The RedCafe Boxing Thread
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
I just watched Tyson-Ruddock 2 and on the same VHS tape there is Thomas Hearns X Virgil Hill
How good of a boxer was Thomas ? From what i've read, he used to bounce around weight classes.
How good of a boxer was Thomas ? From what i've read, he used to bounce around weight classes.
Wasn’t Tyson scared of fighting Foreman? The story is that his trainer made him watch many times Foreman’s duel with Frazier (where Foreman demolished Frazier) in order for Tyson to learn the hazards of fighting much bigger boxers. So when the time came for Tyson to potentially fight Foreman, Tyson said that he didn’t want to have nothing with that beast.
The reason he is used is because he is a good boxer that was dealt with. A far higher standard than most of what Fury and Wilder have fought. Ortiz I didn’t see a point in mentioning as he beat wilder from pIllar to post and even though the right hand bailed Wilder out again. It shows how corrupt boxing is that the judges had Wilder in front in their last fight. Because there was no chance.
Simply put I’m not saying Fury has to beat that entire list, and I think your point about time out of the ring is a good one, but to seriously claim best in your generation, have people saying you‘re the Goat is ridiculous. The only really good person he’s beat is Wlad. Wilder is dangerous but you can’t change the fact that he isn’t a good boxer although vastly improved over the fights with Fury, but still looking amateurish at the same time.
Anyway I’m hoping the division opens up a bit more and we are going to start to see the best fights and Wilder isn’t going to hide away in his isolation from the best in the division like before. There are now a good few heavyweights that are interesting. So let’s see them.
Neither wanted to fight the other although people always wondered about the what if of them fighting.
Here's Foreman's thoughts:
Young Foreman wouldn't have the same attitude, mind.
Amplify that by 100 for the 70's version.
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Hearns could do it all box and had a terrific punch.
His fights with Hagler, Leonard and Duran are all time classics.
If he had a failing it was his chin but he was one of the most exciting fighters to watch.
That era is in my opinion the best of boxing. Great fighters who actually fought each other to office who was better.
Leonard is my favourite as he always seemed to find a way to win and overcame a serious injury to come back and compete at the highest level after a long retirement
Friendly killer in his second phase. Killer-killer in his first!
that 2nd fight was needed, the first fight was very biased in favour of Tyson. He got away with some dirty tricks and the stoppage was a joke.He won the rematch, tough fight still but Tyson deserved that win.
Just re-watched the Fury Wilder fight again. Just as entertaining the second time around, but in response to the pages of talk in here about where Fury ranks I'm not convinced people should get carried away by this trilogy. It provided some great moments obviously and I'm not intending to take anything away from Fury, who I rate, but Wilder is an extremely poor boxer. Showed massive heart to get to the 11th, but he abandoned his game plan (that he was doing okay with) immediately after that first knockdown and was ripe for the picking from then on.
Still not completely convinced by Fury in terms of being ranked up there with the greats. I think he beats Usyk because he's just too big for him and he's smart enough to make that count, but for me Joshua - who I think let himself get weighed down by the belts and might now shake off his gun-shy approach - and potentially even Whyte would have a decent shot against him if those fights were ever to happen.
Still not completely convinced by Fury in terms of being ranked up there with the greats. I think he beats Usyk because he's just too big for him and he's smart enough to make that count, but for me Joshua - who I think let himself get weighed down by the belts and might now shake off his gun-shy approach - and potentially even Whyte would have a decent shot against him if those fights were ever to happen.
Foreman says a lot of puzzling things though. Look at his all-time rankings and he’s also previously said Lewis is the best ever. He was a great fighter but I tend not to listen to his views.
Interesting, I will make sure to check out more Hearns fights.
Foreman also came back after a long retirement, right ? I think from 1977 to 1987 he didn't fight. Pretty impressive how he could take punches post 40 and still hit back.
Hearns was an all-time great. Unfortunately he lost his two biggest fights, which were two of the biggest fights in history too but he also collected titles from 147 to 175, bombed out Cuevas, Duran and won a chess match with a master boxer in Benitez (the fifth king), got stiffed in the Leonard rematch and also gave a great account of himself in Leonard I.
That second fight is generally considered the end of ''peak Tyson'' aswell ? You get the sense that after prison he tried to be the same but was never quite the same.
Mcneeley, Buster Mathis Jr, Old Bruno and Seldon were a bit of overmatched opponents I think. Holyfield was his first true test post prison.
Thank you! It seems that today's fighters are less willing to change weight classes more often. Canelo might be one of the few doing that.
Peak Tyson was 86-88. He just didn't have the mental strength to deal with private life turmoil.
That's because Cus trained him to be the baddest man alive. He never had the time to chat to Mike about life stuff and unfortunately Mike never had a father while his mother was always battling addiction.
When you add Don King and Robin Givens to the mix...oh well.
But still, he could have found a way to win the fights he lost... look at Jon Jones. no matter what's going on he never loses.
But maybe Tyson always needed someone to make him feel confident. I guess guys like Mayweather and Jones always truly got the confidence to perform.
It was a shame Wilder couldn’t just shake hands at the end of the bout as his stock had increased after that fight.
If you really hate a man, and the bout is more than a boxing match for you, shaking his hand after he's schooled you and let you know even your very best isn't good enough, is just not on the cards.
Bygones post-fight are when differences are settled in the ring and both sides are then amenable to squashing the beef - for Wilder, Fury has probably taken his soul and a lot of his ego, I don't see where people think a handshake etc. is most likely in such a circumstance.
Call him a poor sport or whatever, but if the bout is more than sport to him, I think it's pretty clear cut as to why he would have no interest in shaking the hand of the man (he hates) who will probably haunt his thoughts for years to come.
Maybe those same years down the line, Wilder will come round, but for now, it's not hard to imagine it's all very, very raw for him. He truly believed in his hype until he met Fury, then Fury came along, told him what he would do to him in each fight, and went out and executed it, that's soul crushing for someone like Wilder.
Bygones post-fight are when differences are settled in the ring and both sides are then amenable to squashing the beef - for Wilder, Fury has probably taken his soul and a lot of his ego, I don't see where people think a handshake etc. is most likely in such a circumstance.
Call him a poor sport or whatever, but if the bout is more than sport to him, I think it's pretty clear cut as to why he would have no interest in shaking the hand of the man (he hates) who will probably haunt his thoughts for years to come.
Maybe those same years down the line, Wilder will come round, but for now, it's not hard to imagine it's all very, very raw for him. He truly believed in his hype until he met Fury, then Fury came along, told him what he would do to him in each fight, and went out and executed it, that's soul crushing for someone like Wilder.
I totally agree with what you are saying but I'd also add that the problem with Wilder is that he is very self-absorbed that has no grasp of perspective.
Fury has actually shown Wilder more respect than he has shown any other fighter. In between the insults, he has said that Wilder is better than anyone else out there quite a few times.
He also has to sell his own fight and Fury's antics, sometimes outrageous, draw people to boxing and put money in his opponent's pockets. He doesn't have to do it and could quite easily just be boring.
Ultimately, he understands boxing's traditions and its history as a gentleman's sport, hence commiserating with Wilder. Wilder just does not get this, at all. He just sees it as being about him and takes everything personally.
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Yeah, no doubt about what you're saying, but I've never had a man take everything I hold dear about myself away from me, so I try to imagine it from his perspective and I totally get it from there - aside from the physical aspect of being battered from pillar to post and potentially having years of his life and boxing career taken from him, he's also got to wallow in the despair of knowing this one man has taken all that he is as a boxer/professional/public figure away, and even worse (from his perspective) has bested him so badly, he can take pity on him and give words of encouragement to fix his life/self. From [so-called] rival to the dismissed, it's very humiliating for someone calling himself a king/god/destroyer<insert> and he can never do any of that again without someone bring Fury up to hush him back down.
Of all the things, knowing his best is so far off what is needed to beat Fury has to be exasperating. I think you're totally right in that Wilder has no real respect for boxing or its history, which was why/how he made the wild claims he did in the past truly believing his words, too.
It will be interesting to see if Wilder ever steps foot in the ring again, and if he does, will he have the same confidence and ego that he did or will he be a shadow of the bully he once was.
Fury's dignity has saved Wilder in a big way because he could make him feel even worse if he had chosen to rub it in after the fact.
Fury wasn't really down 20 seconds even though there were 20 seconds left when he went down for the second time in round 4. He seemed to get up around the 10 second mark and by the time the ref let him continue the bell sounded.
I don't buy the long count excuse i know mike tyson used it as a way of excusing his loss to Douglas and it seemed to me in both fights the fighter knocked down were taking the count from the referee and got up before he got to 10 regardless of how long it may have been. If the ref had counted quicker they would have risen quicker i feel.
It would have been interesting had Wilder landed the first knockdown earlier in the round though as had he another 30 seconds to play with you have to feel he would have Tyson down for the third and final time as he was clearly shaken.
Would have been unfair as Fury is the better fighter but thats boxing
I don't buy the long count excuse i know mike tyson used it as a way of excusing his loss to Douglas and it seemed to me in both fights the fighter knocked down were taking the count from the referee and got up before he got to 10 regardless of how long it may have been. If the ref had counted quicker they would have risen quicker i feel.
It would have been interesting had Wilder landed the first knockdown earlier in the round though as had he another 30 seconds to play with you have to feel he would have Tyson down for the third and final time as he was clearly shaken.
Would have been unfair as Fury is the better fighter but thats boxing
Wilder eventually congratulated Fury on twitter, hope that's the end of it now. Both warriors and deserve respect for that trilogy.
Yeah, good to see. Was a brilliant trilogy in fairness and both deserve the plaudits.
I’ve gone down abit of a rabbit hole the last couple weeks of going back and watching full fights or fight highlights, particularly in the modern era. That Whyte vs Chisora fight was absolutely brutal, just too massive blokes landing huge hits and I swear both had steel jaws.
Having now gone back and watched loads of old fights it does stand out just how poor AJs chin is and it’s probably what separates him from the greats. Sure his head speed and defence overall is average but he certainly has the power and actually throws some lovely combinations. If he had the jaw Wilder has he’d be some threat.
Having now gone back and watched loads of old fights it does stand out just how poor AJs chin is and it’s probably what separates him from the greats. Sure his head speed and defence overall is average but he certainly has the power and actually throws some lovely combinations. If he had the jaw Wilder has he’d be some threat.
A big concern, in combination, with Joshua, is having a weak or questionable head (he gets wobbled by looping shots to the temple and around the head a lot) and chin and then not having either the head movement or defence to protect and compensate for his vulnerability. It should never be all three things - usually boxers of a certain quality will excel or be proficient in some combination of the above, and Joshua just isn't, which makes him questionable in any all out war with the big guys and big hitters, and as we've seen with the nimble, more technical boxer, it's only a matter of time before the shots will take their toll, too.
Had the pleasure of meeting Eder Jofre today here in Los Angeles. Picked him up and then we went to meet up with Carlos Zarate at his sons house. Carlos arrived today also. They really enjoyed seeing each other and seem to have a very nice bond. Jofre, as some here know, is the boxer I wrote the book on. He’s being inducted into the West Coast Boxing Hall of Fame on Sunday.
Epic day and some great stuff to come in the coming days.
Epic day and some great stuff to come in the coming days.
Great photos mate
This guy Hammer isn’t going 12 rounds that’s for sure..
I know it’s early days for boxxer and Sky but two retirements on the stool that’s what you get when you put 1/50’s and 1/100’s in, embarrassing.
A poor couple of events for sky sports boxing. The whole set up looks cheap and tacky.
Just not true IMO. He’s one of the greatest HW’s ever. The problem for him was his inability to deal with stuff outside the ring, (especially with the death of D’Amato) and the fact he went to prison. The guy that came out was not the same fighter. The guy that Lewis beat was not the same fighter. Had Lewis and Holyfield fought Tyson during that period when he was focused and fighting Holmes, Berbick, Spinks etc., I believe Tyson would have destroyed them.
Not overrated at all. Prime Tyson (and you’ve given the rough period there, it basically ended with the Buster Douglas defeat and then the prison term which took him out of the game for four years) is still the greatest heavyweight boxer I’ve ever seen. Ali was before my time. His speed and power was astonishing. Other top fighters at that time were legit afraid of him.
Sky is done
The only good thing about it these days is RedZone
The only good thing about it these days is RedZone
Just read Eubanks v Williams is going to be PPV too, who the hell they kidding.
That guy who was doing the changing room interviews was well awkward.
This counts against him being one of the greats. You can't factor what someone could've been into their greatness, you can only factor what actually happened. It's like saying that Edwin Valero is one of the greatest fighters of the recent generation. He might well have been if he hadn't murdered his wife and hung himself. It's stepping into the realm of the counterfactual. There are countless athletes that could've had better careers if things had run better for them in their personal life.
You've also mentioned a couple of myths that are popular with Tyson fans. D'Amato died 4 fights into his pro career. Tyson won 25 fights after the death of D'Amato including all his greatest wins. Tyson was also comprehensively out boxed and knocked out by a non-elite heavyweight James Douglas two years before he entered prison. He was never really on the rails either. He was in all sorts of trouble when he was in D'Amato's troubled boys school. You can actually argue that D'Amato was bad for Tyson on a personal level. Whilst Teddy Atlas has an axe to grind with Tyson his beef seems to stem from D'Amato allowing Tyson to get away with disturbing bad behavior in the troubled boy's school that D'Amato ran. Some of this, at least in Atlas's testimony, was to do with him molesting girls at school (including Atlas's cousin) and being generally manipulative to D'Amato and his family. Atlas accuses Tyson of destroying the spirit of the school because D'Amato was so drunk on the idea of having a heavyweight world champion in his years approaching death that he abandoned the principles that the school was founded on. Tyson was basically held to a much lower behaviour standard than the other boys by D'Amato because of his fighting talent.
Personally I think Tyson is the greatest myth in boxing. Not because he wasn't an elite fighter but because he's held in a far higher esteem by some than his record deserves. He didn't beat an elite heavyweight in their prime, in fact he lost all such fights. The media hype seems to have allowed him be judged on what he might of done rather than what he achieved, which doesn't really stand up to any real scrutiny. This is reflected by how most credible boxing historians assess his career.
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There’s a lot here, some I agree with and some I vehemently disagree with. But before I get into a discussion about it, did you actually see him fight?