The MMA thread

[Raoul]

yeah wrestling is grappling. Still clearly a far better grappler than Olivera. Then you could say Maia, Valentina, Dos Anjos, Kron, Dern, Jones could probably dig up more.

Also did you know that Olivera has tapped more than Connor who I see you referred to as the human tap machine. One being to Kahbib oh and someone else who is a better grappler Nate. Could put that down to being there for 10 years but two were consecutive fights.

For clarity Dustin never really had Kahbib in danger. He never had him in full guard. All Kahbib had to do was rotate to his left and then the Guilotine attempt was never a threat which is exactly what Kahbib did. Had Dustin been able to pull guard then maybe it would have been an issue. He did not however.

The tap machine comment is directly from Khabib. See at the very end.



As for the bit about Dustin nearly submitting Khabib....I'll let this speak for itself.

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[Ladron de redcafe]

Correct - in early 2020 based on their respective body of work during the preceding few years during which the UFC were attempting to organize a fight.

On your analysis of Tony v Khabib - it would depend on when the fight happened. If it was 2015/2016, Khabib was simply not as developed at the time and it would've been a great fight. Had it happened more recently (and with the advantage of hindsight given Tony's recent demise) then Khabib would've had the advantage.

It would have been the same result regardless of when it took place for the reasons I mentioned. Regardless of Khabib's own level of dominance and regardless of how one (in this case you) feel about how 2017 Khabib compares to 2020 Khabib, that doesn't change the fact that Tony would have faced the same issues dealing with Khabib in 2016 that he would have faced 4 years later. As I pointed out, Tony's takedown defense and grappling weren't any better in 2016 than they were in 2020.

 

[Raoul]

It would have been the same result regardless of when it took place for the reasons I mentioned. Regardless of Khabib's own level of dominance and regardless of how one (in this case you) feel about how 2017 Khabib compares to 2020 Khabib, that doesn't change the fact that Tony would have faced the same issues dealing with Khabib in 2016 that he would have faced 4 years later. As I pointed out, Tony's takedown defense and grappling weren't any better in 2016 than they were in 2020.

We can agree to disagree here as well. I think the Tony of 2016/17 was significantly better and could've caused a lot of problems for Khabib. Unfortunately, we will never know since that chapter has been closed.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

The tap machine comment is directly from Khabib. See at the very end.



As for the bit about Dustin nearly submitting Khabib....I'll let this speak for itself.

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Khabib literally gave an interview the day after the fight confirming what many who train were saying while watching UFC 242. He gave his neck to Poirier to gas his arms out. Does that mean that at some point the guillotine was tight? Yes. That's a calculated strategy and Khabib reckoned he could weather the storm and finish Dustin immediately afterwards, and that's exactly what he did. Which was exactly what many said he was doing while the round was unfolding.

 

[Raoul]

Khabib literally gave an interview the day after the fight confirming what many who train were saying while watching UFC 242. He gave his neck to Poirier to gas his arms out. Does that mean that at some point the guillotine was tight? Yes. That's a calculated strategy and Khabib reckoned he could weather the storm and finish Dustin immediately afterwards, and that's exactly what he did. Which was exactly what many said he was doing while the round was unfolding.

I'm just going by what Khabib himself said after the fight. The idea that he wasn't in trouble is contradicted by Khabib himself.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

We can agree to disagree here as well. I think the Tony of 2016/17 was significantly better and could've caused a lot of problems for Khabib. Unfortunately, we will never know since that chapter has been closed.

I don't, and while I've pointed out that Tony would have faced the same issues in 2016 that he would have faced in 2020 due to the holes in his skillset, your statement is based in nothing but conjecture and hope.

The question here isn't whether or by how much 2017 Tony was better than 2020 Tony. It's who's better between Khabib and Tony. And that's the only relevant question. No version of Tony could have threatened Khabib because the latter is simply a significantly superior fighter.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I'm just going by what Khabib himself said after the fight. The idea that he wasn't in trouble is contradicted by Khabib himself.

"The idea that he wasn't in trouble" isn't just something that i didn't say, but irrelevant. The question is how close Khabib was to losing. Rather than respond to a made up quote that you're attributing to people, you might address the statement by Khabib that he gave Dustin the guillotine, and was able to shift when he felt that it was close.

 

[Raoul]

I don't, and while I've pointed out that Tony would have faced the same issues in 2016 that he would have faced in 2020 due to the holes in his skillset, your statement is based in nothing but conjecture and hope.

So basically, its an opinion just like yours. Its all subjective in the end.

The question here isn't whether or by how much 2017 Tony was better than 2020 Tony. It's who's better between Khabib and Tony. And that's the only relevant question. No version of Tony could have threatened Khabib because the latter is simply a significantly superior fighter.

The timing is more than relevant since Khabib wasn't as good back then as he is now, nor Tony as poor as he has been recently.

 

[Raoul]

"The idea that he wasn't in trouble" isn't just something that i didn't say, but irrelevant. The question is how close Khabib was to losing. Rather than respond to a made up quote that you're attributing to people, you might address the statement by Khabib that he gave Dustin the guillotine, and was able to shift when he felt that it was close.

The statement about "giving" Dustin the guillotine was in reference to the 2nd one, not the first one which nearly submitted him.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

So basically, its an opinion just like yours. Its all subjective in the end.



The timing is more than relevant since Khabib wasn't as good back then as he is now, nor Tony as poor as he has been recently.

Interesting that you don't see the irony of posting that first statement, and following it up with the latter. Or the irony of even posting the first statement after repeatedly claiming that there's no point making any statements about who would come out on too until a fight between the two materialises. As I said, you're contradicting yourself in every post.

 

[Raoul]

Interesting that you don't see the irony of posting that first statement, and following it up with the latter. Or the irony of even posting the first statement after repeatedly claiming that there's no point making any statements about who would come out on too until a fight between the two materialises. As I said, you're contradicting yourself in every post.

There's no literally irony or contradiction here at all. We don't know because they never fought and are giving options on what we think would've happened.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

The statement about "giving" Dustin the guillotine was in reference to the 2nd one, not the first one which nearly submitted him.

You're on a windup, surely
You do realize that he was referring to the second guillotine when he said it was close. At no point was Dustin even close to submitting Khabib with the first guillotine. Khabib just swatted his arm away. Now I'm genuinely curious whether you watched the fight, or whether it's been a while and some details are murky.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

There's no literally irony or contradiction here at all. We don't know because they never fought and are giving options on what we think would've happened.

Contradicting yourself and then claiming that you didn't doesn't change the fact that you did just that.

 

[Raoul]

Contradicting yourself and then claiming that you didn't doesn't change the fact that you did just that.

Likewise, repeatedly claiming there is a contradiction when its been repeatedly debunked is probably worse than the idea of a contradiction.

 

[Raoul]

You're on a windup, surely
You do realize that he was referring to the second guillotine when he said it was close. At no point was Dustin even close to submitting Khabib with the first guillotine. Khabib just swatted his arm away. Now I'm genuinely curious whether you watched the fight, or whether it's been a while and some details are murky.

It appears your argument is with Khabib, not me. His words are pretty clear on what happened.

 

[George Owen]

I'm just going by what Khabib himself said after the fight. The idea that he wasn't in trouble is contradicted by Khabib himself.

Probably saying that so more people try it on him.

I said before that fight, that Dustin needs to avoid at all costs to defending takedowns with a guillotine, because there is ZERO chance that a non expert grappler can submit Khabib. His only chance to victory was clipping him standing up.

Then, I said that Justin was gonna be his easiest title defence up today, and it was. Another non grappler with crap cardio.


But when we talk about the proper grapplers (Top wrestlers, sambo fighters and submission artists with decent striking) in the division, then it's a completely different scenario. Chances anything can happen in the ground (or even standing up, because their stand up wont be crippled by the fear of the takedown, like happened to Conor and the others) grow exponentially.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Likewise, repeatedly claiming there is a contradiction when its been repeatedly debunked is probably worse than the idea of a contradiction.

Key point in there is if something is debunked. You haven't debunked anything. In fact, you've sidetracked and digressed whenever I point out that you contradict yourself.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

It appears your argument is with Khabib, not me. His words are pretty clear on what happened.

To me and the rest of the world, but not to you apparently, if you think he was referring to the first guillotine.

 

[Raoul]

Probably saying that so more people try it on him.

I said before that fight, that Dustin needs to avoid at all costs to defending takedowns with a guillotine, because there is ZERO chance that a non expert grappler can submit Khabib. His only chance to victory was clipping him standing up.

Then, I said that Justin was gonna be his easiest title defence up today, and it was. Another non grappler with crap cardio.


But when we talk about the proper grapplers (Top wrestlers, sambo fighters and submission artists with decent striking) in the division, then it's a completely different scenario. Chances anything can happen in the ground grow exponentially.

Agreed. This is why fighters like Ferguson (in his prime) and the current version of Oliveira are so tricky. Literally anything can happen on the ground.

 

[Raoul]

Key point in there is if something is debunked. You haven't debunked anything. In fact, you've sidetracked and digressed whenever I point out that you contradict yourself.

I've explained things repeatedly. You seem to not be interested in accepting it, which is fine.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Agreed. This is why fighters like Ferguson (in his prime) and the current version of Oliveira are so tricky. Literally anything can happen on the ground.

George Owen posts 'there is ZERO chance that a non expert grappler can submit Khabib'.
Raoul's conclusion is " I agree. That's why Ferguson would be tricky for Khabib".

You can't make this stuff up.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I think some people massively overstate how good Khabib was and that makes others think he wasn't as good as he actually was. In reality, Khabib was very good and once he joined AKA, he became great.

Is he unbeatable? I don't think so. But I also don't think any of the current crop or "prime" Tony would beat him.

The most danger Khabib was in was against Poiriers guillotine choke. But even then, I think at that stage in the fight, Khabib was slightly careless and Dustin threw a hail Mary attempt. It's not like he did some calculated master plan to get Khabib in that position. Doubt that would happen if they fought again.

I personally thought Gaethje was going to be his toughest opponent because he is good at striking, hits hard and has a solid wrestling background but we all saw how that went.

The best chance now would be like a prime GSP or Usman. Someone like that. That person doesn't currently exist in 155.

I also think people massively overhype prime Tony. Even his long winning streak didn't make me think he'd beat Khabib. He was losing to Barbosa up until he did an illegal kick, he was massively rocked by Pettis and Groovy Lando. Many of that streak also included wars, which wouldn't happen if Tony was as good as people think.

Jones used to destroy motherfeckers but his last few were close wars. People say he's starting to lose it. Tony has been like recent Jones for his entire prime.

Tony used to have the durability and mental toughness to win. That wouldn't be enough against Khabib.

A good example is the Barboza fights. Tony scraped by him. Khabib made barboza look like he was a naughty child being disciplined by his PE teacher.

Just my two pence there.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I've explained things repeatedly. You seem to not be interested in accepting it, which is fine.

Again, you havent, though. Claiming that you did when you repeatedly digressed doesn't make your claim any less inaccurate. But we can move on, if you're not going to address them.

 

[Raoul]

To me and the rest of the world, but not to you apparently, if you think he was referring to the first guillotine.

"First time it was close. Second time I give him because I feel he lost so much energy, so much power."

This is a direct quote from Khabib.

Now, you were saying ?

 

[George Owen]

Agreed. This is why fighters like Ferguson (in his prime) and the current version of Oliveira are so tricky. Literally anything can happen on the ground.

I edited to add that even standing up, things would be different, because their stand up won't be crippled by the fear of the takedown, like happened to Conor and the others.

 

[Raoul]

Again, you havent, though. Claiming that you did when you repeatedly digressed doesn't make your claim any less inaccurate. But we can move on, if you're not going to address them.

I believe I've made my point. We can move on now.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I think some people massively overstate how good Khabib was and that makes others think he wasn't as good as he actually was. In reality, Khabib was very good and once he joined AKA, he became great.

Is he unbeatable? I don't think so. But I also don't think any of the current crop or "prime" Tony would beat him.

The most danger Khabib was in was against Poiriers guillotine choke. But even then, I think at that stage in the fight, Khabib was slightly careless and Dustin threw a hail Mary attempt. It's not like he did some calculated master plan to get Khabib in that position. Doubt that would happen if they fought again.

I personally thought Gaethje was going to be his toughest opponent because he is good at striking, hits hard and has a solid wrestling background but we all saw how that went.

The best chance now would be like a prime GSP or Usman. Someone like that. That person doesn't currently exist in 155.

I also think people massively overhype prime Tony. Even his long winning streak didn't make me think he'd beat Khabib. He was losing to Barbosa up until he did an illegal kick, he was massively rocked by Pettis and Groovy Lando. Many of that streak also included wars, which wouldn't happen if Tony was as good as people think.

Jones used to destroy motherfeckers but his last few were close wars. People say he's starting to lose it. Tony has been like recent Jones for his entire prime.

Tony used to have the durability and mental toughness to win. That wouldn't be enough against Khabib.

Just my two pence there.

He was getting mounted by Kevin Lee as well. In his "prime", he wasn't nearly as dominant as most elite fighters are. I agree with all this.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

"First time it was close. Second time I give him because I feel he lost so much energy, so much power."

This is a direct quote from Khabib.

Now, you were saying ?

Are you confused? He's refering to the same guillotine. The second one. Khabib gets separation before Dustin locks it again and Khabib turns to his side.

And as I said, he points out that he did it to gas Dustin's arms out.

How can anyone who pretends to have watched the fight possibly misinterpret that and come to the conclusion that Khabib was close to tapping in the first guillotine?

 

[Raoul]

I think some people massively overstate how good Khabib was and that makes others think he wasn't as good as he actually was. In reality, Khabib was very good and once he joined AKA, he became great.

Is he unbeatable? I don't think so. But I also don't think any of the current crop or "prime" Tony would beat him.

The most danger Khabib was in was against Poiriers guillotine choke. But even then, I think at that stage in the fight, Khabib was slightly careless and Dustin threw a hail Mary attempt. It's not like he did some calculated master plan to get Khabib in that position. Doubt that would happen if they fought again.

I personally thought Gaethje was going to be his toughest opponent because he is good at striking, hits hard and has a solid wrestling background but we all saw how that went.

The best chance now would be like a prime GSP or Usman. Someone like that. That person doesn't currently exist in 155.

I also think people massively overhype prime Tony. Even his long winning streak didn't make me think he'd beat Khabib. He was losing to Barbosa up until he did an illegal kick, he was massively rocked by Pettis and Groovy Lando. Many of that streak also included wars, which wouldn't happen if Tony was as good as people think.

Jones used to destroy motherfeckers but his last few were close wars. People say he's starting to lose it. Tony has been like recent Jones for his entire prime.

Tony used to have the durability and mental toughness to win. That wouldn't be enough against Khabib.

Just my two pence there.

I think this is a fair assessment. Khabib got progressively better over time and really climaxed professionally during his last two or three fights. I doubt the GSP fight will happen because GSP is basically too old now and the UFC has had multiple chances to make it and not followed through, so either it was a timing or money issue (or both). I think the pressure for Khabib to come back will not go away, especially as LW has suddenly gone back to being more competitive.

 

[T00lsh3d]

I think some people massively overstate how good Khabib was and that makes others think he wasn't as good as he actually was. In reality, Khabib was very good and once he joined AKA, he became great.

Is he unbeatable? I don't think so. But I also don't think any of the current crop or "prime" Tony would beat him.

The most danger Khabib was in was against Poiriers guillotine choke. But even then, I think at that stage in the fight, Khabib was slightly careless and Dustin threw a hail Mary attempt. It's not like he did some calculated master plan to get Khabib in that position. Doubt that would happen if they fought again.

I personally thought Gaethje was going to be his toughest opponent because he is good at striking, hits hard and has a solid wrestling background but we all saw how that went.

The best chance now would be like a prime GSP or Usman. Someone like that. That person doesn't currently exist in 155.

I also think people massively overhype prime Tony. Even his long winning streak didn't make me think he'd beat Khabib. He was losing to Barbosa up until he did an illegal kick, he was massively rocked by Pettis and Groovy Lando. Many of that streak also included wars, which wouldn't happen if Tony was as good as people think.

Jones used to destroy motherfeckers but his last few were close wars. People say he's starting to lose it. Tony has been like recent Jones for his entire prime.

Tony used to have the durability and mental toughness to win. That wouldn't be enough against Khabib.

A good example is the Barboza fights. Tony scraped by him. Khabib made barboza look like he was a naughty child being disciplined by his PE teacher.

Just my two pence there.

I rewatched the Gaethje fight tonight and although Khabib was amazing I though Gaethje properly shat the bed. He was nowhere near aggressive enough, basically didn’t give himself a chance to win

 

[Raoul]

Are you confused? He's refering to the same guillotine. The second one. Khabib gets separation before Dustin locks it again and Khabib turns to his side.

And as I said, he points out that he did it to gas Dustin's arms out.

How can anyone who pretends to have watched the fight possibly misinterpret that and come to the conclusion that Khabib was close to tapping in the first guillotine?

Its a verbatim quote from Khabib. Take it up with him.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Its a verbatim quote from Khabib. Take it up with him.

And you're failing to assimilate his simple words.
He is saying that the first time in the second guillotine was close. Not that the first guillotine had him in trouble. This isn't remotely complex or difficult to understand.

 

[Raoul]

I rewatched the Gaethje fight tonight and although Khabib was amazing I though Gaethje properly shat the bed. He was nowhere near aggressive enough, basically didn’t give himself a chance to win

I was disappointed with Gaethje's performance, but in the end Khabib by then was in absolute peak form and wasn't going to sail into retirement in anything other than dominant fashion.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

He was getting mounted by Kevin Lee as well. In his "prime", he wasn't nearly as dominant as most elite fighters are. I agree with all this.

I remember that one. Lee had that nasty infection. Ferguson the type of dude to try lick it

I think this is a fair assessment. Khabib got progressively better over time and really climaxed professionally during his last two or three fights. I doubt the GSP fight will happen because GSP is basically too old now and the UFC has had multiple chances to make it and not followed through, so either it was a timing or money issue (or both). I think the pressure for Khabib to come back will not go away, especially as LW has suddenly gone back to being more competitive.

Oh for sure, UFC will never let GSP fight again. I meant that if prime Khabib met prime GSP, that is a fight Khabib could lose.

I wish Khabib would come back just because I loved watching him but it doesn't matter when he retired, there will always be the next guy that people would say "he needs to beat that guy".

Whatever happens/happened, is still a crying shame that we never got Khabib v Tony. That deserved a fight.

I rewatched the Gaethje fight tonight and although Khabib was amazing I though Gaethje properly shat the bed. He was nowhere near aggressive enough, basically didn’t give himself a chance to win

Yeah, agree. Was very disappointing. His whole demeanor was disappointing. He just seemed happy to be there. I'm sure he wanted it bad but he just didn't have the eye of the tiger (excuse the lack of a better term).

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I remember that one. Lee had that nasty infection. Ferguson the type of dude to try lick it


Oh for sure, UFC will never let GSP fight again. I meant that if prime Khabib met prime GSP, that is a fight Khabib could lose.

I wish Khabib would come back just because I loved watching him but it doesn't matter when he retired, there will always be the next guy that people would say "he needs to beat that guy".

Whatever happens/happened, is still a crying shame that we never got Khabib v Tony. That deserved a fight.


Yeah, agree. Was very disappointing. His whole demeanor was disappointing. He just seemed happy to be there. I'm sure he wanted it bad but he just didn't have the eye of the tiger (excuse the lack of a better term).

Dana still harbors a grudge after GSP walked out following the Hendricks fight, and then the retirement after winning the middleweight title against Bisping, so I think you might be right, unfortunately. The last thing Dana would have wanted to do is book another GSP fight for another title and risk the same thing happening.

I think I agree, regarding Gaethje. Both he and Whitman were classy in the aftermath of the fight, but they didn't seem disappointed. It almost had an air of being happy to compete for the title against Khabib and maybe the realization that there's a chasm in abilities or his resignation made it easier to digest, but I still think he looked almost content. And that isn't what you'd like to see from the number one contender who just lost a title fight.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

The tap machine comment is directly from Khabib. See at the very end.



As for the bit about Dustin nearly submitting Khabib....I'll let this speak for itself.

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Ok that isn’t what Kahbib said, he said the first attempt at Guilotine was good, 2nd he gave him because he knew its something Dustin goes for and he knew it would tire him out. hes Not in danger. Didn’t say he was close to going out from what I can see.

 

[Raoul]

Ok that isn’t what Kahbib said, he said the first attempt at Guilotine was good, 2nd he gave him because he knew its something Dustin goes for and he knew it would tire him out. hes Not in danger. Didn’t say he was close to going out from what I can see.

It was all part of the same guillotine. The first movement by Dustin resulted in a tight guillotine (according to Dom Cruz who was calling the fight), which Khabib managed to partially roll out of, only to remain in guillotine. The second time Dustin attempted to re-tighten around Khabib's head, Khabib said he "gave him" because he sensed Dustin's arms had tired from all the pressure exerted during the first attempt. Thus, the first one was "close" (as in, he was concerned he would actually get submitted) and the 2nd one he didn't care about because he knew Dustin's arms were likely gassed which would allow him to escape and turn the tables.

 

[Oggmonster]

I don't think I've ever seen such a long debate over a fight that never actually happened admire the commitment there.

Card was really good. Ferguson looks done for now rt. Unfortunately can see him being one who refuses to admit it and just keep fighting.

Think the LW division is interesting now as any of the top contenders could beat the champ on their best day be interesting to watch.

 

[justboy68]

Just a quick note on the Max - Oliveira fight, while it obviously still counts as a win for Max, that was a bit of a freak occurrence. He broke his damn esophagus of all things while going for a takedown and had to be carried out on a stretcher with an oxygen mask struggling to breathe. That was a scary one at the time. So you wanna be a fighter?!

 

[Luke1995]

Rockhold is claiming top 10 opponents are turning him down

Well maybe because he hasn't fought in two years and hasn't won in about four years.

Plus he took a dig at Weidman's ''feminine shins''