The RedCafe Boxing Thread

[simonhch]

AJ has a worried look on his face in most of his recent pre-match appearances. I’m not convinced he even believes in himself anymore.

Sorry to pick your post out amongst all the pre-fight predictions, but it did give me a chuckle at the time. I had just watch a replay of his Wallin fight and AJ looked the most composed and focused he has in a long time. Really putting his weight through his shots and hitting fast and hard. He looked dynamite to be honest, in a controlled way. So if anything I was expecting to see that version of AJ tonight, not a man who lacked belief.

AJ takes a lot of shit from people, but he’s always sought out the toughest fights in the division he properly could, even if there was a safer route. He needs to box Fury, and I hope it happens. On current form he wins that. But boxing is a funny old sport and the Fury we saw in the last fight isn’t the Fury I am convinced we’ll see against Usyk or AJ.

Say what you want about the man, but AJ’s taken his hits and he’s worked his way back into contention again. He probably has the best CV in the HW division. No one else had fought as many top ten fighters as him. And aside from Usyk, he’s beaten everyone he’s fought at some point. Contrast that to Wilder for example, who has lost to every top fighter he’s come up against; except Ortiz, who was already 40ish and was in huge trouble against until he got that late knockout.

 

[SilentWitness]

New. I think. He didn't have that speed or smoothness before.

I mean in terms of brutalness. He hasn't had that edge for a while and he brought it tonight.

 

[Rams]

N gone now? He lacks basic boxing skills at this level, defensively he’s way off. Which is to be expected to be fair. AJ looks sharp, fearless and hungry again, but he wasn’t tested tonight. Lets get Fury v AJ on, and put the winner against Itauma..

 

[Dan_F]

How do you prepare tactically for a fight when someone has never fought in that sport?

Ngannou was really, really poor tonight, left himself open all night for that straight right.

I don't think the AJ/Fury fight ever happens. I think Fury will retire after 2-3 fights against Usyk.

I’m not sure he’s even got 3 fights left in him. Small camp or not, it’s quite shocking that Ngannou looked so good against him now we have further context.

AJ is in a weird position. No idea what he’s going to do while Uysk/fury are tied up for the next year.

 

[Hal9000]

So now AJs beat him I guess Ngannou is back to being just an mma fighter and never a serious test at all

He should've never have been in the ring and the likes of hearn and Warren and fury have a lot to answer for. Could've seriously hurt

Obvious Hearn is doing whatever he can to get the Fury v Joshua fight and not give Fury an excuse to duck AJ (like he has in the past)

The original plan was probably go out and dominate Wilder, but with Wilder losing vs Parker and Francis giving Fury a good run, the plan changed.

 

[hobbers]

Hope it is as Fury predicts, 2 fights vs Usyk, 2 fights vs AJ. Then we can draw a big fat line under this era.

 

[Hal9000]

I’m not sure he’s even got 3 fights left in him. Small camp or not, it’s quite shocking that Ngannou looked so good against him now we have further context.

AJ is in a weird position. No idea what he’s going to do while Uysk/fury are tied up for the next year.

I'm pretty sure if Fury beats Uysk there is no rematch (thanks to Fury and Warren doing anything they can to duck the fight) so he'll go straight to AJ. Although i suspect Fury will give Uysk a rematch if it means ducking Joshua again.

 

[Dobba]

N gone now? He lacks basic boxing skills at this level, defensively he’s way off. Which is to be expected to be fair. AJ looks sharp, fearless and hungry again, but he wasn’t tested tonight. Lets get Fury v AJ on, and put the winner against Itauma..

Who is he realistically going to look good against in a matchup anyone would give a toss about? Zhang? This version of Parker schools him like AJ just did. Wilder's shine has gone completely.

His best bet is hoping Jake Paul still wants to 'fight' after he's cashed the Tyson cheque.

 

[Fortitude]

Joshua is a total cynic now when it comes to the boxing game. He knows how the media build up fighters to chop them down and he doesn't buy in now. The losses and humbling have done him the world of good.

Never thought he'd look like a natural before; always considered him stiff and robotic, but he's really not looking like the rock 'em sock 'em robot, Bruno reincarnation anymore.

He's said after the fight, the old him would have had a very different fight and probably taken years off his career against the exact same opponent, but the new him is a lot more savvy and clean.

He bigged up his camp and the work they're putting him through, and it really looks to be paying off.

 

[The Hilton]

Exactly the emphatic win that AJ needed to get back into the title conversation, but Ngannou looked every bit the amateur, his hands were so far apart it's like he was advertising the opening for the right hand.

I still don't think he beats Usyk or Fury (if the latter takes it seriously), but he did his homework, stayed miles away from the Ngannou left, and punished the fundamental flaws.

 

[Glorio]

Joshua is a total cynic now when it comes to the boxing game. He knows how the media build up fighters to chop them down and he doesn't buy in now. The losses and humbling have done him the world of good.

Never thought he'd look like a natural before; always considered him stiff and robotic, but he's really not looking like the rock 'em sock 'em robot, Bruno reincarnation anymore.

He's said after the fight, the old him would have had a very different fight and probably taken years off his career against the exact same opponent, but the new him is a lot more savvy and clean.

He bigged up his camp and the work they're putting him through, and it really looks to be paying off.

In the Wallin fight, AJ was devastating as well, and people played down Wallin. He's followed that up with another brutal masterclass - he seems a really good match with his new coach.

I also think as bad as they were for his reputation, those fights with Usyk improved him massively as a fighter, and with the confidence back, he's gone up a few levels

 

[simonhch]

Who is he realistically going to look good against in a matchup anyone would give a toss about? Zhang? This version of Parker schools him like AJ just did. Wilder's shine has gone completely.

His best bet is hoping Jake Paul still wants to 'fight' after he's cashed the Tyson cheque.

Wilder’s done. He took such a battering in that third Fury fight, I have to imagine he has some permanent damage. He’s lost against every decent fighter he’s come up against (hardly any), with the exception of Ortiz, but even then he was in deep trouble for most of it. Think he has to retire. There’s nothing in it now for AJ to fight him, and he’s miles away from getting shot at a title fight. Wilder gets hit so easily. He managed to survive several from Fury who, let’s be honest, doesn’t hit very hard, but AJ would spark him out in no time.

Really hope we can just get Fury vs Usyk, which Fury wins, just so we can get Fury vs AJ. It’s the fight we need to close out this era. Fury/Usyk/AJ is like Rock/Paper/Scissors; Usyk beats AJ, I think Fury beats Usyk, and AJ beats Fury.

End result, AJ retires as the unified HW champ.

Or not……

 

[simonhch]

In the Wallin fight, AJ was devastating as well, and people played down Wallin. He's followed that up with another brutal masterclass - he seems a really good match with his new coach.

I also think as bad as they were for his reputation, those fights with Usyk improved him massively as a fighter, and with the confidence back, he's gone up a few levels

I think this is a very fair assessment. A lot of fighters shrink after a loss, let alone back to back losses against the same opponent. But I think it was the best ring education AJ could’ve gotten. He’s now fighting with a sense of (a) nothing to lose, so that fear that maybe tightened him up at times, isn’t evident, (b) a sense of hunger to become a three time HW champ, and (c) a loser focus that I’ve never seen in him before.

When he entered the scene he was explosive, but unrestrained. Then, as he had more and more on the line to lose, he tightened up and became so restrained that he looked shadow of his former self. Now though, he looks like a fighter who had that aggression and hunger from his earlier days, but it’s filtered through experience, precision and focus.

The schooling by Usyk and the new trainer, is giving us the best version of AJ I have seen. On current form I think he beats anyone and everyone in the division, bar Usyk. And I would still like to see him get a third crack at that.

 

[TwoSheds]

Have to say that 2nd Joshua interview was much more interesting. Much more like the old AJ, considering himself in a future where he's advising younger fighters, self reflective. I really want to like him again - more of that please!

 

[Fortitude]

In the Wallin fight, AJ was devastating as well, and people played down Wallin. He's followed that up with another brutal masterclass - he seems a really good match with his new coach.

I also think as bad as they were for his reputation, those fights with Usyk improved him massively as a fighter, and with the confidence back, he's gone up a few levels

Yeah, I didn't give him as much credit for Wallin as others did because I thought Wallin looked terrified. It wasn't even the destruction in this bout that raised my eyebrow, but the really nice padwork they kept cutting to pre-fight, and then he executed the very same perfectly in the bout proper. Just don't have Joshua down for that kind of speed and fluidity so it threw me a bit.

Agree about Usyk and also the soul searching he's done since. It's really rounded out his game and forced him to work on his flaws. I also think not dicking around with his weight on a yo-yo is helping him to settle and hone things instead of relying on size and power like he used to.

 

[Judas]

Ngannou looked very very poor, but I'm more than happy with the result. If we can see AJ back to his best, or better, I'll be really pleased and surprised. Honestly thought he was done.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Jake Paul vs Mike Tyson in July??

The feck??

On Netflix too. How is that going to work live?

 

[Rams]

Who is he realistically going to look good against in a matchup anyone would give a toss about? Zhang? This version of Parker schools him like AJ just did. Wilder's shine has gone completely.

His best bet is hoping Jake Paul still wants to 'fight' after he's cashed the Tyson cheque.

Moses Itauma! He’s already the best heavyweight in the division and you can quote me on that.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Wow! Super impressive from Joshua! wasn't expecting that. Knocked him down three times

 

[simonhch]

Moses Itauma! He’s already the best heavyweight in the division and you can quote me on that.

I mean, best potential anyway. He hasn’t fought anyone yet. He looks like he could be brilliant but a bit early to call him the best HW when he hasn’t fought anyone of real note yet.

He might announce himself as such shortly, but still got to see how he handles a big occasion.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

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[SambaBoy]

Moses Itauma! He’s already the best heavyweight in the division and you can quote me on that.

He's 19 and fought no-one of note yet. Not that I'd have expected him to and that age/lack of experience. He's likely 3/4 years away from being able to fight the elite of the division, he's done really well in his outings so far and showed ridiculous power but you have to consider the level of opposition. He's nowhere near ready to fight the likes of AJ.

He should build up a fight against Jared Anderson if he keeps winning.

 

[LDUred]

The Paul fight will just be a total circus to make Paul look good.

I really hope Mike isn't getting paid millions just to get beat.

 

[Baneofthegame]

Respect to Ngannou, took on two of the top 3 heavyweights in his first two bouts.
Same thing would happen to Fury/AJ if they stepped into the cage against him.

Brutal KO, AJ has looked sharp and focused in his last two fights, shame we have to wait for two Usyk/Fury fights, maybe he can fight Hrgovic whilst he’s waiting.

 

[Bert_]

The Paul fight will just be a total circus to make Paul look good.

I really hope Mike isn't getting paid millions just to get beat.

It's an exibition fight and he'll be paid enough to let Paul look like he "can take on Tyson", ignoring he fact Tyson is more than twice his age and hasn't taken part in a proper boxing match for over 20 years. It will probably go to the judges and declare a draw after a few round of tapping each others faces.

This WWE style celebrity headline bouts needs to stop. Joshua just put Ngannou to sleep in a proper boxing match. At least he was a UFC Champion and a proven fighter. Imagine one of these celeb boxers like Jake Paul in the same situation. They'd be dead

 

[TheLiverBird]

An Elite Boxer turned up, took it serious

and put the hardest puncher in the world truly in his place in demolishing style.

Fury should have done that instead of messing around

Although it’s an MMA fighter and of course AJ should be winning, fair play too him nonetheless

He’s looking very focused again, we’ll know more when he fights Fury or Usyk

 

[G-manc]

I'm pretty sure if Fury beats Uysk there is no rematch (thanks to Fury and Warren doing anything they can to duck the fight) so he'll go straight to AJ. Although i suspect Fury will give Uysk a rematch if it means ducking Joshua again.

There is a rematch clause as Fury confirmed last night. That was at Usyk’s request and one of the reasons Usyk walked away from the fight the first time they tried to make it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

An Elite Boxer turned up, took it serious

and put the hardest puncher in the world truly in his place in demolishing style.

Fury should have done that instead of messing around

Although it’s an MMA fighter and of course AJ should be winning, fair play too him nonetheless

He’s looking very focused again, we’ll know more when he fights Fury or Usyk

Yup. Shows what a nonsense it was when all the MMA fans got giddy about Ngannou lasting the pace against a barely even half arsed Tyson Fury.

 

[TwoSheds]

Yup. Shows what a nonsense it was when all the MMA fans got giddy about Ngannou lasting the pace against a barely even half arsed Tyson Fury.

Or is Tyson Fury just not that great? Be interesting to find out if he fights Usyk and AJ.

 

[Walter Sobchak]

That switch to southpaw at end of rd1 was the definition of hubris.

Ref should've stopped after KD in the second, Frank just stood up and left his chin out for the KO.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Or is Tyson Fury just not that great? Be interesting to find out if he fights Usyk and AJ.

He’s clearly in a different league to any MMA fighter. But he’s also exactly the sort of person who might half arse his training camp before an exhibition fight. Which is, I’m sure, how he perceived that match-up.

 

[TwoSheds]

He’s clearly in a different league to any MMA fighter. But he’s also exactly the sort of person who might half arse his training camp before an exhibition fight. Which is, I’m sure, how he perceived that match-up.

If you're genuinely the best in the world and an all time great and all that stuff, should you be losing to someone who isn't a boxer just because you half arsed a training camp? And in my view he absolutely lost to Ngannou.

That tale doesn't make sense to me. Either Ngannou is better than people give him credit for and AJ's performance yesterday was exceptional, or he's not that good, and Tyson Fury isn't either. Truth probably somewhere in between.

I think switching to southpaw was a god awful plan yesterday from Ngannou and I don't think he'd do it next time if they ran the fight again. He still would have lost but not quite as spectacularly.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If you're genuinely the best in the world and an all time great and all that stuff, should you be losing to someone who isn't a boxer just because you half arsed a training camp? And in my view he absolutely lost to Ngannou.

That tale doesn't make sense to me. Either Ngannou is better than people give him credit for and AJ's performance yesterday was exceptional, or he's not that good, and Tyson Fury isn't either. Truth probably somewhere in between.

I think switching to southpaw was a god awful plan yesterday from Ngannou and I don't think he'd do it next time if they ran the fight again. He still would have lost but not quite as spectacularly.

Or Ngannou is not that good but not terrible and Fury didn’t take him seriously enough. Which is exactly how it looked during the fight and exactly what you’d expect from a character like Fury.

 

[the_cliff]

He's 19 and fought no-one of note yet. Not that I'd have expected him to and that age/lack of experience. He's likely 3/4 years away from being able to fight the elite of the division, he's done really well in his outings so far and showed ridiculous power but you have to consider the level of opposition. He's nowhere near ready to fight the likes of AJ.

He should build up a fight against Jared Anderson if he keeps winning.

I'm sure I heard somewhere that he's going for the Tyson record (youngest heavyweight champ in history), if he is, he'll have to start fighting the top guys soon.

 

[Fortitude]

That switch to southpaw at end of rd1 was the definition of hubris.

Ref should've stopped after KD in the second, Frank just stood up and left his chin out for the KO.

Really? Hubris? More like someone extremely wet behind the ears not sure what to do because he was getting hurt badly in plan A.

N'Gannou has never been in that kind of deep water in his entire fighting career and it's not hard to imagine he was both startled from being down and close to out as well as what became very unfamiliar water very quickly.

The thought process is more likely to be: shit! Let me try this instead, more than anything like hubris.

 

[Walter Sobchak]

He switched to southpaw about 40 seconds before he was first knocked down.

 

[Fortitude]

He switched to southpaw about 40 seconds before he was first knocked down.

Because? He was getting lit up.

 

[Dan_F]

Who cares if Tyson trained or not for the fight, that’s on him. Bottom line is he got knocked down and almost lost to someone in their first professional boxing match. It’s another blot on his record. At this point he needs to win the Uysk fight to even be any where near the discussion of top 10 heavyweights, let alone amongst the best.

 

[pocco]

Hope it is as Fury predicts, 2 fights vs Usyk, 2 fights vs AJ. Then we can draw a big fat line under this era.

Yeah hopefully. Though as a big Fury fan that has been critical of AJ, last night showed Fury up big time. His performance against Ngannou was shockingly bad by his standards, AJ found the openings from the get go which Fury couldn't find.

Now there's always been a thing with Fury where he just doesn't look good against lesser fighters for whatever reason, but will step it up on the big nights. Hopefully that's what we saw against Ngannou. But somebody was telling me that some stats guys had crunched the numbers of Furys fights and his output in terms of even feints, movement etc was very low against Ngannou. Which makes me wonder if either age or lifestyle has caught up with him.

If that's the case then he's going to struggle against Usyk. I really hope he doesn't, and I hope we see the best Fury against the best AJ in 18 months time. I'm still very confident Fury at his best beats them both, but there's a lot of question marks around it right now and I'd have no appetite to see Fury carry on if he looks just as bad against Usyk.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Or is Tyson Fury just not that great? Be interesting to find out if he fights Usyk and AJ.

You have to question what’s gone on behind the scenes in my opinion. Ngannou left the ufc for money, he’s just secured a double header that’s given him 6x his career earning for fury and probably the same for Joshua.