Mrs. Landingham and Debbie were great. Amy annoyed me a great deal but it's probably more due to the fact I find Mary-Louise Parker completely unbelievable as an intelligent character.
The West Wing
- Thread starter duffer
- Start date
Right but "our guests tonight are Mr. Something from Whatever Institute and the beautiful and talented CJ Cregg" or "blonde Republican sex kitten". The episodes are just littered with throwaway lines like that.
Mandy was the first to disappear without mention at the end of season one.
There were plenty of strong female characters, I think you might be reading a bit too much into a few things.
The 'blonde republican sex kitten' thing was meant to be about Sam bring a bit of an idiot with women more than anything else.
There were plenty of strong female characters, I think you might be reading a bit too much into a few things.
The 'blonde republican sex kitten' thing was meant to be about Sam bring a bit of an idiot with women more than anything else.
Yeah, I actually thought that it was just about his crush on her but then Bartlett actually said it to her! I wish I had documented it. Sure there are strong female characters but there is a lot of casual sexism too.
yea Bartlett said it almost verbatim which was kind of the joke because she'd just been dancing around in a dressing gown half drunk! If I'm remembering right?Mrs Landingham
Debbie Fiderer
Nancy McNally
CJ
Mrs Bartlett
Amy
Kate Harper
All strong/high powered/intelligent female characters that jump to mind.
Debbie Fiderer
Nancy McNally
CJ
Mrs Bartlett
Amy
Kate Harper
All strong/high powered/intelligent female characters that jump to mind.
Nah the sex kitten thing happened months later after she had proved her worth.
Was it when she tried to use Leo's closet as a bathroom?
Thinking about it, don't you think that might be a fair representation of US politics, and politics as a whole really? Wouldn't surprise me if casual sexism was very common in that milieu actually.
I've just checked and it was when she was dancing around half drunk - don't make me question my West Wing knowledge!
No that was her initial meeting I think.
I don't think Sorkin is remotely nuanced enough to be making that point. I actually skipped "These Women" on purpose because I remembered his cringy it was. Plus he wrote The Newdroom, which I think vindicates my opinion
Her dancing in the robe is the first time she meets the President, which is because Sam set it up and that's when he said the sex kitten thing.
Then she was so mortified she asked Sam to set up another introduction, which was Leo's office when she went into his closet thinking it was a bathroom.
Then she was so mortified she asked Sam to set up another introduction, which was Leo's office when she went into his closet thinking it was a bathroom.
Hmm, I'll look it up when I get home. I decided to re-watch it because the overwhelming awfulness of The Newsroom made me question whether The WestWing was actually good in the first place. It's still excellent, but the casual sexism is rife.
Meh, not sure. You've kind of decided it was sexist and are trying to fit arguments that suit that idea I feel. Also, I don't see how it's particularly 'nuanced' to transcribe an overall atmosphere that they would be aware of (either Sorkin or anyone else on his team).
I'm not saying there's no casual sexism in it, and I think there's most probably some sexist characters in there (off the top of my head, I'd say Leo was probably a mysogynistic character), but I'm not sure as a whole the show is, unless you think moments of casual sexism make it a sexist show. I think the strong female characters kind of counterbalance any negativity there could be on this point.
I haven't decided anything. I started re watching it and aft
er the fifth or sixth sexist remark, I noticed a trend. I don't think strong female characters is a good shield against my criticisms. It's possible to be casually sexist, as Sorkin surely is with his tendency toward mansplaining and unequal treatment of hobbies shows. (Sports are treated as important and worthy but celebrity magazines are frivolous and awful, for example.)
As I said, I don't deny there's casual sexism, at all.
Are you saying only men like sport and women are all interested in celebrity gossip?
You sexist pig!
Listen here internet girls
Casual sexism? Much less than in pretty much every other Tv show I can think of and less than in real life.
What's your point? It presents itself as idealistic and its characters as the moral leaders. If Sorkin was trying to make a point about the sexism, he would have characters be sexist and then someone would call them out on it. That never happens.
Off the top of my head, Parks and Rec is much less sexist.
Off the top of my head, Parks and Rec is much less sexist.
Yeah but Boobies is a fascist.
Apart from the episode where exactly that happens, when the temp calls Sam out on his comment about Ainsley being 'enough to make a good dog break its leash'.
Then there's the whole conversation about different brands of feminism.
Yeah and then Ainsley scolds the temp! Sorkin, through Ainsley, says that objectifying women isn't "honest to god sexual harassment".
Basically he seems to believe in equal rights while wanting to retain the privilege of commenting on women's looks without being criticized for it.
Characters like Josh are idealistic but it was totally in character for him to mock Sam about getting "beat by a girl" when he had a bad showing on that TV show with Ainsley.
My point is that The West Wing is an odd choice for you to start "White Knighting" about.
How is it "White Knighting"? I'm currently re-watching a show that I enjoy and I noticed something that is worthy of discussion. What is odd is that a minor critique is getting so much criticism.
West Wing was a leftie love fest.
I enjoyed it but it would never be anywhere near my favourite ever show
I enjoyed it but it would never be anywhere near my favourite ever show
Because he wasn't objectifying her, which was the point.
He was.
So complimenting a woman on her looks is objectifying her no matter what?
In a workplace? Id say so.
This is the dialogue from that episode:
". . .I think you think I'm made out of candy glass. . . ." Ainsley argues back. "If someone says something that offends you, tell them, but all women don't have to think alike. . . . I like when the guys tease me. It's an inadvertent show of respect; I'm part of the team, and I don't mind it when it gets sexual. And you know what, I like sex. . . . I don't think whatever sexuality I have diminishes my power. I think it enhances it."
"And what kind of feminism do you call that?" Celia asks.
"My kind."
". . .Isn't the point," Celia says, "that Sam wouldn't have been able to find another way to be chummy with a woman that wasn't sexually appealing?"
"He would be able to, but that isn't the point. The point is that sexual revolution tends to get in the way of actual revolution. Nonsense issues distract attention away from real ones: pay equity, child care, honest-to-God sexual harassment and in this case a speech in front of the U.N. General Assembly,"
Is that sexist? It sounds like a discussion about sexism to me.
". . .I think you think I'm made out of candy glass. . . ." Ainsley argues back. "If someone says something that offends you, tell them, but all women don't have to think alike. . . . I like when the guys tease me. It's an inadvertent show of respect; I'm part of the team, and I don't mind it when it gets sexual. And you know what, I like sex. . . . I don't think whatever sexuality I have diminishes my power. I think it enhances it."
"And what kind of feminism do you call that?" Celia asks.
"My kind."
". . .Isn't the point," Celia says, "that Sam wouldn't have been able to find another way to be chummy with a woman that wasn't sexually appealing?"
"He would be able to, but that isn't the point. The point is that sexual revolution tends to get in the way of actual revolution. Nonsense issues distract attention away from real ones: pay equity, child care, honest-to-God sexual harassment and in this case a speech in front of the U.N. General Assembly,"
Is that sexist? It sounds like a discussion about sexism to me.
That's not the sexist part. The sexist part was Sam's comment, that discussion is Sorkin setting up the bowling pins exactly as he wants them in an attempt to justify Sam's sexism.
I would be surprised if this wasn't a direct response to someone who called him out. See, Lemon Lyman.
I would be surprised if this wasn't a direct response to someone who called him out. See, Lemon Lyman.
It's unfair and dishonest to look at Sam's comment in isolation without Ainsleys response to it. Sorkin wrote it all to make a point. He's not written Ainsley's response to justify Sam's comment, he's written Sam's comment so that he could have Ainsley give her opinion on it.
Also, there are a ton of people (myself included) who have complimented a colleague based on how they look and there are a ton of people (myslef included) who enjoy receiving compliments based on how they look.
Also, there are a ton of people (myself included) who have complimented a colleague based on how they look and there are a ton of people (myslef included) who enjoy receiving compliments based on how they look.
I don't think I am looking at it in isolation. I just don't think Ainsley's defense stands up to scrutiny.
A large number of people doing something doesn't make it right. I'm sure Sam's character had good intentions but making comments like that in a workplace, especially with a superior/inferior dynamic, is casual sexism.
And it was worth bumping the thread for a what you perceive as a casual sexist remark?
Eboue you need to get a grip buddy
Eboue you need to get a grip buddy
I can see your point about casual sexism in the workplace.
That Sorkin wrote scenes about casual sexism is not casually sexist. If Ainsley was wearing a bikini and eating a banana when she was giving her opinion, I'd maybe agree with you.
Worth bumping the thread? Yeah, of course it fecking was. It's not like I wrote an essay on it. I don't even understand your point.
I think there is a misunderstanding. I don't think anything Ainsley said was sexist. It's fine to discuss whether the original mark was sexist. In my opinion, it was.
I think that part of the representation of women in the show is due to this. @Eboue 's assumption about Sorkin not being nuanced enough discredits Sorkin's storytelling a bit in my opinion. The sexism that's constantly been discussed about this show isn't about the way women are talked about in the show or the portrayal of sexism in politics, but rather how the female protagonists (and minor roles) behave, and that's something that lessened after Sorkin exited the show.
It's worth rewatching the "These Women"-episode with that perspective in mind.
That being said, it's still my favourite show, ever!
EDIT: I started writing this in the morning, before all the other posts about the discussions were made, and forgot to hit send. I realize the points I raise may have been discussed during the day. I haven't had time to read though them all.
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