No, England has benefited Greatly from ridiculously easy brackets in this year’s euro and the last World Cup
This is what Southgate played for
- Thread starter ivaldo
- Start date
This is by far one of the worst managerial performance/decision I’ve have ever seen in a major cup final game.
Italy were comfortably the better side today, England were fortunate it went to penalties
Grealish would have been my sub and I think we would have kept the clean sheet (playing with 11 men would have helped straight away) but obviously that's just my opinion, we might have got beaten in normal time we will never know. What I take issue with is you You defending Southgate saying " The personnel wasn't there to change the situation against teams of the class of Italy "
One thing we do know is that doing nothing certainly isn't going to change the whole flow of the game. He's a coward and didn't change anything when it was obvious something needed changing. Especially when you consider this Italy team isn't even that good without Spinazzola raiding down the left flank.
I haven't liked him since he got praised to high heaven for getting out of a piss easy group, drawing with Columbia and then beating Sweeden in the World cup. He plays shit cowardly football and gets beat or hangs on to a draw against any team that isn't fodder.
The good teams he's played in getting to the World cup semi Final and Euro final are Belgium twice, Croatia (World cup), Germany and Italy, he's won one of them and is treated like a god.
Mount was horrendous all game and should have been subbed off at 70th minute or something or whenever Italy got the equalizer. Bringing on Saka ahead of Sancho was just a bizarre choice altogether, I can understand not bringing Rashford as he hasn't been great in last two months or so but Sancho had a world class end to the season. Italy outplayed them quite heavily in the second half. Poor game management.
I disagree, Southgate never planned for an early goal. He didn't know how to deal with it!
Look at Italy's subs, how many of those subbed on even get in England's squad, other than Locatelli?
Barella for Cristante 54 minutes
Immobile for Berardi 55 minutes
Chiesa for Bernardeschi 86 minutes
Insigne for Belotti 90 minutes
Verratti for Locatelli 96 minutes
Emerson for Florenzi 118 minutes
Meanwhile, over at the Ole and Gareth school of "let's not rock the boat and play for pens"...
Trippier for Saka 70 minutes
Mount for Grealish 99 minutes
Rice for Henderson 74 minutes for Rashford 120 minutes
Walker for Sancho 120 minutes
That is the difference between a top class coach who wins trophies and a mediocre one who never will, in a nutshell.
Barella for Cristante 54 minutes
Immobile for Berardi 55 minutes
Chiesa for Bernardeschi 86 minutes
Insigne for Belotti 90 minutes
Verratti for Locatelli 96 minutes
Emerson for Florenzi 118 minutes
Meanwhile, over at the Ole and Gareth school of "let's not rock the boat and play for pens"...
Trippier for Saka 70 minutes
Mount for Grealish 99 minutes
Rice for Henderson 74 minutes for Rashford 120 minutes
Walker for Sancho 120 minutes
That is the difference between a top class coach who wins trophies and a mediocre one who never will, in a nutshell.
I cannot get over how he hung his young players out to dry in the shootout like that. Of all people!
i have never thought Southgate should have taken the sixth penalty in 96. Easy in hindsight but Ince, Anderton, Mcmanaman, even Adams, all could have gone ahead of him. You’d think Southgate would know therefore to put his players in the best situation for a shoot out, protect his players. Instead he sends two guys in cold and then it’s all up to a 19year old terrified kid. Now, maybe no one else stepped up and Saka had to go, in which case shame on the senior players, and also did he have to go 5th?
but even if that’s the case, it’s still in Southgate’s control to not have Rashford and Sancho shooting cold. If Sterling isn’t taking one he could come off in ET. Both Rashford and Sancho could/should have gotten 10/15 minutes to play into the game. Italy are missing their two main attacking threats and Verratti, they are there to be attacked. And he played for penalties with awful penalty prep and against a penalty saving machine in goal for Italy. What pathetic management.
i have never thought Southgate should have taken the sixth penalty in 96. Easy in hindsight but Ince, Anderton, Mcmanaman, even Adams, all could have gone ahead of him. You’d think Southgate would know therefore to put his players in the best situation for a shoot out, protect his players. Instead he sends two guys in cold and then it’s all up to a 19year old terrified kid. Now, maybe no one else stepped up and Saka had to go, in which case shame on the senior players, and also did he have to go 5th?
but even if that’s the case, it’s still in Southgate’s control to not have Rashford and Sancho shooting cold. If Sterling isn’t taking one he could come off in ET. Both Rashford and Sancho could/should have gotten 10/15 minutes to play into the game. Italy are missing their two main attacking threats and Verratti, they are there to be attacked. And he played for penalties with awful penalty prep and against a penalty saving machine in goal for Italy. What pathetic management.
Excellent post.
Mount was horrendous all night and Rice was one of their best players. Southgate made horrible subs.
He reminds me a lot of Ole tbh. Sound bloke, excellent man manager but a below average tactician.
Mancini brought the best out of what is far from being a vintage Italy squad, while Southgate messed up horribly with his selections and game management. I guarantee that if the roles were reversed and Mancini was in charge of that England squad today, England would've won that game in 90 minutes comfortably.
The negative mindset needs to go, and considering England's poor record at pens they should be trying to win games in the 120 minutes at least.
We have so much amazing attacking talent that it seems ridiculous we’d play with such a negative mindset. We have the players to keep possession and toy with the opposition but they were all sat on the bench (Grealish, Foden, Sancho) Southgate reverted us to 90’s long ball England where we were scrapping for our lives due to being technically inferior. Southgate is a dinosaur
England scored 11 goals in 7 matches. Take the Ukraine game out and it's 7 in 6.
For a team with Kane, Grealish, Sancho, Sterling, etc, that played almost their games at home with supporters.
You have to absolutely hate football if you think this is a good job.
For a team with Kane, Grealish, Sancho, Sterling, etc, that played almost their games at home with supporters.
You have to absolutely hate football if you think this is a good job.
Rashford/Sancho/Grealish would be acceptable as a starting front line for most teams, that's the quality of attacking options he had. up against 36 year old CBs who have been shaky all season, and a substitute left back. Run at them!
Yes, midfield was definitely outclassed, but he didn't try Bellingham either.
I thought England could win it from the bench rather than the other way around.
Yes, midfield was definitely outclassed, but he didn't try Bellingham either.
I thought England could win it from the bench rather than the other way around.
The players are, what Löw made them play was not. He outsouthgated Southgate.
I never rated Southgate as a manager and he's been incredibly lucky in the draws we've got. However, I was prepared to be proven wrong and kept an open mind in the final.
He fecked up with all of the subs and the in game management was so poor. We had a real chance to win this after surprising Italy in the 2nd minute. What a wasted opportunity.
He fecked up with all of the subs and the in game management was so poor. We had a real chance to win this after surprising Italy in the 2nd minute. What a wasted opportunity.
This approach is fine when you're winning but as soon as your not the criticism will rightfully come along.
One of the most bizarre streams of praise he's been getting is around his apparent squad management when he's clearly had his favourites and refused to change them even when they're clearly not contributing or obviously knackered.
He's mourinho without the shithousery and spite
He'll get another tourney, hopefully by that point he'll be a little braver though personally I wouldn't be surprised to see the exact same line ups
One of the most bizarre streams of praise he's been getting is around his apparent squad management when he's clearly had his favourites and refused to change them even when they're clearly not contributing or obviously knackered.
He's mourinho without the shithousery and spite
He'll get another tourney, hopefully by that point he'll be a little braver though personally I wouldn't be surprised to see the exact same line ups
I don't buy that though, he didn't have to play two holding mids and Mount as the midfield when playing 5 at the back
. We only played this team and formation against Germany, the rest of the tournament, it was the 4-3-3 or however you want to frame it. I'm not asking him to go gung ho, simply more like what he'd been playing for the majority of the tournament.
I think your last point is good about the general job he's done, but it's becoming obvious where his limitations are and will continue to be. I would wager a fair bit we won't win anything with him in charge, every big game we've played he's set up first and foremost to not lose. It's clear he has personnel preferences and doesn't use his squad in tournaments. You don't have to be a Pep style manger to use your subs and squad.
This
This is where I am.
He's not Mourinho. Mourinho gets a 1-0 lead and sees his midfield being overrun, he has no issues going to a full 6-3-1.
Southgate saw Mancini's tactical change, saw Italy flood the midfield and did nothing. It was obvious we needed an extra body in there to clog things up. Instead he went for a like for like with Henderson and Rice.
This is my issue with Southgate. At the last World Cup against Croatia, then again last night, we took the lead. All we needed to do both times was manage the games.
His ugly football may well have delivered for us, if he was just able to react to what happens in game.
Good post.
Should be an inquest into Southgate's bizzare obsession with Saka. This is like bringing a 15 year old Rashford into a Euro final. How the feck he gets ahead of Sancho, Rashford, Foden and Grealish?
And then he puts him to take the 5th pen. A kid from Arsenal. Southgate is such a twat.
And then he puts him to take the 5th pen. A kid from Arsenal. Southgate is such a twat.
During press conferences, do journos never ask these questions ?
England had a very good tournament. I don't see any reason to be overly harsh on Southgate, but yeah, you want to - now that a solid foundation has been built - start expanding your horizons. To win a tournament with a midfield of Rice, Mount and that Leeds fellow would have been something, but that's not enough quality in a key area of the pitch. Given the semi final finish and now the runner up finish, it's the perfect time to try to make a progressive shift so that you can genuinely look to dominate the better sides. The main challenge will be that you don't really have great CMs coming through.
Wrt to this game, it's not just the soaking up pressure tactic, it's the inability to be a threat while doing that. France won the WC by playing a pragmatic style of football but once they get the ball they hit you with speed, technique and efficiency. They got some big luck against Croatia for sure, but you always felt they could hurt their opponents. England, after taking the lead, basically became toothless in attack. You shouldn't just sit back, it has to be a combination of absorbing pressure and some quality moments on the break that scare your opponents.
Wrt to this game, it's not just the soaking up pressure tactic, it's the inability to be a threat while doing that. France won the WC by playing a pragmatic style of football but once they get the ball they hit you with speed, technique and efficiency. They got some big luck against Croatia for sure, but you always felt they could hurt their opponents. England, after taking the lead, basically became toothless in attack. You shouldn't just sit back, it has to be a combination of absorbing pressure and some quality moments on the break that scare your opponents.
I do think Southgate is aware of this England team's limitations in the middle of the pitch, therefore setting the team up the way he does. England have world class firepower and a back four/five as good as anyone else's, but to be fully in control of your own destiny in major tournaments you need to have a dominant midfield and with the options England have in this department it's always going to be a tough ask.
Definitely, but I don't think this England side is that amazing or anything. The midfield is really mediocre and the biggest talents - Kane and Shaw aside - are very young. Of course Southgate isn't a great manager, but we all know that. There's absolutely no comparison, between Mancini and him, for example.
What's our take on Roberto Mancini Managing Mancherster United if Ole Doesn't work out?
I like the looks of him, Always calm, looks very assured, looks like he know every bit of what he's doing, not to mention he's a proven winner too.
I think we should be looking at him!
I like the looks of him, Always calm, looks very assured, looks like he know every bit of what he's doing, not to mention he's a proven winner too.
I think we should be looking at him!
This just sums up why England lost imo.
"Germany must be good because they're Germany" - they are a crap side right now.
England lost because Italy already knew they would win. England, Belgium and France are the three best teams in Europe on paper - England should have won that match, but they're too busy trying to put the ghosts of the past to bed rather than winning.
A proven winner, I'd be happy with it!
Can't help thinking that Greenwood, Foden, Rashford and Sancho's bromance has irritated Southgate who has then gone on to pick "his men" - and inevitably failed with inferior players. Mount and Saka are good players but they're not in Sancho or Foden's stratosphere. So strange to watch England get dominated so hard by a side they are better than, man for man.
First paragraph is spot on. If you ask me this 'looking for a scapegoat' mentality that England fans have is stupid and toxic. If I were English and a proper England fan I'd have no complaints: comfortably beating the likes of Croatia, Germany, deserving winners against Denmark, fighting toe to toe right until the very end against an excellent Italy side with the whole weight of the country's expectations resting on the players' shoulders, I wouldn't actually be surprised if England go all the way next year if they manage to find better midfield options.
England are due a major trophy and I think they'll get one soon-ish. With tournament football, as long as you get yourself in the mix at the latter stages you're in with a chance, and with the talent England have I reckon they'll be in that mix in future tournaments for at least a solid decade.
This is all on Southgate. feck anybody trying to stick up for him or acting like we should be grateful that we even made it this far. We got there in spite of him not because of him. Absolutely terrible management of this squad.
This is where the issue is though.
We started well, then as the game went on our forwards got isolated.
It allowed Italy to keep building attack after attack, the momentum changed and the pressure built.
Just before half time we were starting to hang on, I thought he'd change it at half time. Nope.
We then spent the next 25 minutes (45-70) defending, sitting in front of our box. We'd defend an attack and then hoof it forwards to nobody.
ANYBODY could see it wasn't working, something had to be changed - but what did he do? he waits until they finally get a goal back, THEN makes the necessary changes
So what happens after he made the changes? strangely enough we finally start getting back up the pitch and challenging them.
IF ONLY he had half a brain and actually made those changes at 1-0, we could have probably ground the game out and either knicked another on the counter or kept the scoreline.
Then we talk about the rest of the subs, just awful decisions all over. Mount and Sterling should never stayed on the pitch that long, Saka being the first sub was crazy also, he looked like a deer in the headlights.
Exactly. He's a coward.
Still crazy that even in extra time and with England’s penalty record (and Italy’s keeper), that he didn’t just throw caution to the wind and just go for it with his incredible bench of attacking talent.
That’s some seriously special kind of managerial cowardice.
I said this in the thread praising Southgate after the Denmark game. He is a defensive manager and is too scared to make attacking changes. He has no plan B and has lucked out with the draws in his competitions.
I argued this for ever and a day with friends and got called stupid. Then all game they were questioning Southgate - a bit different when up against a good team bossing you and not Ukraine or Denmark
I argued this for ever and a day with friends and got called stupid. Then all game they were questioning Southgate - a bit different when up against a good team bossing you and not Ukraine or Denmark
England weren't creating much against Germany with the same formation but that all changed when Grealish came on for the second half. We desperately needed him to come on early on in the second to help keep hold of the ball and change the setup. After sitting off Italy in the later part of the first half allowing them to regroup and organize they came out in the second and had full control.
Southgate was more negative than in previous games trying to hold to an early goal and then penalties against a giant keeper throwing two cold attacking players under the bus in the last minute of extra time and a young Saka. He doubled down on negativity for the final. Such an awful waste of an opportunity.
Southgate was more negative than in previous games trying to hold to an early goal and then penalties against a giant keeper throwing two cold attacking players under the bus in the last minute of extra time and a young Saka. He doubled down on negativity for the final. Such an awful waste of an opportunity.
He's been tremendously lucky with 2 very open halves of the draw in 2 consecutive tournaments making getting to the latter stages relatively easy if you do the things Southgate is good at organising. Keep it tight at the back etc. But to win a tournament you also need to have the ability to take a risk and go for it, whether that is for a brief period in a game or for when you see your opponent flagging.
Everyone could see Italy in the ascendancy for 10 minutes before they scored as Chiesa moved positions. England did nothing. Then they get a break as Chiesa gets injured and goes off - the Italian team is disjointed and actually arguing with each other about taking shots from long range. Southgate puts on a 19 year old who faded rapidly in the last game and who proceeds to run around the pitch, trying to get involved, but consistently loses possession.
Now I can excuse making a mistake once...he would have hoped for Saka to be more effective, but he doesn't press home and try and win the game. Given Italy had dominated possession so much I don't understand why he felt England would have more energy than Italy in Extra time.
However Southgate is Lucky again - Italy for some reason seem to just sit back and play for penalties. So Gareth is surely going to go for it with an attacking substitutions...no he just brings on Grealish for Mount...leaving an exhausted Kane and Sterling on the pitch. So bring on a creative passer...but deny him any fresh legs to pass to other than the young guy who is off form.
if he had put on 3 subs - Grealish, Sancho and rashford....can you imagine the panic that would have created in the Italian defence! - they would have scored and won the game - and - if not - would have been warmed up enough to take penalties properly.
At the next World cup if Southgate is in charge we will fail hard unless he gets lucky with the draw once again. I think his actions will mean some players have lost their confidence in him for making such basic errors. We will get a tougher draw and get turfed out early and another generation of skilful players will have been wasted by another FA stuffed shirt in a suit.
Everyone could see Italy in the ascendancy for 10 minutes before they scored as Chiesa moved positions. England did nothing. Then they get a break as Chiesa gets injured and goes off - the Italian team is disjointed and actually arguing with each other about taking shots from long range. Southgate puts on a 19 year old who faded rapidly in the last game and who proceeds to run around the pitch, trying to get involved, but consistently loses possession.
Now I can excuse making a mistake once...he would have hoped for Saka to be more effective, but he doesn't press home and try and win the game. Given Italy had dominated possession so much I don't understand why he felt England would have more energy than Italy in Extra time.
However Southgate is Lucky again - Italy for some reason seem to just sit back and play for penalties. So Gareth is surely going to go for it with an attacking substitutions...no he just brings on Grealish for Mount...leaving an exhausted Kane and Sterling on the pitch. So bring on a creative passer...but deny him any fresh legs to pass to other than the young guy who is off form.
if he had put on 3 subs - Grealish, Sancho and rashford....can you imagine the panic that would have created in the Italian defence! - they would have scored and won the game - and - if not - would have been warmed up enough to take penalties properly.
At the next World cup if Southgate is in charge we will fail hard unless he gets lucky with the draw once again. I think his actions will mean some players have lost their confidence in him for making such basic errors. We will get a tougher draw and get turfed out early and another generation of skilful players will have been wasted by another FA stuffed shirt in a suit.
What disappoints me is their two ageing centre halves were both on bookings having committed poor cynical fouls yet we never tried in the last 20 minutes of extra time to stretch them with our fresh legs and all our pace. The option was there to go and win the game yet Southgate preferred to sit tight and try and win a shootout ultimately. That’s the difference.
100%
We saw against Spain they struggled with speed and movement in around them.
We should have started 4-2-3-1 in the first place, let Sterling and Saka buzz around them. Bring Sancho and Grealish in once they tired out.
Instead we sat there for 120 minutes with just 3/5 subs used. Absolutely uselss manager.
Lets be honest England had the best squad in the tournament, and it was completely under utilised. If Spain had these players they'd win at a canter.