Borden
New Member
Well he isn’t particularly big so that’s not very surprising is it?He primarily not described and big and powerful no.
Zlatan however is, and he’s been constantly described as such.
Well he isn’t particularly big so that’s not very surprising is it?He primarily not described and big and powerful no.
Well he is actually he is of a similar height and build to PogbaWell he isn’t particularly big so that’s not very surprising is it?
Zlatan however is, and he’s been constantly described as such.
He’s not as tall, and physical strength has never been a hallmark of his game in the same way as Pogba (or Zlatan).Well he is actually he is of a similar height and build to Pogba
He is of a similar height to Pogba, infact the difference in height between him (6ft 1) and Pogba (6ft 3) is the same difference to Pogba and Zlatan (6ft 5). His physicality is a huge part of his game, especially his athletic leap and ability to beat most defenders in the air and when he was younger his ability to hold of defenders and also breeze past them in a similar way to Pogba.He’s not as tall, and physical strength has never been a hallmark of his game in the same way as Pogba (or Zlatan).
Yep and everyone acknowledges that. Ronaldo’s athleticism and fitness is widely seen as some of his main attributes. So what’s your point again?He is of a similar height to Pogba, infact the difference in height between him (6ft 1) and Pogba (6ft 3) is the same difference to Pogba and Zlatan (6ft 5). His physicality is a huge part of his game, especially his athletic leap and ability to beat most defenders in the air and when he was younger his ability to hold of defenders and also breeze past them in a similar way to Pogba.
I would suggest the reason why you think physical strength wasn't a hallmark as much as Pogba is more to do with the media description and representation of the 2 players than reality.
We agree to disagree. The funny thing is Ronaldo himself celebrates his physical strength a lot more than the media doYep and everyone acknowledges that. Ronaldo’s athleticism and fitness is widely seen as some of his main attributes. So what’s your point again?
And I would suggest you’re talking nonsense. Pogba is a physically stronger and more imposing player than Ronaldo. As is Zlatan.
Except he was actually pretty quick, Gerrard had better acceleration but Yaya in full flow was quick and most CMs were not keeping up with him.Yeah, kind of. He wasn't blessed with great pace like Gerrard was. Where Gerrard "exploded" forward, Yaya lumbered. He basically walked through entire opposition midfields because his strength allowed him to do so.
Again I don't think we're saying its never mentioned, we're talking about it being the primary use of description for a player. Especially players who have high levels of technical abilityMcTominay's physicality gets brought up all the time.
Media commentators are, by and large, children of the 70s and 80s. Back then, box-to-box midfield powerhouses were a big feature of the English game. It's not surprising when it gets noticed by those people.
It's not racially biased to mention strength/power. The same thing was said about Ronaldo's header versus Roma.
That header has a lot in common with Pogba's header against Bournemouth, and is the reason for the headlines being about 'power'.
Not to my mind he wasn't.Except he was actually pretty quick, Gerrard had better acceleration but Yaya in full flow was quick and most CMs were not keeping up with him.
How do you judge 'primary' descriptors?Again I don't think we're saying its never mentioned, we're talking about it being the primary use of description for a player.
The primary thing I hear about Pogba from sky pundits is that hes a big lad and that he should be imposing himself in midfield (when he wasn't on form). No body can live with him because he is too big and too strong etc etc etc.How do you judge 'primary' descriptors?
The original point of this thread was about people who question black players' intelligence. That is unequivocally racist, imo.
But the most recent strand of debate is about talking up physicality. And that was kicked off by the headline about Pogba's powerful header versus Bournemouth. Which is why the Ronaldo comparison is relevant.
I've frequently called out racially biased posts about Lukaku and Rashford's intelligence on this forum (and got loads of stick for it). But I definitely don't see physicality being the primary descriptor of Pogba over and above anyone else. If I did see it, I'd be calling it out too.
He was always seen as being lazy/lumbering whilst he was in the PL. Later years or notThe most recent memories of Yaya are from his final seasons at City. It's fair to say he'd lost a lot of pace by that point and had resorted to lumbering around. It happens to the best of us.
So was Berbatov.He was always seen as being lazy/lumbering whilst he was in the PL. Later years or not
Yes I agree. Yaya wasn't lumbering though was the point.So was Berbatov.
By 80s and 90s midfielders who played the game in a certain way and are projecting their own mindsets onto a modern footballer.The primary thing I hear about Pogba from sky pundits is that hes a big lad and that he should be imposing himself in midfield (when he wasn't on form). No body can live with him because he is too big and too strong etc etc etc.
I am not talking about him scoring a goal where he uses his physical attributes and the commentator mentioning it.
Its how he is talked about in general, if you listened to that and didn't watch you wouldn't IMO realise how skilful and technically brilliant he really is. That is what I meant when I talked about primary description.
Yes I agreeBy 80s and 90s midfielders who played the game in a certain way and are projecting their own mindsets onto a modern footballer.
“Lumbering forward like a tree in shorts” was a popular way to describe him on here back in the day. I think partly because it was so spot on.Yes I agree. Yaya wasn't lumbering though was the point.
Sounds like society in general. slowly backs out of threadThis thread is becoming a bit of an echo chamber for perceived feelings and comments.
People see what they want to see.There’s about 23 pages of responses to this question that would explain exactly why. There’s no point in me repeating the bloody obvious when so many other posters have done it so much better.
I don’t even agree that his physicality is his “prime strength”. He is a phenomenal passer and has great technique. If he wasn’t black, he’d probably be seen in a much more flattering light as the “maestro” that the Köln fan above was talking about. Pogba would still be a top player if he was built like Marvin Martin but would not if he had the technical ability of Carlton Palmer.
I always think the best example of the media’s unconcious racial bias is the difference in the way Steven Gerrard and Yaya Touré are described and the emphasis put on certain aspects of their skillsets. They were both very similar players at their best (though Touré was imo a more intelligent footballer and obviously had the better career.)
Well said sir.Christ, society is so full of fragile drama queens it's almost intolerable.
"He complimented him but it's not the right compliment!!"
Get over yourselves ffs, it's fecking ridiculous at some point.
Maybe the "big and strong" compliment is just because not many players are as big and strong as some of the players mentionded in this thread, no?
Sometimes it can be just that simple without there being no ill will or (institutional) racism behind it..
Not saying this will be in all cases but I'm willing to bet it's in most.
You’re missing the point.People see what they want to see.
The way Pogba holds players off and creates space for himself is the best in the league, maybe the world. It's a skill. It's a skill that requires excellent physical strength. It's certainly not the only thing he gets praised for (or even the primary thing) - his level of skill and touch and passing and shooting are world class, and the media/fans absolutely appreciate that. But they also appreciate his strength. Do they only mention his strength because of his skin colour? I don't think so...because it's virtually unique in football and ignoring such a talent would be weird.
Gerrard was praised more in the media because a) he was one of the best midfielders around, b) was English, c) played his whole career for Liverpool, and d) single handedly won the Champions League. Toure played for City, in a team being catapulted to the top by insane amounts of money, and was never that good during his time here. If he'd have been better he'd have been praised for it. Surely no one in their right mind would suggest the extra love Gerrard got was because of race...
Are there racist comments that slip through in commentary? No doubt. It does seem like a larger percentage of black footballers are described as "powerful"... But that's just an impression, I've no idea if it's true or not. Could it be that black footballers playing in England are more generally powerful? I guess someone would have to do actual research - if I've learnt anything in my 35 or so years it's that what you think is usually bollocks! The Pogba argument doesn't ring true to me though - he's held in extremely high regard.
Do you have any evidence for this?You’re missing the point.
Of course Gerrard was praised more and it’s natural that an English player who was the star player of the most popular club in the media would be. The point is that he and Touré were praised for different things despite having very similar strengths and influencing games in the same way.
The idea that Touré was “never that good” in the PL is nonsense too. He was City’s most influential player in the 2011-12 season and his 2013-14 was a better individual season that anything Gerrard ever produced. He was arguably City’s best player during the 2010-2015 period despite Silva and Agüero’s brilliance.
I was searching for some and came across this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...aya-Toure--Manchester-Citys-beast-player.htmlDo you have any evidence for this?
I don't think they I am. I think people read what they want to read into things.You’re missing the point
I think that's a pretty awful description to be honest, and one that again focuses almost entirely on his physicality. 'a strolling defensive bicep' and a 'boulder'. Toure was so technically gifted, I've never seen a white player with his ability have their physicality emphasised so much. It's even more bizarre because those marauding runs where his power was most notable were a pretty infrequent aspect of his game.Barney Ronay in the Guardian captured Yaya best, I think:
"...it offers an insight into Touré himself: an intelligent and eloquent man who on the pitch has begun to look like a surprisingly nuanced and delicately phrased galloping midfield bludgeon.
Pre-Pellegrini Touré seemed to have two main roles at City: his default setting as a kind of strolling defensive bicep; and beyond this the runaway-dustcart mode whereby Touré would be "released" upfield to launch a series of disorientating forward charges, ball trapped beneath his thundering hooves, the attacking midfield equivalent of the massive terrifying round boulder in the Indiana Jones films that keeps looming up out of mine shafts and rumbling down tunnels and generally scattering the natives."
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/dec/06/yaya-toure-manchester-city-notebook
He was not. He was the most dynamic cm in the league for a time and rightly applauded for it.He was always seen as being lazy/lumbering whilst he was in the PL. Later years or not
It’s even simpler than that in many cases.Christ, society is so full of fragile drama queens it's almost intolerable.
"He complimented him but it's not the right compliment!!"
Get over yourselves ffs, it's fecking ridiculous at some point.
Maybe the "big and strong" compliment is just because not many players are as big and strong as some of the players mentionded in this thread, no?
Sometimes it can be just that simple without there being no ill will or (institutional) racism behind it..
Not saying this will be in all cases but I'm willing to bet it's in most.
God, this guy really was the greatest we ever had.
I don’t see much lumbering here, just great technique, quick feet and intelligent play.
But he probably holds off a few players in a few clips, so he must be a ‘beast’ who ‘lumbers’ about.
As long as he had his cakeGod, this guy really was the greatest we ever had.
You're ignoring the first sentence in which Ronay emphasises Yaya's intelligence. And in the same linked article:I think that's a pretty awful description to be honest, and one that again focuses almost entirely on his physicality. 'a strolling defensive bicep' and a 'boulder'. Toure was so technically gifted, I've never seen a white player with his ability have their physicality emphasised so much. It's even more bizarre because those marauding runs where his power was most notable were a pretty infrequent aspect of his game.
What utter bullshitIt’s even simpler than that in many cases.
As a pretty solid rule: Black players are more explosive and have an ability to be more explosive, more often. That’s not controversial, it’s genetics.
As young players come through, athleticism wins out so often. Less explosive players either develop a skill set that sees them valued, or they get left behind.
There are so many examples of big and powerful black players, than there are big and powerful white players.
There are very few examples of small black players in the mould of Modric, Xavi, Scholes, Iniesta, Messi. Not because Blck players have some inherent lack of technical ability. They’re just generally bigger human beings and are not forced to learn those kind of traits from a young age.