Yes now check his assists stats.
The "lazy black player" stereotype
- Thread starter Barca84
- Start date
Martial is intelligent, his detractors call him lazy because of his demeanor, which I think is bullshit, he is just another attacker who hates running up and down the pitch like a workhorse.
Rashford is pretty unintelligent with the ball but is the exact opposite of lazy.
Do a proper analysis then get back to me, and the comment wasn't about lazy it was about 3 categories:
Lazy
Attitude problems
Unintelligent.
Martial is called unintelligent on this forum let alone outside it
This isn't to discount the wider problem of racism in football @Barca84 as there's certainly a discussion to be had. Also the person comparing Lukaku to a gorilla should of course be banned. It isn't even ignoring the issue of racism directed solely at Romelu Lukaku, for instance the huge penis song, or the Everton board member (I think) who made a joke about Lukaku (a Belgian!) engaging in voodoo.
My point is, there's plenty of obviously racist stuff you could have made a thread about, and you wouldn't even need to look any further than Lukaku himself. I just think you picked a weird example since there's clearly some truth in it, and a lot of people who believe it to be the case. Thus you're going to find more people digging their heels in, and using it as evidence of "people finding racism in everything". The more accusations get thrown around based on cases like this where it isn't necessarily warranted, the more people chalk it up to 'PC gone mad'. I just don't know if it's the best way to get people around to your side.
My point is, there's plenty of obviously racist stuff you could have made a thread about, and you wouldn't even need to look any further than Lukaku himself. I just think you picked a weird example since there's clearly some truth in it, and a lot of people who believe it to be the case. Thus you're going to find more people digging their heels in, and using it as evidence of "people finding racism in everything". The more accusations get thrown around based on cases like this where it isn't necessarily warranted, the more people chalk it up to 'PC gone mad'. I just don't know if it's the best way to get people around to your side.
Spot on.
Not in France
The post the OP @Barca84 referred to in the Lukaku thread in obviously out of line. However it’s a fecking minority, by a country mile in that thread. So long as the PC crowd constantly stirr this makeshift pot, promoting every single critical comment on a black person as racist, we will never evolve on the topic. Reprehensible human beings exist and always will exist, including the recent filth that racially abused Sterling. It doesn’t mean it’s happening across the board and white players aren’t also receiving the exact same comments regularly. Let’s concentrate on stamping out the actual racism.
Problem with the OP is that the gorilla comment has been overlooked by claiming any criticism of Lukaku has been underpinned by racism which I totally disagree with.
Pogba has definitely been a victim of indirect and institutional racism - Lukaku not so much.
Pogba has definitely been a victim of indirect and institutional racism - Lukaku not so much.
I was just using a quick example. If you have actually done a proper analysis then I'd be delighted to hear it. Otherwise, like me, you have nothing more than pointless anecdotal evidence to support your theory.
Know what would be racist? If we can joke about and criticize Phil Jones but not Lukaku.
Supposedly it goes even further than that. Remember the guy who went into a fit because Martial has 2 kids by the age of 22?
It would be a very small minority. I'm a huge fan of Martial and often hang around his performance thread, the most criticism he gets is that he doesn't look interested or doesn't look like he is giving it all. It's his demeanor that puts off some people who like to see "pashun" and run through brickwalls for the team. Our entire squad apart from De Gea looks unintelligent to me this season so may be that what you picked up on.
I must admit I've never seen a stereotype that black players are lazy. But it must happen otherwise it wouldnt be mentioned.
But I'm interested in more animal comparisons and whether they have the same reaction?
From the top of my head I've heard players be called, deers/gazelles for their elegance and long stride.
Donkey - for their work ethic and clumsiness
Pitbull - for theur tenaciousness and never day die attitude.
I've even heard a player be called a panther, sitting between defence lines ready to pounce.
Is there more?
Not every comparison is meant in a negative way. But obviously if it is perceived negatively then apologies need to be made
But I'm interested in more animal comparisons and whether they have the same reaction?
From the top of my head I've heard players be called, deers/gazelles for their elegance and long stride.
Donkey - for their work ethic and clumsiness
Pitbull - for theur tenaciousness and never day die attitude.
I've even heard a player be called a panther, sitting between defence lines ready to pounce.
Is there more?
Not every comparison is meant in a negative way. But obviously if it is perceived negatively then apologies need to be made
Yep it's ridiculous, I personally don't think Lukaku is a lazy character but I can see why some would say especially recently. He just looks demotivated to me, lacking confidence. He has been lazy recently but last season he was chasing players down, remember him running back the whole pitch and making a tackle at our own corner flag!
There was even a documentary about it about a week ago. Again though stick to scoring points instead of listening and understanding.
It's a sad then when someone thinks calling someone lazy has anything to do with race. Calling someone a Gorilla is disgusting though.
Exactly this. I don't know where the OP was when Pogba went through so much last season and this season, even the pundits and press are constantly on his back questioning the mentality of a world cup winner.
I've called Mourinho a snake.
Dare not use the word specimen to describe anyone athletic that isn't white either...
usually the case with racism/ignorant stereotyping conscious or unconscious no?
I really hope this black v white racism nuance is sorted out soon so us turban wearing, curry and rice eating, physically inferior brownies can get a look in. 
Ibra was about 34 years old when he played for us and was scoring goals so it didn't matter. Even Lukaku didn't get the criticism he gets this season for his first touch last year because he was scoring goals and playing well. believe me if Ibra wasn't playing well, he'd have been called lazy too.
So agreeing with your take on things is "listening and understanding" but to question the lack of evidence for your take on things is cheap point scoring? Haha. that's one way to try and close down a debate i suppose.
Didn't he go on a baron run missing sitters week after week
Donkeys are sure footed animals, very prudent and they can take massive workload.
I find that a lot of groups and advocates of 'anti-racism' or 'equality' are only in it for a certain group and are not looking to remove racism/ discrimination across the board
One example is the accusations of institutional racism when it comes to managerial positions, using 'under representation' stats. Yet when it comes to players in the Prem, I believe the stats show that certain ethnic groups* are 'over-represented'** with the implication that 'white'* players are under represented. Where are the calls off institutional racism, racial stereotyping and advocates of measures like the Rooney rule?
Seems discrimination can only work one way for some groups and organisations
* I hate dividing people into broad boxes base on so-called racial differences, but have to use this PC parlance to make my point
** I don't subscribe to this idea of under/ over representation by ethnic group. As alluded to above, categorizing people based on skin colour (or other factor) is daft. Best person for the job in my view
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He was the Red Barren, chief.
I picked Lukaku in response to the gorilla jibe discussed. That precipitated this thread as did a trawl through the comments in his player performance thread which is a pretty ugly read at times.
I don't know what's "clear" about this supposed laziness. Others here have mentioned other perspectives on this. What is interesting is the rush of a mob to label him as lazy, and dumb, and how that fits into a historical narrative and the language that is used. So I'd say it's most certainly warranted and the "pc gone mad" brigade are just a noise. Once you let them shut down the debate you're in trouble.
No you suggesting I don't have any evidence, it is there for you to go and find if you do the research, or even go and watch the documentary about it. Suggesting Im talking without evidence is what I find rude. The only one here talking without having done the research between me and you, is you.
Why argue your point having not bothered to look into it?
The criticism of Martial reminds me of Berbatov.
Truly class player, but drew a lot of criticism for when things wern't going well because of his body language and demeanour
Well... He talks the talk, but evidence on the pitch suggests otherwise... that he is a bit thick - mentally and physically.
There's no grace about him at all, and this is quite obvious. The Real game comes to mind, where he chased a ball from offside position, while a teammate in a better position run was ruined. Remember Kroos laughing at him? Embarrassing.
There's no grace about him at all, and this is quite obvious. The Real game comes to mind, where he chased a ball from offside position, while a teammate in a better position run was ruined. Remember Kroos laughing at him? Embarrassing.
I didn't enjoy Ibra either tbh. Not a fan of the big lump up top, for want of a better phrase.
Athletes would generally be considered stallions or studs with the donkey being the poor relation.
Being from Asia, I have never really understood why players (or for that matter anyone) can be called donkeys and other animals, but then there is a generic taboo around calling any names that belong to the ape category. So in that context, I don't really get more horrified when someone gets called gorilla as opposed to a donkey or a dog.
But then people need to understand the cultural taboos on a public forum where there are people from all around the world and not throw words around.
But then people need to understand the cultural taboos on a public forum where there are people from all around the world and not throw words around.
So you have the evidence? What is it then? Does it prove that black players are criticised over certain aspects more than white players? I'd be happy to change my opinion if such evidence actually exists.
Wikipedia said:
I think in this particular case it is very hard to distinguish racism from opinions that aren't based on stereotypes (well, at least majorly since nobody is free of them of course). The laziness part exemplarily is of course total bullshit and personally I haven't come across it too often. If anything, Black players are referred to as powerhouses more often, at least here in Germany. However, it is a fact that Black people are physically stronger than many other ethnicities on average, too, and this also affects their style of playing football.
Regarding the game intelligence part: I think this is more complicated. Xavi, whom many consider one of if not the most intelligent player to play the game, said that he learned to play that way because he had to make due with what he had. He was never an exceptional athlete, never strong and never the most tricky player. He couldn't compensate bad touches or decisions by outsprinting his opponent or fending him off with upper body strength. He had to always pay attention to not maneuver himself into situations where there was no easy solution and make sure that every first touch was clean and thought through. Compare that exemplarily to Pogba. He has got all the skills in the world but he still often relies on his physical strength. A great player but most would probably agree that he could utiize his abilities even better if his decision making, concentration and spatial awareness was better. You could argue that he never had to face the problems Xavi encountered when he was formed as a player and that he thus never trained his positioning, decision making and "technical consistency" as much as the Spaniard did. Or Lukaku. Compare him with a real fox in the box like Inzaghi or van Nistelrooy. Of course he never really had to learn this type of movement because he could consistently win physical duels with the CBs all of his life in stark contrast to players like that. It is very are that a player combines both worlds and if he does he is usually among the very best in the world. Exemplarily Ronaldo, who exceeds physically and also has the exceptional movement in the box.
And this is not only a thing with Black players. There are physically stronger and smaller ethnicities, it is no racism to point that out and it influences the way players of these groups develop. Take exemplarily German and English players who for years or even decades consisted primarily of hard working, dynamic, direct and physical types like Ballack, Lampard or Gerrard. Only after they purposely adjusted their youth systems to a more technical style, players like Kroos, Özil, Wilshere or now Kimmich, Foden etc. emerged at a much higher frequency. So there is also a cultural component. Here stereotypes come into play again because maybe Black youth players fall victim to self-fullfilling prophecies. All of this makes it incredible hard to distinguish between racism and valid opinions.
You can also see it at the Yaya accusations against Pep. Guardiola prefers technically clean, not necessarily technically spectactular players with a low center of gravity in his midfields. I can think of very few Black midfielders that fit to this description and those who do Guardiola would take in an instance - Kante in particular. That's not racist, it is just a preference of a certain player type some ethnicities are more likely to produce. For me that's also what makes international football so exciting. You always have teams that exceed in some areas of the game and are weak in others.