The MMA thread

Randall Flagg

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Although I agree there should be a union for the fighters. The sport is in a far better place now than even a few short years ago

Also making money fights is nothing new in this or boxing. It will always be the case

At least with Conor he has produced enough wins and exciting fights and made them enough money to be able to have some sway

I thought it was a far bigger joke giving Lesner a title shot after 3 pro fights, one of which he lost
 

Raoul

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In fairness I'd argue the traditional UFC you seem to of preferred was full of drugs so don't get why you bring that up. They're trying to improve it now if anything and surely you see it as an improvement there?

Sports evolve, it's hardly just UFC. Lets not pretend the money hasn't also benefited the sport in ways as well. Sure you've got stuff that will piss people off (Conor here for example) but then there's positives to it as well, it's allowed the sport to expand a lot and give fighters who may not of got it a chance to get in to the "big leagues" for lack of a better term.

I think it's hard to just blame White purely. They have someone who generates huge interest whether people like the guy or not. I'd suggest more like watching him than not as he attracts huge numbers every time he fights. What would you do if you were in his position? Kick the guy out the UFC? He did punish him, he took him off the 200 card. HE had to fight again 1 day and did, Dana made the fight with Diaz and people said it was one of the best fights of the year.

You're right about the other stuff, money etc but then that's what they signed up for. Equaly someone like McGregor goes on to earn a fortune and have enough money for the rest of his life and you get annoyed with that. So he can't actually win.

Why wouldn't anyone bring drugs up ? Just because they were used more in the past doesn't mean they still aren't a problem today. Even Rogan, White, and Fertita are on the gear so I'm not entirely sure how seriously the culture of drug use is being taken.
 

Randall Flagg

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Why wouldn't anyone bring drugs up ? Just because they were used more in the past doesn't mean they still aren't a problem today. Even Rogan, White, and Fertita are on the gear so I'm not entirely sure how seriously the culture of drug use is being taken.
Putting USADA in charge of their drugs policy would suggest they take it very seriously

How can't you see that?
 

Manny

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UFE (Ultimate Fighting Entertainment)... :(

I bet if Alvarez wins, there'll be an immediate rematch because Conor...
 

Raoul

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Putting USADA in charge of their drugs policy would suggest they take it very seriously

How can't you see that?
That's obviously a good first step. That now has to be complemented by instilling a culture behind the scenes where drug use is discouraged for reasons other than getting caught by USADA.
 

cyberman

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That's obviously a good first step. That now has to be complemented by instilling a culture behind the scenes where drug use is discouraged for reasons other than getting caught by USADA.
I don't understand what this means.
What other reasons could there be? Don't cheat to win or we'll find you and ban you.
 

Oggmonster

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Why wouldn't anyone bring drugs up ? Just because they were used more in the past doesn't mean they still aren't a problem today. Even Rogan, White, and Fertita are on the gear so I'm not entirely sure how seriously the culture of drug use is being taken.
I dunno if I've got wrong end of the stick or something so apologises if I read what you wrotr wrong.

My point was that you tarred modern UFC with the brush of people using drugs but it was far far worse years ago. They are actively trying to stamp it out now (and funnily enough they got slated for that by some people.) I reckon drugs are a problem in all sports and definitely stil are in MMA but you've got to be fair to the UFC and say they are actually trying to do something about it, the problem won't go away overnight though and people will continue to abuse the system but that's not just a UFC problem.

It's unfortunate because someone will be pissed off at the decisions that are made in UFC really but I do think it's a harder job for someone like Dana White (or Joe Silva etc) than people give them credit for.
 

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I don't understand what this means.
What other reasons could there be? Don't cheat to win or we'll find you and ban you.
It means exactly what it implies. There are organizations where cheating is tackled by publicly flogging the facade that they are taking it seriously (as in with USADA) but then privately continuing to look the other way in terms of the culture that justifies cheating. There are a good number of UFC fighters who are probably still doing steroids and successfully masking it from USADA.
 

cyberman

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It means exactly what it implies. There are organizations where cheating is tackled by publicly flogging the facade that they are taking it seriously (as in with USADA) but then privately continuing to look the other way in terms of the culture that justifies cheating. There are a good number of UFC fighters who are probably still doing steroids and successfully masking it from USADA.
And they will be caught.
UFC are a sports organisation, it's competitive and if you can't compete when off drugs then they need to step off. The UFC can't hold their hands on this.
Also it's not as if the UFC train these fighters from a young age. They come from other organisations where drug use is rampant, competing v roid monkeys to even get their foot into the UFC door.
The Steriod culture is ingrained into the fighters long before they sign with Dana and co.
All the UFC can do is police themselves. The fighters are adults after all.
The UFC employ USADA as to remain impartial in all of this.
 

justboy68

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People underestimate the UFC's role in pushing McGregor to where he is today. It's not as easy as saying 'well other fighters should do more to promote themselves' etc. No other fighter apart from Ronda has had even 10% of the push that McGregor got from the UFC, all the way back to his second or third fight. There were a number of good reasons they threw their weight behind him: wanting to open up the Irish (anyone of Irish heritage) and European markets by building a star, exciting talker and of course exciting fighter. The biggest reason is number 1 though. No American fighter would receive the same support without another angle they could push (Ronda had the alpha woman thing going for her), because there are a million American fighters and sportspeople out there, the public aren't as enthusiastic to get behind them in the same way.

Reminds me of Ricky Hatton a bit, except it's even more pronounced with McGregor because he talks a better game and also Ireland really haven't had a combat fighter to get behind on the global stage in donkey's years. Couple that with the fairytale knockout of Jose Aldo, which really was a 1 in 1000 outcome (to KO with the first punch that way) and his stardom just blew up. He managed to survive the Nate loss without any impact on his drawing capability, suggesting he is probably over the threshold at this point to where he can survive a defeat or two no problem. Casuals know him and will watch him fight even with a few losses here or there now, provided the fights are exciting enough.

However back to the point, if Conor McGregor was really Conor Alvarez from Philadelphia then chances are that the UFC would never have pushed him in the same way, he would have been matched up differently and it potentially could have been a very different story. Even if he would have still climbed to the belt which he could well have done then he'd likely be a much more 'regular' champion. I don't really see evidence that he is helping fighter pay either. Apart from himself and his opponents directly, he hasn't really had any influence on the average salary of UFC fighters, in fact his favourite pass time is to mock fighters for being poor 'bums' who still make nothing and can barely afford to get by.
 

Desert Eagle

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The comparison that should be made isn't MMA to WWE but MMA to boxing. Dana has a long history of shitting on boxing promoters and it's flaws ie; Champs not defensing against the mandatory number one contenders, chasing the money instead of challenging yourself to see who's the best, moving between weight classes to pick up more belts etc. It's the inconsistency that bothers me the most. Aldo was a long time champ yet if he wanted to fight Pettis, he had to give up the belt. Roy nelson need to be buried because he push kicked a ref but people who take PEDs and compete aren't so bad. Ronda gets a division and a huge push marketing wise but Cyborg is treated like crap. The pathetic way they market certain fighters as opposed to others, their long unfair contracts Some champs get instant rematches and some don't. Fans are to blame too cause as soon as they put on a great card and imo 205 might be the best card ever, everything else is forgotten and brushed under the carpet. Luckily the UFC is not the only game in town and if they keep fecking up they will only strengthen their competition.
 

Oggmonster

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People underestimate the UFC's role in pushing McGregor to where he is today. It's not as easy as saying 'well other fighters should do more to promote themselves' etc. No other fighter apart from Ronda has had even 10% of the push that McGregor got from the UFC, all the way back to his second or third fight. There were a number of good reasons they threw their weight behind him: wanting to open up the Irish (anyone of Irish heritage) and European markets by building a star, exciting talker and of course exciting fighter. The biggest reason is number 1 though. No American fighter would receive the same support without another angle they could push (Ronda had the alpha woman thing going for her), because there are a million American fighters and sportspeople out there, the public aren't as enthusiastic to get behind them in the same way.

Reminds me of Ricky Hatton a bit, except it's even more pronounced with McGregor because he talks a better game and also Ireland really haven't had a combat fighter to get behind on the global stage in donkey's years. Couple that with the fairytale knockout of Jose Aldo, which really was a 1 in 1000 outcome (to KO with the first punch that way) and his stardom just blew up. He managed to survive the Nate loss without any impact on his drawing capability, suggesting he is probably over the threshold at this point to where he can survive a defeat or two no problem. Casuals know him and will watch him fight even with a few losses here or there now, provided the fights are exciting enough.

However back to the point, if Conor McGregor was really Conor Alvarez from Philadelphia then chances are that the UFC would never have pushed him in the same way, he would have been matched up differently and it potentially could have been a very different story. Even if he would have still climbed to the belt which he could well have done then he'd likely be a much more 'regular' champion. I don't really see evidence that he is helping fighter pay either. Apart from himself and his opponents directly, he hasn't really had any influence on the average salary of UFC fighters, in fact his favourite pass time is to mock fighters for being poor 'bums' who still make nothing and can barely afford to get by.
I think the first paragraph is massively unfair on him. Sure they probably saw what they had pretty early but he got himself in that position. Watch some of his early press conference or media stuff with the UFC before he made it huge and was still on fight night and even then he's promoting himself and getting his name out there. I'm sure the UFC saw what they had but a lot of it was him. I don't think the main reason is cos he was Irish. Look at Chael Sonnen years ago he was a big name and still is and he's American. I'm not American but whenever I've been I've never seen a country with so much national pride either so if there was a huge American star they would get behind them I reckon, they do it with plenty of average American athletes so why not a legit good one? The UFC would of been stupid to not take advantage of that buzz McGregor created and help further it, they scratch his back he scratches theirs and lets be fair up until now it has worked. I'm sure it's not easy to promote yourself but you've got to give it ago surely. Look at what Nate Diaz did, he was just a gatekeeper really and then got the 2nd biggest pay day in UFC history cos he got his name out there. Maybe people think it is WWE, maybe it's shit for the sport or whatever but if they're not even attempting to get their name out there can you realy blame fans or the UFC for not being overly bothered about them?

I think his stardom took off before Aldo to be honest with the hype and amount of time we had to wait for it. He'd had 4 performance of night bonuses in a row and it felt like a lifetime til the fight finaly happened. I'd agree he got more popular cos of the result as has shown in PPV numbers though but he was a huge name going into that fight.

If he didn't promote himself he may not of got them big fights but the reality is he did do it and got the fights and then took advantage of it. Lets not pretend he's the only one to ever do it. His personality helped make him popular and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, you make the most of what you're given and he has done that. He has his flaws, some of the stuff he said to Nate was disrespectful and he says a lot of shitty things but then it generates interest and hype. I doubt he really cares massively about fighter pay either really and I don't think many have proclaimed he does? People fighting him do get more money though and I'm sure those on PPV points for 205 like Woodley are loving having McGregor on the card cos they will make millions off it. If they're unhappy with their salary then that's their problem not his really, go ask the boss for more money. If I want a pay rise in work I don't ask my colleagues to ask for me.
 

Manny

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I agree @justboy68

I remember watching a card and McGregor had his own promo on it, and I didn't have a clue who he was. The UFC was also putting him up in some really expensive hotels early in his career and pointing all the cameras at him, I guess to encourage him to boast and give the mainstream the perception that all fighters are being paid well.

He definately had a huge push by the UFC, an unfair one when compared to other fighters, but he had backed it up until Diaz 1.
 

MoneyMay

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If Conor McGregor goes on to win the LW title and becomes the first fighter to hold two belts, it would be a farce because he will have taken 3 fights without defending his FW title once. Aldo also made a good point... that he had to vacate his FW belt in order to fight Pettis at 155, whereas McGregor moved straight up without having to vacate his title. I think Dana is milking the cow, and Aldo has every right to be pissed, but it's business and they've clearly gone for viewership over merit...

Fwiw:
When I wanted to fight with Anthony Pettis way back then in the lightweight division, Pettis' manager came to us, everything worked out, we went to Dana and he said: "No, if you want to take this fight you need to leave the featherweight division, give up your belt, and then you can fight Pettis in the lightweight division, and after that if you lose or win, you can make a fight to get your featherweight belt back." I didn't think it was fair back then and I don't think it is, I said "Okay, I will stay in my division because I know I am the champion, I am trying to do something good for you, the promotion, for everyone, and you want me to give up something mine..." and now something totally different is happening.
 

Randall Flagg

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People underestimate the UFC's role in pushing McGregor to where he is today. It's not as easy as saying 'well other fighters should do more to promote themselves' etc. No other fighter apart from Ronda has had even 10% of the push that McGregor got from the UFC, all the way back to his second or third fight. There were a number of good reasons they threw their weight behind him: wanting to open up the Irish (anyone of Irish heritage) and European markets by building a star, exciting talker and of course exciting fighter. The biggest reason is number 1 though. No American fighter would receive the same support without another angle they could push (Ronda had the alpha woman thing going for her), because there are a million American fighters and sportspeople out there, the public aren't as enthusiastic to get behind them in the same way.

Reminds me of Ricky Hatton a bit, except it's even more pronounced with McGregor because he talks a better game and also Ireland really haven't had a combat fighter to get behind on the global stage in donkey's years. Couple that with the fairytale knockout of Jose Aldo, which really was a 1 in 1000 outcome (to KO with the first punch that way) and his stardom just blew up. He managed to survive the Nate loss without any impact on his drawing capability, suggesting he is probably over the threshold at this point to where he can survive a defeat or two no problem. Casuals know him and will watch him fight even with a few losses here or there now, provided the fights are exciting enough.

However back to the point, if Conor McGregor was really Conor Alvarez from Philadelphia then chances are that the UFC would never have pushed him in the same way, he would have been matched up differently and it potentially could have been a very different story. Even if he would have still climbed to the belt which he could well have done then he'd likely be a much more 'regular' champion. I don't really see evidence that he is helping fighter pay either. Apart from himself and his opponents directly, he hasn't really had any influence on the average salary of UFC fighters, in fact his favourite pass time is to mock fighters for being poor 'bums' who still make nothing and can barely afford to get by.
This is mostly true

Was kind of a perfect storm between the UFC marketing dept and Conor jumping on board. Also helps that he is an exciting fighter who backs up his persona by always wanting to fight and not being afraid to take hard fights either.

But it's worked. You can't begrudge the company or McGregor. He has got a lot of casuals watching the he sport

Look at this thread whenever he fights, and a whole load of people post in here that never have any interest

Like him or not, but he has done far more good than harm for the sport. But I don't doubt, when it's all over his fall will most likely be as quick as his rise.
 

justboy68

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I think the first paragraph is massively unfair on him. Sure they probably saw what they had pretty early but he got himself in that position. Watch some of his early press conference or media stuff with the UFC before he made it huge and was still on fight night and even then he's promoting himself and getting his name out there. I'm sure the UFC saw what they had but a lot of it was him. I don't think the main reason is cos he was Irish. Look at Chael Sonnen years ago he was a big name and still is and he's American. I'm not American but whenever I've been I've never seen a country with so much national pride either so if there was a huge American star they would get behind them I reckon, they do it with plenty of average American athletes so why not a legit good one? The UFC would of been stupid to not take advantage of that buzz McGregor created and help further it, they scratch his back he scratches theirs and lets be fair up until now it has worked. I'm sure it's not easy to promote yourself but you've got to give it ago surely. Look at what Nate Diaz did, he was just a gatekeeper really and then got the 2nd biggest pay day in UFC history cos he got his name out there. Maybe people think it is WWE, maybe it's shit for the sport or whatever but if they're not even attempting to get their name out there can you realy blame fans or the UFC for not being overly bothered about them?

I think his stardom took off before Aldo to be honest with the hype and amount of time we had to wait for it. He'd had 4 performance of night bonuses in a row and it felt like a lifetime til the fight finaly happened. I'd agree he got more popular cos of the result as has shown in PPV numbers though but he was a huge name going into that fight.

If he didn't promote himself he may not of got them big fights but the reality is he did do it and got the fights and then took advantage of it. Lets not pretend he's the only one to ever do it. His personality helped make him popular and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, you make the most of what you're given and he has done that. He has his flaws, some of the stuff he said to Nate was disrespectful and he says a lot of shitty things but then it generates interest and hype. I doubt he really cares massively about fighter pay either really and I don't think many have proclaimed he does? People fighting him do get more money though and I'm sure those on PPV points for 205 like Woodley are loving having McGregor on the card cos they will make millions off it. If they're unhappy with their salary then that's their problem not his really, go ask the boss for more money. If I want a pay rise in work I don't ask my colleagues to ask for me.

I'm not trying to play down his side of things, he couldn't really have done much more, just pointing out that it absolutely takes two to tango, and without the UFC machine behind him he wouldn't have anywhere near the same reach. My point being that I think too many people ignore that when talking about how other fighters should promote themselves better. Sonnen worked harder to promote himself than anyone and he was quite a genius at it, there was also less fighters around at that time and public interest in MMA was hitting new heights, but he still didn't get close to McGregor levels because his background just didn't have the same advantages in terms of demographic. That Irish, but particularly, Irish-American market was just begging to be tapped into when McGregor arrived on the scene. As a result they were fully behind him from the get go, cutting promos after one fight against a no name bantamweight, then after his second fight (UD against Holloway) they dedicated a whole fight pass documentary series to him, as well as huge promotion and build up for the comeback fight, headlining in Dublin against Brandao. Headlining a show after a win against a bloated bantamweight and a decision against a 22 year old kid who people still didn't know at that time. That doesn't happen without a serious marketing angle and push.

Diaz had just enough of a cult following in MMA to get the call to be a late replacement for 196, he wasn't really doing anything different to promote himself than what had him on a 12k+12k contract. Just had a good performance against Michael Johnson, called him out somewhat hopefully as McGregor had already been booked to fight RDA and then due to injury and timing he got the call at the last minute. Then we saw what the UFC marketing machine can do once it gets behind you. After the win all of a sudden Diaz went from being a lightweight gatekeeper on a 12k to show contract, to being a huge welterweight (apparently) and one of the pound for pound top fighters. Now he's probably only behind Conor and Ronda in terms of popularity.

If you look at a guy like Tony Ferguson, he's kinda similar to Mcgregor in many ways. He is an exciting fighter, who is unashamedly cocky, even does the wearing shades indoors shtick and says similarly outlandish stuff in interviews and press conferences, but never once received a lick of promotion from the UFC. Now he's 11-1 in the UFC and on an 8 fight win streak and just got passed over along with others for the title shot because the average Joe still hasn't ever heard of him. That's largely due to receiving no backing from the UFC, which in turn is largely due to not really having a good demographic to tap into. For your shit talk to get you places you need to have a loyal fanbase to soak it all up and help it grow. Otherwise you're just left looking like an arsehole pretty much.

You heard Mendes after his fight against McGregor, he was in awe of the Irish support and said he wished that Americans could get behind their athletes in the same way. But it's too big a country, with too many fighters and sports people in general to get support purely for nationalistic reasons. It's not really a matter of general American national pride, they can take pride in having many great athletes rather than one great hope. That's why American fighters are very often promoted as something other than American. Cain and Mexico being a perfect example, he couldn't even speak Spanish when they were trying to bill him as the great Mexican hope in MMA. Stipe has the loyal Cleveland following which is a good angle for him as we all saw the amazing support he got at UFC 203. However he had to get the belt before reaping those rewards, he wasn't receiving any love beforehand.

Ronda was/is all about girl power and being an olympian, which combined with some amazing to watch performances where she'd finish girls in seconds, particularly the fairytale submission of Cat Zingano in her first PPV headliner, to really skyrocket her. What is clear in both Ronda and Conor's case is that conditions had to be right in many areas to make them such stars and that includes a number of factors outside of their control and usually a 'hollywood' moment or two that was hugely unlikely to happen. The Cat Zingano submission was pretty much a freak occurrence in the same way the Aldo flash KO was. You are right that McGregor had already become a star before that but I think it's fair to say that moment and winning the belt catapulted him even further.

Once again I'm not trying to blame or take away from Conor. He absolutely worked hard to promote himself and then performed amazingly in the cage to back it up, but it's just interesting to look at how it all comes together. I mean we've seen how the UFC have tried to do the same with Sage Northcutt, look at the crazy push he was getting, but he wasn't ready for it and couldn't back it up. 99% of fighters aren't getting that McGregor/Rousey/Northcutt push. McGregor and Rousey managing to run so far with it is all credit to them.
 
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justboy68

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This is mostly true

Was kind of a perfect storm between the UFC marketing dept and Conor jumping on board. Also helps that he is an exciting fighter who backs up his persona by always wanting to fight and not being afraid to take hard fights either.

But it's worked. You can't begrudge the company or McGregor. He has got a lot of casuals watching the he sport

Look at this thread whenever he fights, and a whole load of people post in here that never have any interest

Like him or not, but he has done far more good than harm for the sport. But I don't doubt, when it's all over his fall will most likely be as quick as his rise.
Well in MMA no one tends to get out unscathed, so even when that fall does come he's created quite a legacy in the sport for himself. I can't imagine he'll be the type to stick around too long if he appears to be on a slide, so if he gets out without hanging around too long and without throwing all of his money away then he'll have done well for himself when all is said and done.

He's certainly been good for the growth of the sport and helping it become more accepted amongst the mainstream overall, granted there are plenty of opinion pieces out there where misinformation continues to be spread and it still gets heavily criticised etc but in general, between him and Ronda people have a better idea of what MMA is all about. There are certain aspects which from a more 'hardcore' fan perspective you can definitely make a case for his input causing more harm though. We'd all like to see a more legitimized matchmaking and ranking structure I think and Conor is driving that in an opposite direction more than ever. Sure we all like to see fun fights and even freak show fights sometimes, but now people are getting the idea that it's the only good way to get paid and we have more circus acts and people calling for weird fights than ever before. Every Tom, Dick and Harry is at it. It's particularly having an impact at the Champion level where many champions are delaying or refusing to fight top contenders in search of a 'money' fight or something that suits them better. Overall it's not a route many of us want to see the matchmaking process go down, I think we'd rather fighters just got a fairer share of the pie from the UFC and in turn the UFC would match up the fighters in a logical way. Best vs the best. With super fights or fun fights sprinkled on top from time to time.

You look at a guy like Lawler, he just fought the guy who was put in front of him, had some unbelievable wars and we all loved it. Not everyone should try to be a Conor McGregor type like so many are doing right now.
 

cyberman

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The UFC have been pleading with their fighters to promote themselves for years, all the way back to GSP not being impressed with your performance.
Nobody listened or tried, Chael apart they all considered themselves fighters and didn't lift a finger to rise above their station.
Conor did and look at him now. If you showcase personality you will have all the exposure you need. They have Conor up there in these all emcompassing press conferences to try and share the shine yet other fighters still struggle.
It's not just Conor, they push all their fighters to every news outlet in America to promote every event, it's not as if they hold anybody back.
Conor and Chael are special because they are good at it. They didn't try to be anyone else, now you have Ferguson etc becoming Conor light and it's embarassing.
Also if you actually look at the rosters it isn't that strong right now.
155 you have a champion who won the belt after 3 fights ( 2 decisions)
The number 1 contender fought once in over two years v a can.
Ferguson is a contender.
RDA got smoked.
Conor beat Nate
Heck Cerrone is in there and he's at 170 right now.
It's not this long list and there is no buzz around the division, the title was defended on a fight night ffs.
Most of the divisios are like this. We actually need more of these fights or we're going to see the same fights over and over again over the next few years. The turnover is just so slow.
 

George Owen

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The media are finally pulling their thumbs out on the Conor issue....

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/u...r-lightweight-title-at-ufc-205-052623642.html
Good. As much as i like Conor and his fights, i prefer a UFC ran like a legitimate sport, and not the WWE.

Hopefully the press making Dana look like a puppet of Conor and the new owners, change the tides a bit. But no wonder Silva called it a day.

Aldo also i hope can get out of his contract and sign with Bellator.
 

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Um ok, not really sure why that has much to do with anything really.

Boxing is insanely specialist in that a seasoned Boxer likely isn't going to walk into MMA and win, whereas, whether you see as a sport of not, seasoned wrestlers with amateur backgrounds have walked into the MMA and won, and hell gone even further. I'm talking people of elite level here, I know Holly Holm was a boxer and a few others probably were, but it's a different level.

Now both boxers and mixed martial artists go into the WWE world, but to actually perform, they tend to come more from the MMA side than Boxing, see Shamrock or Del Rio who were by all accounts decent performers, when Boxers come in, they box in the WWE world in a gimmick match pretty much.

I was barely talking about how matches are made, just why UFC gets WWE connections an awful lot, rather than boxing. Match making in all three comes down to politics, ego and money. Merit barely matters, until that merit wins over a majority fanbase which well leads into the money.
Bullshit. You're confusing competitive sport with a childish soap opera. In competitive sports the biggest fights go to the best exponents of that sport. People nit-pick about specific matches but merit always matters. Insane that you think this is comparable with the made up storylines in what is essentially a serialised drama, written for kids.

As for the first bit of your post, competitive amateur wrestling is a sport. WWE actors who have a background in this might do ok in MMA but this has feck all to with anything they learned or practiced while aping for the cameras, all lathered in fake tan and make-up. There are no transferable skills whatsoever.
 

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I'm not trying to play down his side of things, he couldn't really have done much more, just pointing out that it absolutely takes two to tango, and without the UFC machine behind him he wouldn't have anywhere near the same reach. My point being that I think too many people ignore that when talking about how other fighters should promote themselves better. Sonnen worked harder to promote himself than anyone and he was quite a genius at it, there was also less fighters around at that time and public interest in MMA was hitting new heights, but he still didn't get close to McGregor levels because his background just didn't have the same advantages in terms of demographic. That Irish, but particularly, Irish-American market was just begging to be tapped into when McGregor arrived on the scene. As a result they were fully behind him from the get go, cutting promos after one fight against a no name bantamweight, then after his second fight (UD against Holloway) they dedicated a whole fight pass documentary series to him, as well as huge promotion and build up for the comeback fight, headlining in Dublin against Brandao. Headlining a show after a win against a bloated bantamweight and a decision against a 22 year old kid who people still didn't know at that time. That doesn't happen without a serious marketing angle and push.

Diaz had just enough of a cult following in MMA to get the call to be a late replacement for 196, he wasn't really doing anything different to promote himself than what had him on a 12k+12k contract. Just had a good performance against Michael Johnson, called him out somewhat hopefully as McGregor had already been booked to fight RDA and then due to injury and timing he got the call at the last minute. Then we saw what the UFC marketing machine can do once it gets behind you. After the win all of a sudden Diaz went from being a lightweight gatekeeper on a 12k to show contract, to being a huge welterweight (apparently) and one of the pound for pound top fighters. Now he's probably only behind Conor and Ronda in terms of popularity.

If you look at a guy like Tony Ferguson, he's kinda similar to Mcgregor in many ways. He is an exciting fighter, who is unashamedly cocky, even does the wearing shades indoors shtick and says similarly outlandish stuff in interviews and press conferences, but never once received a lick of promotion from the UFC. Now he's 11-1 in the UFC and on an 8 fight win streak and just got passed over along with others for the title shot because the average Joe still hasn't ever heard of him. That's largely due to receiving no backing from the UFC, which in turn is largely due to not really having a good demographic to tap into. For your shit talk to get you places you need to have a loyal fanbase to soak it all up and help it grow. Otherwise you're just left looking like an arsehole pretty much.

You heard Mendes after his fight against McGregor, he was in awe of the Irish support and said he wished that Americans could get behind their athletes in the same way. But it's too big a country, with too many fighters and sports people in general to get support purely for nationalistic reasons. It's not really a matter of general American national pride, they can take pride in having many great athletes rather than one great hope. That's why American fighters are very often promoted as something other than American. Cain and Mexico being a perfect example, he couldn't even speak Spanish when they were trying to bill him as the great Mexican hope in MMA. Stipe has the loyal Cleveland following which is a good angle for him as we all saw the amazing support he got at UFC 203. However he had to get the belt before reaping those rewards, he wasn't receiving any love beforehand.

Ronda was/is all about girl power and being an olympian, which combined with some amazing to watch performances where she'd finish girls in seconds, particularly the fairytale submission of Cat Zingano in her first PPV headliner, to really skyrocket her. What is clear in both Ronda and Conor's case is that conditions had to be right in many areas to make them such stars and that includes a number of factors outside of their control and usually a 'hollywood' moment or two that was hugely unlikely to happen. The Cat Zingano submission was pretty much a freak occurrence in the same way the Aldo flash KO was. You are right that McGregor had already become a star before that but I think it's fair to say that moment and winning the belt catapulted him even further.

Once again I'm not trying to blame or take away from Conor. He absolutely worked hard to promote himself and then performed amazingly in the cage to back it up, but it's just interesting to look at how it all comes together. I mean we've seen how the UFC have tried to do the same with Sage Northcutt, look at the crazy push he was getting, but he wasn't ready for it and couldn't back it up. 99% of fighters aren't getting that McGregor/Rousey/Northcutt push. McGregor and Rousey managing to run so far with it is all credit to them.
It definitely takes 2 to tango but it took 1 to get in the position where he is (or was) with the UFC and that was Conor. He had personality in his Cage Warriors days, his early UFC days he went out his way to stand out and it worked. There's videos of him before he was big on stage with the likes of Bisping, Sonnen, Jon Jones etc and he's the stand out person on stage. Yeah the UFC backed him but who can blame them? They finally had someone who could take, get people to watch him, was exciting when he fought, finishes fights consistently. They took advantage of what they had granted but then I'm sure they've tried it in the past with others and they haven't played ball with the UFC, fair fecks to McGregor for doing so. With regards to Sonnen etc they were around in a different time as well, McGregor (and other current fighters) are at the peak of technology where it is far easier to get exposure.

Diaz did do something different though. As he said himself McGregor was on stage with loads of other fighters giving them all shit and no one said anything. They all just took a load of abuse and listened to it, there was people on that stage who probably could of got a fight with McGregor out of that, Diaz took advtange of it and is now a multi millionaire as a result.

Can you REALLY blame the UFC for not pushing Ferguson more? Come on, it's modern day marketing. He was an absolute dick on TUF talking about some guy not being able to look after his kids, he really doesn't have the same look as McGregor either except wearing glasses inside, he's an odd looking person to put it nicely. I seriously doubt it's just nationality that hasn't propelled him to where he is. And I'd admit it's hugely shallow of the UFC to not market him on looks but every sport and every business in the world does that. He was also meant to fight Khabib in a title eliminator but got injured and is now fighting RDA in a fight that could get him close to the title.

It's a fair point re the where they're from bit as well and I'd agree but I think it's slightly unfair to use Miocic or most heavyweights as a brush to tar COnor/UFC with, the division is such a lottery that it would be hard to get behind a fighter and for them to gain popularity. They all beat each other pretty regularly.

I'd personally think if a fighter did do something they'd probably get that push, Diaz is a prime example of it. Someone like Aldo didn't even bother to speak English (although apparently he can speak some he just chooses not to.) In an ideal world they'd all be stars on huge money but it doesn't work like that. You've got to have a bit about yourself to break out and a story might help a bit but you could easily make a narrative for anyone if you wanted, not just McGregor. It's about who fans react to and choose to watch, you can't consistently blame the UFC for taking advtange of that, especially when they're appealing to their audience, if I don't like it or you don't like it but most people do they probably don't care really.

Before Conor vs. Alvarez got announced people said that the card wasn't that great, when it did it becamse the best card ever and is predicted to be the biggest ever UFC PPV, that shows his star power and he deserves a ton of credit for it, not getting shit on cos Aldo threw his toys out the pram.

Good. As much as i like Conor and his fights, i prefer a UFC ran like a legitimate sport, and not the WWE.

Hopefully the press making Dana look like a puppet of Conor and the new owners, change the tides a bit. But no wonder Silva called it a day.

Aldo also i hope can get out of his contract and sign with Bellator.
Didn't SIlva call it a day cos he got a huge payout when they got bought and wanted to retire to be with his family?
 

Vialli_92

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Aldo was always saying "anytime any place" to Conor and now he retires because he's not getting his Mcgreggor shot when he turned down a rematch I believe. I know it was only 2 weeks notice but don't go around acting like a hard man and talking the talk when it comes to walking the walk you run in the other direction as far away as possible.

Aldo is nothing but a baby and if Conor is getting special treatment then maybe Conor is doing something right and he isn't. I don't blame UFC for backing Mgreggor and pumping him up as I dont think anyone could have imagined just how big Conor would be and the huge fan base he has made for himself.

I never had an interest in UFC until Conor came along and I seen him trash talking and knocking everybody out.
 

Cina

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Tried to get tickets through Fight Club pre-sale yesterday but the cheapest that came up were the $606 which are just a bit too much. If I can nab the $450 ones I'm definitely going.
 

Raoul

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Aldo was always saying "anytime any place" to Conor and now he retires because he's not getting his Mcgreggor shot when he turned down a rematch I believe. I know it was only 2 weeks notice but don't go around acting like a hard man and talking the talk when it comes to walking the walk you run in the other direction as far away as possible.

Aldo is nothing but a baby and if Conor is getting special treatment then maybe Conor is doing something right and he isn't. I don't blame UFC for backing Mgreggor and pumping him up as I dont think anyone could have imagined just how big Conor would be and the huge fan base he has made for himself.

I never had an interest in UFC until Conor came along and I seen him trash talking and knocking everybody out.
Location: Ireland

Cool
 

Cina

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blow in fan

pah
it's true, i wouldn't be mad into UFC, i don't regulary stay up to watch it - if i'm tired i'll happily go to bed and just watch highlights the next day. i'm not really arsed with the in betweens or whatever, i like but don't love mc gregor, but... i'm a complete prick who has a lot more money than the rest of my friends, some of whom are massively into ufc.. and maybe, just maybe, if i can snag a ticket, and send them pics of the ticket, and go to new york and msg and take pics of me there not giving a shit ... well .. that'll do.
 

justboy68

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Aldo is one of the greatest fighters of all time. Maybe the worst thing to come along with McGregor is so many people shitting on one of the legends of the sport as a result. 'Nothing but a baby' what a ridiculous thing to say about a fighter who was a champion for donkeys years and had a 10 year/18 fight win streak. He's totally justified in being annoyed at not getting a rematch after winning the interim belt with a masterclass performance against Edgar. As said above he was a long time champion and one of the greatest in the sport, yet hasn't been offered a chance at redemption despite being promised it with the interim title fight. Meanwhile Conor instantly got his pointless rematch against Diaz no problem all while holding up the division. Conor has won 3 belts in 2 organisations and never had a single title defence :houllier:
 
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Oggmonster

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Aldo is one of the greatest fighters of all time. Maybe the worst thing to come along with McGregor is so many people shitting on one of the legends of the sport as a result. 'Nothing but a baby' what a ridiculous thing to say about a fighter who was a champion for donkeys years and had a 10 year, 18 fight win streak.
I agree it's an over reaction to call him a baby but he has sulked big time really. I like Aldo (I love this apparent implied notion by some in here that you either love McGregor and hate Aldo or vice versa, or if you like McGregor you're a clueless idiot or a "casual" fan) but I still don't think he'll retire and I think he's doing it all to put himself in a better position and fair fecks I hope it works.

For what it's worth here's a pretty reasoned response from Max Holloway, long but worth a read:

http://www.mmafighting.com/2016/9/2...holloway-goes-off-on-jose-aldo-conor-mcgregor

It's hardly just Conor who's fecking people around, he's right what he says about Aldo there.
 

Dominos

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Upon Conor winning the FW belt, you had Aldo as the only previous UFC champion of the division, 10 years/18 fights undefeated, waiting for a rematch. You had former LW champion Frankie Edgar on a 5 fight win streak against top contenders, and Max Holloway on a 8 fight win streak.

It will soon be a year and none of them will have even come close to actually getting a title shot. The interim belt is a joke and it was effectively a #1 contenders match, even though as #1 contender they will probably never get their shot at the actual belt because the champion refuses to defend it. All this while the champion is fit, healthy, and actively fighting. Please someone tell me how this is fair? They're screwing over fighter's careers and livelihoods.
 
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Raoul

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Aldo is one of the greatest fighters of all time. Maybe the worst thing to come along with McGregor is so many people shitting on one of the legends of the sport as a result. 'Nothing but a baby' what a ridiculous thing to say about a fighter who was a champion for donkeys years and had a 10 year/18 fight win streak. He's totally justified in being annoyed at not getting a rematch after winning the interim belt with a masterclass performance against Edgar. As said above he was a long time champion and one of the greatest in the sport, yet hasn't been offered a chance at redemption despite being promised it with the interim title fight. Meanwhile Conor instantly got his pointless rematch against Diaz no problem all while holding up the division. Conor has won 3 belts in 2 organisations and never had a single title defence :houllier:
In fairness the 13 second knockout hasn't helped Aldo's cause for a rematch. That said, you are spot on in that there seem to be a good number of Johnny come lately UFC fans who have apparently hopped on board during the Conor hype train who are casually dismissive of Aldo because it doesn't fit into Conor's current plans for multi-divisional world domination. Aldo is one of the greatest MMA fighters ever and deserves a lot more respect than he is getting from both the Conor-bots as well as White. This is why an immediate rematch should've been arranged immediately after the last fight.
 

Oggmonster

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In fairness the 13 second knockout hasn't helped Aldo's cause for a rematch. That said, you are spot on in that there seem to be a good number of Johnny come lately UFC fans who have apparently hopped on board during the Conor hype train who are casually dismissive of Aldo because it doesn't fit into Conor's current plans for multi-divisional world domination. Aldo is one of the greatest MMA fighters ever and deserves a lot more respect than he is getting from both the Conor-bots as well as White. This is why an immediate rematch should've been arranged immediately after the last fight.
Johnny come lately = someone who has a different opinion to you?

I like Aldo but I'm not hugely up in arms about a rematch in all honesty. If it happens it happens and it'd be a shame if he retired but life goes on.

Your johnny come lately nonsense is hugely patronising as well. You complained before fighters don't get paid enough, more fans means more revenue which should mean more money for the fighters....so you're not happy when fighters don't get paid then the sport grows and with that comes the potential for more money and exposure and you're not happy then either? Doesn't make much sense.

What's wrong with people getting on to a hype train or joining the sport late anyway? So what if they're just McGregor fans there's nothing wrong with that, so what if they take the piss of Aldo, is it really the end of the world? Not everything has to be deadly serious all the time, people take the piss or slag Rooney every week but he's on course to be United's top ever scorer yet no one really bats an eye lid at that.
 

Raoul

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Johnny come lately = someone who has a different opinion to you?

I like Aldo but I'm not hugely up in arms about a rematch in all honesty. If it happens it happens and it'd be a shame if he retired but life goes on.

Your johnny come lately nonsense is hugely patronising as well. You complained before fighters don't get paid enough, more fans means more revenue which should mean more money for the fighters....so you're not happy when fighters don't get paid then the sport grows and with that comes the potential for more money and exposure and you're not happy then either? Doesn't make much sense.

What's wrong with people getting on to a hype train or joining the sport late anyway? So what if they're just McGregor fans there's nothing wrong with that, so what if they take the piss of Aldo, is it really the end of the world? Not everything has to be deadly serious all the time, people take the piss or slag Rooney every week but he's on course to be United's top ever scorer yet no one really bats an eye lid at that.
As in, people who didn't follow MMA much until McGregor showed up a couple of years ago...as opposed to people who have been watching for over a decade or more. Its not a particularly difficult to grasp or objectionable concept.
 

Oggmonster

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As in, people who didn't follow MMA much until McGregor showed up a couple of years ago...as opposed to people who have been watching for over a decade or more. Its not a particularly difficult to grasp or objectionable concept.
But again whats wrong with that? Sure some of them will spout bollocks but so will older fans of the sport. Some of my mates only got into it cos of McGregor and now take an interest in the sport and other fighters as well. Sure they're biased to McGregor but that's only natural really.

Fair enough you like Aldo and are disappointed for the guy but it seems a bit unnecessary to take digs at other fans for it.
 

Manny

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In fairness the 13 second knockout hasn't helped Aldo's cause for a rematch. That said, you are spot on in that there seem to be a good number of Johnny come lately UFC fans who have apparently hopped on board during the Conor hype train who are casually dismissive of Aldo because it doesn't fit into Conor's current plans for multi-divisional world domination. Aldo is one of the greatest MMA fighters ever and deserves a lot more respect than he is getting from both the Conor-bots as well as White. This is why an immediate rematch should've been arranged immediately after the last fight.
Bang on. The integrity of the matchmaking has fallen through the floor recently but the Conor fans either don't know any better or are happy to blindly hang on every word Conor says as he holds up an entire division. They're quite happy to see challengers at 145 take one another out, as long as Conor gets to keep his belt.

Its embarrassing and its detrimental to the sport.
 

Oggmonster

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Bang on. The integrity of the matchmaking has fallen through the floor recently but the Conor fans either don't know any better or are happy to blindly hang on every word Conor says as he holds up an entire division. They're quite happy to see challengers at 145 take one another out, as long as Conor gets to keep his belt.

Its embarrassing and its detrimental to the sport.
Some say bang on, others would say it's pretty patronising really. Again, why does it matter if someone only liked the sport after McGregor? Why does it matter if they only like the sport cos of McGregor? If he got 1million fans to watch and then 500,000 left when he does surely it makes it better for the other fighters and the sport long term? Maybe, just maybe, people don't take MMA as serious as you do. Maybe they like it for the entertainment value and find him entertaining and aren't that bothered about other fighters. Is that REALLY that much of a problem? It doesn't particularly bother me people only come to watch McGregor, as said he would have got people into the sport who will now watch stuff he's not involved in so surely it's a good thing long term? The shit some people give to fans of McGregor or "johnny come latelys" as they're so patronisingly called is pathetic to be honest. Let people enjoy something and have fun watching without taking a moral high ground.

Why is it embarrassing to the sport as a whole? There's plenty of other organisations except the UFC. Who knows as well long term it might be good for the sport he has got people interested in it whether you care to admit it or not. In turn it may bring in more viewers long term, it may increase fighter pay and benefits, it may mean people train MMA more and get in to the sport cos of him. IS that a bad thing long term? I don't think so but only time will tell if he's right.

If you've got a huge problem with it surely it's time you took a stand other ways? Don't watch any McGregor related stuff and that would get your message across. There's no point complaining then watching the event he's involved in.