in here, but I; a) can't see it, and b) doubt it's related the the main topic of this thread
 

RedCurry

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The headed goal had nothing to do with pace and power though. It was clever movement and all about the timing of the run into the box.
Surely you can appreciate the amount of ground Pogba covered and the leap to get to that cross. I doubt too many players in our team would reach the ball before the keeper.
 

adexkola

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This is the curse of the SJW and those who seek to categorise and divide human beings like the dark days of colonial Rwanda and facist Germany

Is rather the attention focuses on real racism (as opposed to warpung reality) like the disgusting stuff Koubillay endured the other day
:lol:

I don't even know where to start
 

Adisa

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He is arguably the most skilful CM in the country. I mean, think about it, which CM comes close? Maybe Silva, now that he's been converted but that's it.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Right, but that was one moment. People aren't saying Pogba isn't athletic, but that the exclusive focus on that element of his game after a match in which he showed repeatedly how insanely technically gifted he is is bizarre and wouldn't happen if Pogba was white.
That moment led to a goal so was always going to be scrutinised more than other moments in the game. He was competing in the air to win a header against a bloke who could use his hands. And those hands ended up barely reaching his chest!

That’s a spectacular and important moment in the match and obviously worth discussing after the game, with basketballers an obvious comparison. Jamie Redknapp’s done absolutely nothing wrong here and it’s tiresome the way people seem to be constantly looking to take offence at innocuous comments.
 

witchtrials

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There may be a question of a point in here, but I; a) can't see it, and b) doubt it's related the the main topic of this thread
Don't tell me you don't remember how, a few pages back, you insisted that you only make claims when they're backed up by evidence. Well I'm asking you what your evidence is that anti-racists or "SJWs" if we're going to talk like kids on 4chan, are seeking to divide people like in fascist Germany. You made a similar claim the other day and couldn't back it up then either.

To be honest I was being gentle by talking about issues of evidence rather than addressing the more obvious farcical feature of your post i.e. claiming that questioning racist stereotypes was how the Holocaust started. To most people it would be obvious that the Holocaust is precisely an example of the very worst that can happen when racial stereotypes are allowed to spread unchallenged.
 

Tarrou

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I saw him saying this and he was specifically speaking about the powerful run and leap for the 2nd goal, which I think is fine personally
 

Bola

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Don't tell me you don't remember how, a few pages back, you insisted that you only make claims when they're backed up by evidence. Well I'm asking you what your evidence is that anti-racists or "SJWs" if we're going to talk like kids on 4chan, are seeking to divide people like in fascist Germany. You made a similar claim the other day and couldn't back it up then either.

To be honest I was being gentle by talking about issues of evidence rather than addressing the more obvious farcical feature of your post i.e. claiming that questioning racist stereotypes was how the Holocaust started. To most people it would be obvious that the Holocaust is precisely an example of the very worst that can happen when racial stereotypes are allowed to spread unchallenged.
I did give an example, it's just that one person didn't luke the example I gave and attempted to refute it.

Regarding a comment above, it's my opinion. There are individuals who look at the world through a crude lens and attempt to divide people in to even cruder boxes on simple physical characteristics. They then try and interpret the world though it, often misinterpreting it through their warped perspective.

This can be on the same spectrum as those who've committed some of the worst atrocities in recent human history. A key underlying factor was to divide unique individuals in to crude racial groups and take positive/ negative action accordingly

The sooner mankind can move aware with this practice and treat people according to their behaviour, the better we become. This of course applies to football.

I don't have a problem with racial stereotyping being challenged (hence my comment on koubially) where it exists, I just don't believe that the general Lukaku comments or the basketball related Pogba comment (the words themselves, I don't know about the personal thoughts that go behind them) are examples of this.
 
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bpet15

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What are you guys debating?
Adjectives that are acceptable when describing football players of color.

So far, we have removed lazy, fast, athletic and powerful from the list. Please refrain from using these terms.

Other than that, the thread remains an absolute car crash.
 

NinjaFletch

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That moment led to a goal so was always going to be scrutinised more than other moments in the game. He was competing in the air to win a header against a bloke who could use his hands. And those hands ended up barely reaching his chest!

That’s a spectacular and important moment in the match and obviously worth discussing after the game, with basketballers an obvious comparison. Jamie Redknapp’s done absolutely nothing wrong here and it’s tiresome the way people seem to be constantly looking to take offence at innocuous comments.
Of course. No one is saying otherwise. What people are saying though is that Pogba's performance was an incredibly complete all round performance in which he showcased repeatedly what an outrageously technically gifted footballer he is.

Yet, if you hadn't watched the game your take home from Redknapp's comments (both in his column and on the post match discussion) would be that the only notable thing he did was jump quite high. In fact, he actually went on to 'praise' him for how simple the rest of his game was, which is – frankly – bizarre.

At best, it's fairly lazy punditry of the sort of quality a bloke in a pub with a pint in his hand could manage. If you don't want to connect it to the trend being discussed here then that's your prerogative, but it's hardly the unreasonable leap some seem to be intimating.
 

witchtrials

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There are individuals who look at the world through a crude lens and attempt to divide people in to even cruder boxes on simple physical characteristics. They then try and interpret the world though it, often misinterpreting it through their warped perspective.

This can be on the same spectrum as those who've committed some of the worst atrocities in recent human history. A key underlying factor was to divide unique individuals in to crude racial groups and take positive/ negative action accordingly

The sooner mankind can move aware with this practice and treat people according to their behaviour, the better we become. This of course applies to football.

I don't have a problem with racial stereotyping being challenged (hence my comment on koubially) where it exists, I just don't believe that the general Lukaku comments or the basketball related Pogba are comments (the words themselves, I don't know about the personal thoughts that go behind them) are examples of this.
Yes but you're also making a completely asinine argument where you compare challenging stereotypes to racial genocide because it involves "division". All politics inherently involves some sort of division. Making a division between types of attitude and action is not in itself bad: unless you can make a division between different ways of thinking and acting then there is no way to distinguish between or even identify positive and negative social phenomena. The divisiveness of racism is poisonous because it is organised around a false social cleavage (i.e. one between distinct "races"), not just because all division is bad.

If you were able to do a bit of self-reflection then you might recognise that saying that anti-racists are "SJWs" and they want to bring about a new Holocaust is not exactly the actions of someone who is deeply concerned about divisiveness per se, as you claim to be.
 

Bola

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Yes but you're also making a completely asinine argument where you compare challenging stereotypes to racial genocide because it involves "division". All politics inherently involves some sort of division. Making a division between types of attitude and action is not in itself bad: unless you can make a division between different ways of thinking and acting then there is no way to distinguish between or even identify positive and negative social phenomena. The divisiveness of racism is poisonous because it is organised around a false social cleavage (i.e. one between distinct "races"), not just because all division is bad.

If you were able to do a bit of self-reflection then you might recognise that saying that anti-racists are "SJWs" and they want to bring about a new Holocaust is not exactly the actions of someone who is deeply concerned about divisiveness per se, as you claim to be.
You seem to have put 2 and 2 together and made 7.

As interesting as this discussion is, I'm not risking any more points for taking the thread off topic
 

VeevaVee

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Redknapp was talking about him bursting into the box, flying through everyone and jumping for a powerful header to score. Pogba has done it a few times now and it's great to watch, and very much relies on physical attributes. Someone of Mata's stature certainly isn't going to be doing that.

Footballers are athletic and physical attributes can contribute to their game. Pogba is a tall muscley bloke. There's gonna be times where that benefits him and I'd like to think he'll be using it to his advantage. Shock horror.
 

Bola

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Of course. No one is saying otherwise. What people are saying though is that Pogba's performance was an incredibly complete all round performance in which he showcased repeatedly what an outrageously technically gifted footballer he is.

Yet, if you hadn't watched the game your take home from Redknapp's comments (both in his column and on the post match discussion) would be that the only notable thing he did was jump quite high. In fact, he actually went on to 'praise' him for how simple the rest of his game was, which is – frankly – bizarre.

At best, it's fairly lazy punditry of the sort of quality a bloke in a pub with a pint in his hand could manage. If you don't want to connect it to the trend being discussed here then that's your prerogative, but it's hardly the unreasonable leap some seem to be intimating.
Your comment on lazy punditry that is pub standard is a key thing to highlight.

We see a lot of crap analysis, what appears to be a lack of research, plus a delivery of views that are based on pre-conceived ideas or history*.

'Lazy' punditry does not necessarly equate to racial based stereotyping.

* be it tactics, views on a player, a playing style of certain clubs/ nations
 

NinjaFletch

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Your comment on lazy punditry that is pub standard is a key thing to highlight.

We see a lot of crap analysis, what appears to be a lack of research, plus a delivery of views that are based on pre-conceived ideas or history*.

'Lazy' punditry does not necessarly equate to racial based stereotyping.

* be it tactics, views on a player, a playing style of certain clubs/ nations
Agreed, but just because something is lazy doesn't mean it doesn't simultaneously employ racial stereotypes. In fact, quite often it is precisely because something is lazy that it happens.
 

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"Black players lack intelligence" :lol: Who ever comes up with crap like that needs to give their heads a wobble

Can use so many examples but Makelele would be a good one, he's one of the most intelligent players I've seen play for us, guy basically had a position named after him and was absolutely key for both us and Madrid without needing to score goals or create chances
 

Bola

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Agreed, but just because something is lazy doesn't mean it doesn't simultaneously employ racial stereotypes. In fact, quite often it is precisely because something is lazy that it happens.
Yes. Both can happen at once.
 

Dante

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Right, but that was one moment. People aren't saying Pogba isn't athletic, but that the exclusive focus on that element of his game after a match in which he showed repeatedly how insanely technically gifted he is is bizarre and wouldn't happen if Pogba was white.
I think it's okay to call out a general trend of racially skewed commentary.

It's also okay to call out a single instance of obvious racially skewed commentary.

However, it makes me very uneasy to call out a single instance of commentary that can be viewed either way. In fact, I'd say it's borderline irresponsible to single out an article which when viewed with the benefit of the doubt, could be completely innocent.

I'm with you on the overall racist treatment of Pogba/Lukaku/Rashford or even Lewis Hamilton/Amir Khan. But the article in the Tweet is a fairly reasonable highlighting of the major moment in Pogba's match:
  • If a writer is going to focus on one thing for the headline, it's going to be a goal. And of the two goals, the header was the more spectacular. And the reason it was spectacular was the athleticism. It's a fairly straight line of reasoning for the journalist in question. And if they throw in a click-bait name like LeBron James, all the better. That'll take the story right to the top of the Google search results.
Maybe the journalist is a racist and I'm letting them get away with it. But I'd rather err on the side of caution when there's ambiguous evidence.
 

witchtrials

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This is the curse of the SJW and those who seek to categorise and divide human beings like the dark days of colonial Rwanda and facist Germany
You're also making a completely asinine argument where you compare challenging stereotypes to racial genocide because it involves "division".
You seem to have put 2 and 2 together and made 7.
?

As interesting as this discussion is, I'm not risking any more points for taking the thread off topic
If you think it's off topic then fine let's leave it, but in that case maybe you could stop throwing this drivel about "SJWs" around the thread in the first place, then declaring it irrelevant when someone challenges you for it.
 

Bola

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?



If you think it's off topic then fine let's leave it, but in that case maybe you could stop throwing this drivel about "SJWs" around the thread in the first place, then declaring it irrelevant when someone challenges you for it.
I think you need to calm down and take a few breaths

Regarding what is relevant and irreverent, I'm just going off what I was told by the admins. I got points, the other person didn't, so I'm being cautious
 

Halftrack

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Regarding a comment above, it's my opinion. There are individuals who look at the world through a crude lens and attempt to divide people in to even cruder boxes on simple physical characteristics. They then try and interpret the world though it, often misinterpreting it through their warped perspective.

This can be on the same spectrum as those who've committed some of the worst atrocities in recent human history. A key underlying factor was to divide unique individuals in to crude racial groups and take positive/ negative action accordingly
From what I gather, most of these "SJWs" don't want to exterminate or punish any of these groups (aside sexists, racists, Nazis and the like), but rather elevate and empower them, and celebrate diversity. To tie that to Nazi Germany's attempt at exterminating those they considered sub-human looks a hell of a lot like agenda driven nonsense.

More on topic; Racial stereotyping is definitely a problem, one that a lot of people are blind to. As exemplified by this very thread.
 

Bola

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From what I gather, most of these "SJWs" don't want to exterminate or punish any of these groups (aside sexists, racists, Nazis and the like), but rather elevate and empower them, and celebrate diversity. To tie that to Nazi Germany's attempt at exterminating those they considered sub-human looks a hell of a lot like agenda driven nonsense.
Nah. I'm just highlighting that both 'groups' focus uncessaily on so-called race, with the consequence or interpreting world based on this artificial division (unlike culture, or political views). I dont think that is healthy, with the historical examples what happens when it's taken to the extreme

That type of viewpoint isn't going to solve the problems we still have in football. Creating genuine opportunity to allow merit to succeed and punishing clear acts of discrimination will.
 

NinjaFletch

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I think it's okay to call out a general trend of racially skewed commentary.

It's also okay to call out a single instance of obvious racially skewed commentary.

However, it makes me very uneasy to call out a single instance of commentary that can be viewed either way. In fact, I'd say it's borderline irresponsible to single out an article which when viewed with the benefit of the doubt, could be completely innocent.

I'm with you on the overall racist treatment of Pogba/Lukaku/Rashford or even Lewis Hamilton/Amir Khan. But the article in the Tweet is a fairly reasonable highlighting of the major moment in Pogba's match:
  • If a writer is going to focus on one thing for the headline, it's going to be a goal. And of the two goals, the header was the more spectacular. And the reason it was spectacular was the athleticism. It's a fairly straight line of reasoning for the journalist in question. And if they throw in a click-bait name like LeBron James, all the better. That'll take the story right to the top of the Google search results.
I think we'd both agree that the Mail don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, so I think it's only worth talking about Redknapp himself.

His analysis is always lowest common denominator stuff. He does little research, and he's simplistic with what he says about football. One of the ways racial stereotypes proliferate is because people hear things, internalise them and subconsciously repeat them without thinking about why or how they have arrived at that conclusion. No one is saying that Redknapp is a racist (or if they are it's for other reasons than this), or that he was wrong to highlight that that was an impressive feat of athleticism, but that his brand of lazy punditry has seen him downplay just how good the rest of Pogba's performance also was.

I don't think he's 'guilty' (although others may disagree) of anything more than he usually is which is just being a bit shit at his job, but in this instance it's seen him perpetuate and amplify a racial stereotype. It is low level stuff, but it contributes to the framework that sees the more obvious stuff (like the recent stuff with Sterling) happen.
 
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villain

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Nah. I'm just highlighting that both 'groups' focus uncessaily on so-called race, with the consequence or interpreting world based on this artificial division (unlike culture, or political views). I dont think that is healthy, with the historical examples what happens when it's taken to the extreme

That type of viewpoint isn't going to solve the problems we still have in football. Creating genuine opportunity to allow merit to succeed and punishing clear acts of discrimination will.
I think your problem is, you preferred when race wasn’t discussed as often as it is now.
What you fail to understand is, in those times when we didn’t discuss race - it wasn’t that issues that affect PoC athletes & people didn’t exist, they did - it’s that there were often barriers to discussing those issues, whereas now due to things like the internet & social media, we can discuss such issues openly on public platforms.
You have this view that talking about racial issues will cause divide - it won’t, every issue shows that large amounts of people don’t even know/understand/have any exposure to the issues that PoC face. Therefore if we don’t discuss it, the general populace will continue to remain ignorant, and PoC will continue to be affected.
That’s not ideal.

The problem that we see on here is almost any time something racial is discussed most people care more about trying to prove why it’s not racist, rather than being open to hearing why PoC feel the way that they do, and trying to understand where that gap comes from - this is what causes issues and causes the divide. Personally, if I approach a subject that I don’t know or understand, I want to listen and learn before forming my own opinion. When it comes to race, more often than not - it’s immediately shut down as a non-issue by the very people it doesn’t affect, and very few are willing to listen. You being one, from my perceptions of your posts on the topic anyway b

I won’t hold my breath though, I think most people would prefer not to have to talk about these things, however you shouldn’t then be surprised if PoC get emotional about these topics, they’re highly personal and emotive for those that they affect.
 

Rhyme Animal

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This is the curse of the SJW and those who seek to categorise and divide human beings like the dark days of colonial Rwanda and facist Germany

Is rather the attention focuses on real racism (as opposed to warpung reality) like the disgusting stuff Koubillay endured the other day
No, it's the beginning of the turning of the tide of lazy stereotypes being accepted as the norm.

'Real racism', is any kind of differing treatment due to race, doesn't matter if subtle or not.

'Real racism' doesn't begin and end with illegal racist abuse - better for people to get used to this rather than whinging and whining endlessly about 'SJWs', and 'Political Correctness Gone Mad' etc.