Deery
Dreary
- Joined
- May 21, 2019
- Messages
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I know it’s early days for boxxer and Sky but two retirements on the stool that’s what you get when you put 1/50’s and 1/100’s in, embarrassing.
Just not true IMO. He’s one of the greatest HW’s ever. The problem for him was his inability to deal with stuff outside the ring, (especially with the death of D’Amato) and the fact he went to prison. The guy that came out was not the same fighter. The guy that Lewis beat was not the same fighter. Had Lewis and Holyfield fought Tyson during that period when he was focused and fighting Holmes, Berbick, Spinks etc., I believe Tyson would have destroyed them.I believe so. I think the marketing and mythology behind the idea of a “prime Tyson” has been aggressive and has brainwashed many. He was a great talent and was explosive, accomplished a lot, but he’s not one of the best fighters ever. “Prime” Tyson had limitations too and also benefitted from an uninspired era. The perfect storm. Had he been born 5 years later he likely never wins the title because he wouldnt beat Holyfield, Bowe, or Lewis. 5 years earlier he wouldn’t beat a prime Holmes.
Not overrated at all. Prime Tyson (and you’ve given the rough period there, it basically ended with the Buster Douglas defeat and then the prison term which took him out of the game for four years) is still the greatest heavyweight boxer I’ve ever seen. Ali was before my time. His speed and power was astonishing. Other top fighters at that time were legit afraid of him.Is prime Mike Tyson overrated? I don't mean Tyson's career in general but the actual prime Mike Tyson? Was he really this great at his peak? I don't have enough knowledge to judge his opponents during his prime days.
(would his prime have been from '86 to '90?)
Just read Eubanks v Williams is going to be PPV too, who the hell they kidding.Sky is done
The only good thing about it these days is RedZone
This counts against him being one of the greats. You can't factor what someone could've been into their greatness, you can only factor what actually happened. It's like saying that Edwin Valero is one of the greatest fighters of the recent generation. He might well have been if he hadn't murdered his wife and hung himself. It's stepping into the realm of the counterfactual. There are countless athletes that could've had better careers if things had run better for them in their personal life.Just not true IMO. He’s one of the greatest HW’s ever. The problem for him was his inability to deal with stuff outside the ring, (especially with the death of D’Amato) and the fact he went to prison. The guy that came out was not the same fighter. The guy that Lewis beat was not the same fighter. Had Lewis and Holyfield fought Tyson during that period when he was focused and fighting Holmes, Berbick, Spinks etc., I believe Tyson would have destroyed them.
There’s a lot here, some I agree with and some I vehemently disagree with. But before I get into a discussion about it, did you actually see him fight?This counts against him being one of the greats. You can't factor what someone could've been into their greatness, you can only factor what actually happened. It's like saying that Edwin Valero is one of the greatest fighters of the recent generation. He might well have been if he hadn't murdered his wife and hung himself. It's stepping into the realm of the counterfactual. There are countless athletes that could've had better careers if things had run better for them in their personal life.
You've also mentioned a couple of myths that are popular with Tyson fans. D'Amato died 4 fights into his pro career. Tyson won 25 fights after the death of D'Amato including all his greatest wins. Tyson was also comprehensively out boxed and knocked out by a non-elite heavyweight James Douglas two years before he entered prison. He was never really on the rails either. He was in all sorts of trouble when he was in D'Amato's troubled boys school. You can actually argue that D'Amato was bad for Tyson on a personal level. Whilst Teddy Atlas has an axe to grind with Tyson his beef seems to stem from D'Amato allowing Tyson to get away with disturbing bad behavior in the troubled boy's school that D'Amato ran. Some of this, at least in Atlas's testimony, was to do with him molesting girls at school (including Atlas's cousin) and being generally manipulative to D'Amato and his family. Atlas accuses Tyson of destroying the spirit of the school because D'Amato was so drunk on the idea of having a heavyweight world champion in his years approaching death that he abandoned the principles that the school was founded on. Tyson was basically held to a much lower behaviour standard than the other boys by D'Amato because of his fighting talent.
Personally I think Tyson is the greatest myth in boxing. Not because he wasn't an elite fighter but because he's held in a far higher esteem by some than his record deserves. He didn't beat an elite heavyweight in their prime, in fact he lost all such fights. The media hype seems to have allowed him be judged on what he might of done rather than what he achieved, which doesn't really stand up to any real scrutiny. This is reflected by how most credible boxing historians assess his career.
Not live but yes I saw a lot of his fights.There’s a lot here, some I agree with and some I vehemently disagree with. But before I get into a discussion about it, did you actually see him fight?
OK, so where would you rank Tyson all time?Not live but yes I saw a lot of his fights.
Chin made of plexiglass. But a skilled fighter.Once again I've gone down the YouTube rabbit hole. Just watched Price Nazeer's best clips and my god what an entertainer, amazing. Also for old-time boxing fans, how good was Lennox Lewis? He seemed to beat pretty much everyone and some legendary names too. Any reason he isn't rated as the greatest heavyweight?
How did he get so many wins if his chin was so weak? I mean he beat Tyson and Hollyfield, surely you can't do that without taking a punch but i'd happy to learn more?Chin made of plexiglass. But a skilled fighter.
This is absolute nonsense. I cannot believe that anyone could have watched his fights against Morrison, Mercer, Briggs, Tua, Holyfield, Bruno, Vitali etc. and concluded that he has a bad chin. It’s pretty laughable.Chin made of plexiglass. But a skilled fighter.
This is absolute nonsense. I cannot believe that anyone could have watched his fights against Morrison, Mercer, Briggs, Tua, Holyfield, Bruno, Vitali etc. and concluded that he has a bad chin. It’s pretty laughable.
The guy fought a long tough career in an era with a lot of heavyweights who hit hard and only ever hit the canvas twice. I’ve seen every single fight of his since he won the European title and Lennox had a good chin.
Not in the top 10 greatest heavyweights and nowhere near the greatest P4P fighter. I only say he's so overrated because some of his fans think he's the greatest P4P fighter of all time.OK, so where would you rank Tyson all time?
You think Tyson Fury is ahead of Mike Tyson now? Come on man, that is a ridiculous claim, with all due respect to Fury.Not in the top 10 greatest heavyweights and nowhere near the greatest P4P fighter. I only say he's so overrated because some of his fans think he's the greatest P4P fighter of all time.
Bill Caplan had him all the way down as the 17th greatest heavyweight, perhaps a little controversially. I actually think that Tyson Fury is ahead of him in the all time list now as well. If you look at Caplan's criticism of Tyson then Fury is quite the opposite.
Iron Mike, another D’Amato creation, was the world’s greatest front runner. Never once did he walk through fire and win. He never came from behind to win. He never rose from the deck to win. Lack of heart? Lack of character? I don’t know. You tell me.
A lot of what makes a fighter great is how they come back from adversity. In the case of Lennox Lewis it's generally cited that his two knockout wins over the guys that knocked him out was a big contributor to his legacy as a great. Tyson for all his talent couldn't handle adversity.
https://www.ringtv.com/410833-bill-caplans-20-greatest-heavyweights/
Have you confused him with Prince Naseem?Chin made of plexiglass. But a skilled fighter.
You think Naseem had a suspect chin?Have you confused him with Prince Naseem?
That's a fair point. Most of his resume is largely underwhelming at this point. He needs more signature wins.You think Tyson Fury is ahead of Mike Tyson now? Come on man, that is a ridiculous claim, with all due respect to Fury.
You can argue about whether Tyson is top 10 or top 20. There’s been a lot of great heavyweights in history. Most would put Louis one and Ali second or vice versa. Then there’s Foreman, Frazier, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Marciano, etc. These fighters can all credibly be ranked above Tyson.
But for you to claim Fury is now ahead?! Mike Tyson was the youngest ever to win the HW title, the first to unify the belts, and he beat 13 world champions in his career. Fury has to date (at age 33) beaten what? Two? Three? His best wins are against a guy with zero boxing skill who started in the sport in his twenties and a near 40 year old Wlad Klitschko. That doesn’t qualify you to be one of the top ten or twenty HWs in my book.
Well he was knocked down a lot in his career to be honestYou think Naseem had a suspect chin?
I think he’s a good fighter but who is there to beat these days? I don’t rate Joshua either and Usyk has ability but he’s a cruiserweight. Who else? Whyte? It’s a bad time for the HW division.That's a fair point. Most of his resume is largely underwhelming at this point. He needs more signature wins.
I don't think Lennox is underrated because I mean, most people would rate him in the top 10 heavyweights of all time. For me he was a brilliant boxer... amazing jab which was beautiful when he used to double it up. Fantastic uppercut and a brilliantly accurate combination puncher when he used to let his hands go.I was exaggerating for comic effect. But it was a reference to the couple of times he was put to sleep by one punch. On the poster’s question of why he’s underrated, I don’t actually know. What do you think?
Yeah the Rahman knockout was awful. I think he’s one of the few fighters though who managed to avenge all his defeats.I don't think Lennox is underrated because I mean, most people would rate him in the top 10 heavyweights of all time. For me he was a brilliant boxer... amazing jab which was beautiful when he used to double it up. Fantastic uppercut and a brilliantly accurate combination puncher when he used to let his hands go.
He obviously has those two blemishes on his record. It was a huge shot he took from McCall early in their first fight but I also agree with Lennox that the referee stopped it too soon. Perhaps a bit of inexperience on Lewis' part in that he bounced back to his feet too fast and was clearly on unsteady legs but I don't think the referee should have ended it as quickly as he did. I think the champ deserved a chance to recover even if it's likely he gets stopped shortly after. This is one thing Fury does very well in that when he gets knocked down... he doesn't rush back to his feet and gives himself a moment to get his senses back.
The first fight against Rahman he just didn't look good at all... poor preparation maybe and flying out late when fighting at high altitude probably didn't help - not enough time to acclimatise.
He was easy to hit due to his style and as he fought better fighters towards the end of his career he suffered more flash knockdowns but you rarely saw him hurt and he was never stopped in his career, losing once on pointsWell he was knocked down a lot in his career to be honest
When you're constantly off balance and fighting in such an unorthodox way, it's easy to be dropped via momentum that hasn't really got anything to do with your chin - you can tell from how quickly the fighter gets up and how he continues whether it's his chin or simply unconventional angles and collisions creating a perfect storm. Nas rarely got caught flush; his punch resistance was rarely challenged. He's not someone I'd consider having a weak chin, personally.Well he was knocked down a lot in his career to be honest
Excellent post and I agree with all of this.This counts against him being one of the greats. You can't factor what someone could've been into their greatness, you can only factor what actually happened. It's like saying that Edwin Valero is one of the greatest fighters of the recent generation. He might well have been if he hadn't murdered his wife and hung himself. It's stepping into the realm of the counterfactual. There are countless athletes that could've had better careers if things had run better for them in their personal life.
You've also mentioned a couple of myths that are popular with Tyson fans. D'Amato died 4 fights into his pro career. Tyson won 25 fights after the death of D'Amato including all his greatest wins. Tyson was also comprehensively out boxed and knocked out by a non-elite heavyweight James Douglas two years before he entered prison. He was never really on the rails either. He was in all sorts of trouble when he was in D'Amato's troubled boys school. You can actually argue that D'Amato was bad for Tyson on a personal level. Whilst Teddy Atlas has an axe to grind with Tyson his beef seems to stem from D'Amato allowing Tyson to get away with disturbing bad behavior in the troubled boy's school that D'Amato ran. Some of this, at least in Atlas's testimony, was to do with him molesting girls at school (including Atlas's cousin) and being generally manipulative to D'Amato and his family. Atlas accuses Tyson of destroying the spirit of the school because D'Amato was so drunk on the idea of having a heavyweight world champion in his years approaching death that he abandoned the principles that the school was founded on. Tyson was basically held to a much lower behaviour standard than the other boys by D'Amato because of his fighting talent.
Personally I think Tyson is the greatest myth in boxing. Not because he wasn't an elite fighter but because he's held in a far higher esteem by some than his record deserves. He didn't beat an elite heavyweight in their prime, in fact he lost all such fights. The media hype seems to have allowed him be judged on what he might of done rather than what he achieved, which doesn't really stand up to any real scrutiny. This is reflected by how most credible boxing historians assess his career.
The myth of peak Tyson is still strong I see. Peak Tyson went to decisions with Mitch Green and James Bonecrusher Smith, he also went to a decision to Ruddock a few years later, the same Ruddock that Lewis smoked in two rounds.Tyson would never of beaten Holyfield or Lewis.Lewis and Holyfield would not have lasted one round with a peak Tyson let's get serious here. Tyson would have them knocked out inside 90 seconds.
Bowe who knows? Tyson has always said he would never fight with Bowe because they grew up together and were too friendly.
The myth of peak Tyson is still strong I see. Peak Tyson went to decisions with Mitch Green and James Bonecrusher Smith, he also went to a decision to Ruddock a few years later, the same Ruddock that Lewis smoked in two rounds.Tyson would never of beaten Holyfield or Lewis.
No version of Tyson defeats a peak Lewis. More skilled, taller, bigger, longer jab. Tyson doesn’t get near.Lewis and Holyfield would not have lasted one round with a peak Tyson let's get serious here. Tyson would have them knocked out inside 90 seconds.
Bowe who knows? Tyson has always said he would never fight with Bowe because they grew up together and were too friendly.
No version of Tyson defeats a peak Lewis. More skilled, taller, bigger, longer jab. Tyson doesn’t get near.
I love Tyson but most of his wins came against bums and boxers who were retiring.
I think that peak Tyson might have done better against Holyfield, but then again, I would have had Holyfield as favorite.
In heavyweight, everyone has a chance against everyone, one punch could be all it takes. Lewis lost those two fights like that (in both cases, being massively underprepared), but a fully focused Lewis beats Tyson 7 or 8 times out of 10.Lewis lost against much more inferior fighters though and i just don't see him even at his best keeping Tyson off him. Once Tyson gets through it would be over
In heavyweight, everyone has a chance against everyone, one punch could be all it takes. Lewis lost those two fights like that (in both cases, being massively underprepared), but a fully focused Lewis beats Tyson 7 or 8 times out of 10.
If you count against Lewis those two fights (which he avenged), then you have to count Douglas Buster against Mike.
Yeah it's a shame as it was an eliminator wasn't it? Having been the number one contender for so long without a shot he must be thinking he will never get another crack at the title.Annoyed that the Whyte fight has been cancelled.