think Ronaldo would have become the player he is even without the PL, he's one of the hardest working players added with him having freakish athletic ability and bags of natural talent he'd have become the 2nd best player of his generation no matter what.
The relative strength of the Premier League
- Thread starter Wumminator
- Start date
Ronaldo doesn't become who he was without Sir Alex imo.
Its alright working hard but you have to focus it in the right areas. Sir Alex was king of this.
Its alright working hard but you have to focus it in the right areas. Sir Alex was king of this.
Can we keep this thread from descending into nonsense please. There’s enough places to debate about Ronaldo.
I reckon the PL has always been relatively strong from top to bottom. It's just that the top teams forgot how to defend for a few years so the performances in Europe suffered. Seems to be swinging back around now.
Maybe the level of manager has just increased.
England have some superb players in the first 11.
England always produces quality players. In the last decade, you had the likes of Rio, Cole, Terry, Lampard, Gerrard in the team.
Just ridiculous to say otherwise.
I think you need to learn to count mate. None of those players came into the team in the last decade.
I'd say in the early noughtie's a lot of great English talent came through but feck all has since. Hence your awful performances in international tournaments in the last decade.
Good time to dig out this thread to get current view of our Chief Premier League Officer @Wumminator
So basically in England we have five teams who are competitive in Europe by the look of it, but City with Pep are running away with the title and have won 16 games out of 17 so far - the only time they didn't was when they were down to 10 men for most of the game.
Meanwhile in Spain only 5 point separate Barcelona and Valencia, Champions League winners Real Madrid are only fourth and up until 5th place everyone still has a shot at finishing top 3 or even title.
In Italy there are just 5 points between 1st and 4th, Juventus sit 3rd and there are five teams still competing for the title with legitimate chance of winning it.
Going by @Wumminator book, I think it's fair to say now that Serie A and La Liga are now the strongest leagues in Europe and Premier League is quite shit and boring because of how uncompetitive it is? It's basically a route for City week in week out... So does the narrative change now that PL is not competitive and two other top leagues are?
So basically in England we have five teams who are competitive in Europe by the look of it, but City with Pep are running away with the title and have won 16 games out of 17 so far - the only time they didn't was when they were down to 10 men for most of the game.
Meanwhile in Spain only 5 point separate Barcelona and Valencia, Champions League winners Real Madrid are only fourth and up until 5th place everyone still has a shot at finishing top 3 or even title.
In Italy there are just 5 points between 1st and 4th, Juventus sit 3rd and there are five teams still competing for the title with legitimate chance of winning it.
Going by @Wumminator book, I think it's fair to say now that Serie A and La Liga are now the strongest leagues in Europe and Premier League is quite shit and boring because of how uncompetitive it is? It's basically a route for City week in week out... So does the narrative change now that PL is not competitive and two other top leagues are?
Love it.EDIT: The first few pages of this thread are hilarious. Amazing wummery from the op.
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Europe will be a key indicator. If City, who are running away with it, still struggle in the CL, it wouldn’t be a great reflection.
I do think the PL will gain ground though. It’s clear the continental powerhouses have players on the way down, and can’t outspend the PL in the arms race for best replacements. Add this to the fact that we have some of the best coaches here and I can see a period of dominance.
In terms of ‘quality’, we have been disguising shite as ‘competitiveness’ for years. I watched Newcastle vs Leicester last week, for example. Finished 2-3 to Leicester, both teams scored in both halves, but it was devoid of any quality at all. Too many games like that have been cited as ‘what the PL is all about’ and a ‘great advert’ for too long. I’ve never liked the ‘anyone can beat anyone’ era. But when the worst team is a 4 and the best just a 6, that will happen. Now the best team is an 8 or 9, the 4s can’t lay a glove on them.
I do think the PL will gain ground though. It’s clear the continental powerhouses have players on the way down, and can’t outspend the PL in the arms race for best replacements. Add this to the fact that we have some of the best coaches here and I can see a period of dominance.
In terms of ‘quality’, we have been disguising shite as ‘competitiveness’ for years. I watched Newcastle vs Leicester last week, for example. Finished 2-3 to Leicester, both teams scored in both halves, but it was devoid of any quality at all. Too many games like that have been cited as ‘what the PL is all about’ and a ‘great advert’ for too long. I’ve never liked the ‘anyone can beat anyone’ era. But when the worst team is a 4 and the best just a 6, that will happen. Now the best team is an 8 or 9, the 4s can’t lay a glove on them.
This
I think peak of this era of competitiveness (anybody can beat anybody) was the 2012/13 season. It probably started at the turn of the decade where all the top teams seemed to declined in quality or perhaps the top teams in Europe just got better — probably a combination of the two.
While now we seem to see a decrease in competitiveness but perhaps more on level or maybe tier below Europe’s elites.
Still don't think any of our teams have what it takes when it comes to the business end against the top European sides. Showed on Sunday. 1st vs 2nd and you have one team that can't string a pass together and the other that leaves itself completely open and vulnerable to conceding chances even when it is monopolising the ball.
Though I do think things are moving in the right direction. First year in a while where the Champions from the previous year still look a strong side and someone else has had to raise the bar to pull away.
Though I do think things are moving in the right direction. First year in a while where the Champions from the previous year still look a strong side and someone else has had to raise the bar to pull away.
I think PL is a lot closer to La Liga if not better this season. Twig cannot think that because there is no indication to that according to the criteria he usually used i.e. mainly how competitive the league is. It's a one team league this season. To the contrary, it's Serie A and La Liga that are showing signs of being competitive.
Of course there is also the case of not looking at European results at all because teams are too tired by competitiveness of La Liga and Serie A to do well there.
Most teams in Europe leave themselves open though. It's why defenders like Ramos divide opinion, they're constantly exposed and left 1v1 and expected to consistently execute high level descions vs strikers and thus any mistakes are greatly accentuated. It's the risk of playing expansive attacking football which a lot of the top sides do albeit with not so small caveat of being able to call on the worlds best players. It's why defenders like Lovren struggle in our system.
On a tangent one thing I've noticed all City Real Barca Bayern and PSG are great exponents of is intricate wing play with cutbacks for simple finishes. ( Something we could learn with playing if we're aiming to go in our current vein)
Point being even though it's on a lesser scale to us all the top sides play at times risky football with the primary aim being to win playing their brand of football.
Though you're right the CL will be mightily interesting this year but the Bundesliga and La Liga just have much better quality on display. The BL In particular, great beer cheap tickets loud crouds and fan ownership. You can't really have several teams playing shit football there, the fans just won't accept it.
Here we love it because the underdog is derailing the mighty corporate superpowers. It's a mantra that's stuck and is a selling point from everything to the media through to how refs officiate games, It's naive to think it doesn't have an effect.
I agree that the gap has closed. As to whether it has disappeared altogether, that remains to be seen in Europe.
The big continental sides are certainly not as good as they have been.
On the 'anybody can beat anybody' thing, I think you could argue the lack of competitiveness between 03-09 (the prime big four era) was slightly overrated. It applied more to United and Chelsea who consistently finished with 75+ points - Arsenal and Liverpool were obviously excellent in Europe but in turn sometimes found themselves struggling to obtain CL football and throwing away lots of silly points. Arsenal in 06-07, for example, lost to West Ham (X2), Manchester City (how we long for the days when that was unexpected...), Fulham, Bolton and Sheffield United. That's before you add in draws against Spurs, Newcastle, Middlesbrough and more.
Leicester won the league in the modern era. Take away all the romance out of it, and its pretty damning. How they won the league over 38 games is mind boggling really.
Have you seen the quality of the bottom teams in those leagues? They are not getting any better.
I have... You are correct, the quality down there in PL is just brutal.
In the meantime bottom teams in La Liga are taking points off Real and even Barcelona left, right and centre. Quite impressive. Levante got a draw and Betis got a win at Bernabeu, the improvement is massive.
Just interested which players from those clubs bigger teams should be looking at?
who should Utd be looking at from the bottom 8 PL teams?
Players like Zaha, Begovic, Sakho, Hernandez, Butland, Jonny Evans , Abraham would be good signings for teams going for Europe I imagine. What about Spain?
1 Spain 23.000 20.214 23.928 20.142 11.000 98.284 7/7
2 England 16.785 13.571 14.250 14.928 12.214 71.748 6/7
3 Italy 14.166 19.000 11.500 14.250 10.833 69.749 6/6
4 Germany 14.714 15.857 16.428 14.571 6.000 67.570 3/7
5 France 8.500 10.916 11.083 14.416 7.500 52.415 4/6
6 Russia 10.416 9.666 11.500 9.200 9.400 50.182 4/5
7 Portugal 9.916 9.083 10.500 8.083 7.000 44.582 3/6
8 Ucraina 7.833 10.000 9.800 5.500 6.000 39.133 2/5
9 Belgium 6.400 9.600 7.400 12.500 2.600 38.500 0/5
10 Turkey 6.700 6.000 6.600 9.700 5.800 34.800 1/5
Based on UEFA ranking the "relative strenght of PL" is all about media propaganda and marketing.
2 England 16.785 13.571 14.250 14.928 12.214 71.748 6/7
3 Italy 14.166 19.000 11.500 14.250 10.833 69.749 6/6
4 Germany 14.714 15.857 16.428 14.571 6.000 67.570 3/7
5 France 8.500 10.916 11.083 14.416 7.500 52.415 4/6
6 Russia 10.416 9.666 11.500 9.200 9.400 50.182 4/5
7 Portugal 9.916 9.083 10.500 8.083 7.000 44.582 3/6
8 Ucraina 7.833 10.000 9.800 5.500 6.000 39.133 2/5
9 Belgium 6.400 9.600 7.400 12.500 2.600 38.500 0/5
10 Turkey 6.700 6.000 6.600 9.700 5.800 34.800 1/5
Based on UEFA ranking the "relative strenght of PL" is all about media propaganda and marketing.
Jonathan Viera, Tana and Lemos(who has several big clubs interested) just from last place las palmas
Cool, wonder where they’ll end up.
Come on, you wouldn't actually take any of those at Utd. I'd say Hernandez and Evans at a stretch as a backup striker/defender. If those are the best you can come up with from the bottom half of the table it's hardly a glowly endorsement of the quality throughout. What I will say is the top teams look a lot better than they have in years and I think we're getting closer to the PL being dominant again in Europe if they keep going this way.
I haven't really seen much of La Liga this season so I can't give you an answer to that. I'd say the Spanish posters and people in the La Liga thread are better equipped to answer.
Probably some EL club like sevilla or real sociedad if they want to move. Or Southampton
PL bottom teams? Pretty much none. There are a few interesting players in La Liga though. Bilbao have a few, Laporte would be a top 4 player in PL when in form.
Quite interesting. I don't think many teams in stronger leagues would have them but maybe they could do a job at Burnley, Watford or another English club aiming for Europe.
It's amazing how far PL has fallen since the historical 2014-16 years when it was so competitive. Also remarkable how much better La Liga and Serie A have become. Real, Juventus used to run away with it and they struggle now. Considering leader has 16 out of 17 wins in PL is it fair to say it's the absolute worst it's ever been?
Yeah, teams like Real leave themselves open, because they trust themselves to either control or be good enough to win the game. They don't leave themselves open like City do though. City are like Arsenal at times...the opposition get the ball, play two easy passes and suddenly City's centrebacks are exposed and one of them is inexplicably lying on the floor. You just can't be that easy to cut through against the top sides. It doesn't matter how good you are against the not quite top ones. When City play Real, or Barcelona, or PSG, at the business end of the season, they wont be able to keep the ball off them enough to stop them from playing, and if they can't do that, they will lose.
Based on the weekend I would say they'd be pushing their luck massively even against a United side on a good day, and United are nowhere near the level of teams you could meet in the CL quarter or semi finals.
I don't think there is a set way of playing for success. People seme to like banging on about teams and their identity, but teams generally play how the manager sets them up to play. You can win Champions Leagues playing exapnsive possession football...or you can win them playing compact counter attacking football. Or you can win them because Barcelona and Bayern Munich somehow contrive to miss about 500 easy chances in a row against you.
I think part of the reason we have so many teams play "boring" football in England is because there is just too much on the line. Being in the PL is really lucrative, to the point dropping out of it is a massive disaster, and there's more competitive teams than there are spaces in the PL for them. Teams can't really afford to be playing open, expressive football and risk not being competitive, when they can timewaste their way to a 0-0. Or even if they cn riskk being more expansive, often aren't brave enough to.
I can certainly see English teams closing the gap, because, in recent years, it's been hard to pick out where the improvement has been cming form in the PL. One year someone wins it, the next, they end up finishing midtable and another team who are no better than them win it in their place. This year, City are much better than anyone was last year. Chelsea I would say are little or no worse, United are better, Liverpool are better. There is visible improvement, which means the bar raises for anyone wishing to compete at the top end. Already this year whoever wins it (City) will be a better team than any PL winning side in about 5-6 years. Whoever finishes second will probably have to be better than any team who's won it in the last 3-4.
Top, Top, Top analysis, don't hold your breath expecting logic to take hold here,just a second guess
Not even an exaggeration
Interesting point about the PL and how there is too much on the line. There is certainly a lot of merit there. I agree that you can win the CL in a number of ways. I think however different styles has different ceilings and different levels of how durable they are in terms of longevity. The way Barcelona played for example, the ceiling of that which I'd argue they reached, is higher than anything else anybody could reach playing a different way. The combination of not giving you the ball and having enough movement and individual skill up front to get the goals is simply unbeatable when it is working at its fullest potential. The downside though is that it is also the hardest and most ambitious style of play meaning that most teams are only half successful playing it thankfully enough I'd say leaving room for compact organised teams to bother them once in a while.
Top analysis?Top, Top, Top analysis, don't hold your breath expecting logic to take hold here,just a second guess
I could easily turn that around and suggest based on his logic, the fact that Tottenham a team scraping for fourth place in the prem were so easily able to dispatch Real Madrid shows he was wrong.
Since I’ve made this thread all the English teams have gone through in the group stage, English teams are winning the Europa and the bottom teams in the Prem are having their players openly courted by City and others. Dortmund who I got told could win the Premier League quite handily have disappeared.
For anyone to view this thread as anything but a prime example of people getting the strength of the prem laughably wrong is amazing.
Even now instead of seeing that teams like Liverpool and Arsenal are potentially fighting for Europe they mention Burnley. It all becomes a bit embarrassing.
Wtf ? Those are mostly average to shit players.
I still can't believe people rate Dortmund so highly, they are not a great team yet I always see people speaking of them as if they are some continental powerhouse. They would not get top 4 in the Premier League.
Mostly pretty standard bottom-of-the- league players though. They’d make bottom clubs in Spain and Italy etc.
I didn't follow all the thread but if I understood well you used to justify the failure in Europe because in England there were too many games,and without the winter break(or Christmas rest in the case of Spain) the teams had to focus in the domestic competition,which was so strong and competitive that didn't allow distractions.
So,what happens if the english teams reach quarters in C.L? The winter break is not important anymore?.The local competition has decreased the level so they can afford Europe?.
Of course the investment has been huge but can the picture change in 1 season?
I still don't catch the point of comparing the bottom teams, which obviously are not being a problem for M.City
Why would you use Champions League as evidence? We established already last year, based on your strong arguments, that CL is not a good measure of teams quality at all. Why would they be good measure now when nothing has changed, other than the fact that English clubs have started to do better.
What is a measure is how competitive the league is and how many players you know. On the first it is clear that Serie A and La Liga are now miles ahead, literally light years, and on the second the fact that I asked my mate at work (Real Madrid fan) to name 5 players from Burnley team and he couldn't proves the regression of PL. Burnley are a top PL team. He could easily name 10-15 players from Atletico, Sevilla or even Villarreal who are La Liga equivalent of Burnley. It made me think. The shift in power has been immense.
Besides you cannot ignore the fact how tired Real Madrid were from playing a La Liga game the weekend before. It's much tougher to play in CL when you are in a competitive league. Same with Atletico, the vast improvement of La Liga and it's competitiveness has taken its toll on them too.
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English teams couldn't do well in CL because of how competitive the league was. It's not competitive this year therefore they are not as tired as they used to be and can play better.
La Liga and Serie A are very strong and very competitive this year. It has taken its toll on their CL games.