Film Thor: Love and Thunder

[Norman Brownbutter]

My issue with this is the King Valkyrie shit, and not for the identity politicking reasons you might think

No, my issue is why is a woman who sold people into slavery for feck knows how long, being handed the throne of Asgard? Are we supposed to have forgotten this characters back story? Are we supposed to just say "Its ok, its only a comic book movie. Dont think too hard about it.."? Shouldnt we be getting a bit more to the old redemption arc than just "Im drunk, Im a slave trader. Im less drunk, Im helping this guy out for reasons...Im not drunk, and Im bored of ruling all of these people"?

 

[Shane88]

My issue with this is the King Valkyrie shit, and not for the identity politicking reasons you might think

No, my issue is why is a woman who sold people into slavery for feck knows how long, being handed the throne of Asgard? Are we supposed to have forgotten this characters back story? Are we supposed to just say "Its ok, its only a comic book movie. Dont think too hard about it.."? Shouldnt we be getting a bit more to the old redemption arc than just "Im drunk, Im a slave trader. Im less drunk, Im helping this guy out for reasons...Im not drunk, and Im bored of ruling all of these people"?

It's Marvel toss so yes.

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

It's Marvel toss so yes.

but you just know shes gonna start preaching morality shit at some point. And its gonna pretty hard taking a morality lesson from a slaver...

But, you are right of course. Oh well.

 

[atkar83]

Reducing the God of Thunder to an overweight, drunken, snivelling, baffoonish character who just wanted the chance to prove himself again in Endgame was both an embarrassment and a disgrace as well as nerfing the Hulk. I don't think I like the tone that this film is taking with his character again but we will see.

Ragnarok was such a great movie but they had to stray drastically from that, didn't they. Fools!

Its way too hard to write storylines where characters are otherwise invincible. Superman is boring because nothing technically can beat him. Hulk was overpowered in the first Avengers, they had to figure out ways to write around that, same with Thor. They did about as good as you can do when you have to write for so many other characters too.

 

[Zarlak]

My issue with this is the King Valkyrie shit, and not for the identity politicking reasons you might think

No, my issue is why is a woman who sold people into slavery for feck knows how long, being handed the throne of Asgard? Are we supposed to have forgotten this characters back story? Are we supposed to just say "Its ok, its only a comic book movie. Dont think too hard about it.."? Shouldnt we be getting a bit more to the old redemption arc than just "Im drunk, Im a slave trader. Im less drunk, Im helping this guy out for reasons...Im not drunk, and Im bored of ruling all of these people"?

I think you're thinking a bit too deeply into it. Her redemption arc was that she helped save her entire people from the Goddess of Death. Not really 'helping this guy out for reasons'. Tony Stark was an arms dealer ffs and he's beloved and the face of the MCU. Hawkeye went on a full on murder rampage, Antman and all of the GotG are criminals. God knows the Atrocities that Gamora and Nebula committed for Thanos that no-one cares about. Their redemption arcs were even less 'for reasons.' Seems like a bit of a nitpicky thing to have such an issue with. Scarlet Witch enslaved an entire town inside their own minds to the point where it was driving them crazy and Loki tried to subjugate all of Earth and no-one has an issue. "He killed 80 people in 2 days" "Err, he’s adopted?" and laughs all round.

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

I think you're thinking a bit too deeply into it. Her redemption arc was that she helped save her entire people from the Goddess of Death. Not really 'helping this guy out for reasons'. Tony Stark was an arms dealer ffs and he's beloved and the face of the MCU. Hawkeye went on a full on murder rampage, Antman and all of the GotG are criminals. God knows the Atrocities that Gamora and Nebula committed for Thanos that no-one cares about. Their redemption arcs were even less 'for reasons.' Seems like a bit of a nitpicky thing to have such an issue with. Scarlet Witch enslaved an entire town inside their own minds to the point where it was driving them crazy and Loki tried to subjugate all of Earth and no-one has an issue. "He killed 80 people in 2 days" "Err, he’s adopted?" and laughs all round.

So you agree its a running problem?

Tony Stark was an arms dealer, but not the illegal kind. Sure, thats probably splitting hairs, but its a hair thats need split.

Hawkeye murdered criminals, theres an argument to be made that killing bad guys is kinda what they all do, no?

Antman and GotG are thieves, and they arent being given the power over an entire race of people.

Gamora and Nebula, probably mass murderers. But again, no one is giving them power over an entire race. No one is holding them up to be worthy as a ruler.

Scarlet Witch should be in a jail cell at the very least. I have MASSIVE issues with the "They'll never know what you gave up" line at the end of that show.

Loki, again, no one is giving him the crown of Asgard. Giving it to him would be just as problematic as it is giving it to Valkyrie. Imagine how ridiculous it would be seeing loki giving a morality speech to his people with a straight face. Imagine Scarlet Witch giving a lecture about how its bad to enslave people. Imagine Antman or the guardians giving a speech about respecting other peoples property.

Theres also the issue that while all of these characters have highly questionable backgrounds. None of them have hundreds of years of doing those things, unlike Valkyrie. Who may in fact have been enslaving people for many thousands of years. Perhaps even hundreds of thousands of years. When Thor and Loki arrived on Sakaar, they exited the bifrost separated by a few seconds yet arrived separated by a couple of weeks. If we assume earth/Asgard time moves at a rate of say 10 secs = 1 week, its pretty easy to assume that Valkyrie has been there for so long that she might be the oldest living being we have met so far in the MCU. In any rate, Hela defeated the Valkyries more than 2000 years before she was released by Odins death. Valkyrie exiled herself on Sakaar at that time. So at a minium she has been enslaving people for 2000 years. 2000 years of being a dick seems like it would need more than one or two bit parts in movies to get that redemption arc to come good. No?

 

[Zarlak]

So you agree its a running problem?

Tony Stark was an arms dealer, but not the illegal kind. Sure, thats probably splitting hairs, but its a hair thats need split.

It is splitting hairs, as Valkyrie appeared to be a legal slaver on that planet so if you're drawing a distinction with legality rather than morality then there's even less of an argument. I poised my post to you entirely from a morality stand point.

Hawkeye murdered criminals, theres an argument to be made that killing bad guys is kinda what they all do, no?

Murder is moral if it's bad people? That's a whole other argument.

Gamora and Nebula, probably mass murderers. But again, no one is giving them power over an entire race. No one is holding them up to be worthy as a ruler.

Scarlet Witch should be in a jail cell at the very least. I have MASSIVE issues with the "They'll never know what you gave up" line at the end of that show.

Loki, again, no one is giving him the crown of Asgard. Giving it to him would be just as problematic as it is giving it to Valkyrie. Imagine how ridiculous it would be seeing loki giving a morality speech to his people with a straight face. Imagine Scarlet Witch giving a lecture about how its bad to enslave people. Imagine Antman or the guardians giving a speech about respecting other peoples property.

I think you might need to do some research into royal families and how they came to exist.

But that's besides the point, the point being that lots of the MCU heroes we cheer for have extremely problematic backgrounds. It's not new, and we don't feel guilty for it so it isn't really any different with Valkyrie. The Time Keepers literally erase people from existence if they sneeze when they weren't supposed to and here we all are cheering on Owen Wilson.

 

[RedBanker]

I get the point you're trying to make but I wouldn't mind if it's just Thor shirtless for the entire 2.5 hours

Yep both the male and female ones.

 

[Donaldo]

So you agree its a running problem?

Tony Stark was an arms dealer, but not the illegal kind. Sure, thats probably splitting hairs, but its a hair thats need split.

Hawkeye murdered criminals, theres an argument to be made that killing bad guys is kinda what they all do, no?

Antman and GotG are thieves, and they arent being given the power over an entire race of people.

Gamora and Nebula, probably mass murderers. But again, no one is giving them power over an entire race. No one is holding them up to be worthy as a ruler.

Scarlet Witch should be in a jail cell at the very least. I have MASSIVE issues with the "They'll never know what you gave up" line at the end of that show.

Loki, again, no one is giving him the crown of Asgard. Giving it to him would be just as problematic as it is giving it to Valkyrie. Imagine how ridiculous it would be seeing loki giving a morality speech to his people with a straight face. Imagine Scarlet Witch giving a lecture about how its bad to enslave people. Imagine Antman or the guardians giving a speech about respecting other peoples property.

Theres also the issue that while all of these characters have highly questionable backgrounds. None of them have hundreds of years of doing those things, unlike Valkyrie. Who may in fact have been enslaving people for many thousands of years. Perhaps even hundreds of thousands of years. When Thor and Loki arrived on Sakaar, they exited the bifrost separated by a few seconds yet arrived separated by a couple of weeks. If we assume earth/Asgard time moves at a rate of say 10 secs = 1 week, its pretty easy to assume that Valkyrie has been there for so long that she might be the oldest living being we have met so far in the MCU. In any rate, Hela defeated the Valkyries more than 2000 years before she was released by Odins death. Valkyrie exiled herself on Sakaar at that time. So at a minium she has been enslaving people for 2000 years. 2000 years of being a dick seems like it would need more than one or two bit parts in movies to get that redemption arc to come good. No?

We're almost at peak Marvel on redcafe.net

 

[Pogue Mahone]

@Sweet Square

 

[Twins]

The real question is, how can a Ha'tak survive an attack from an Asgardian cruiser?

 

[DatIrishFella]

Stop arguing over live action cartoons, fellers.

 

[kouroux]

I'm starting to have my fill with all this Marvel content tbh. Too many things to keep up with

 

[The Boy]

I'm starting to have my fill with all this Marvel content tbh. Too many things to keep up with

Got to agree with this, I love the Thor and GotG films but I have given up on ever keeping up with all the TV series releases etc, it's just too much content and it seems in this phase, the TV series are equally important storywise as the films, it's too much - will definitely catch this though!

 

[RedPed]

DC are doing a much better job (apart from Wonder Woman 1984) but are not releasing enough material to gain any traction like Marvel did, though they have some good stuff coming up.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Got to agree with this, I love the Thor and GotG films but I have given up on ever keeping up with all the TV series releases etc, it's just too much content and it seems in this phase, the TV series are equally important storywise as the films, it's too much - will definitely catch this though!

I don't think they're equally important. They'll be referenced in a way where you'll know what's happened without having to watch. I imagine strange will say something along the lines of "In your grief you enslaved an entire town against their will." That's the gist of the entire series, you don't really need to watch it if you dont want to.

DC are doing a much better job (apart from Wonder Woman 1984) but are not releasing enough material to gain any traction like Marvel did, though they have some good stuff coming up.

DC are not doing a good job in their live action universe.

Their animated stuff I'll give you, but the dceu? Nah.

 

[RedPed]

I don't think they're equally important. They'll be referenced in a way where you'll know what's happened without having to watch. I imagine strange will say something along the lines of "In your grief you enslaved an entire town against their will." That's the gist of the entire series, you don't really need to watch it if you dont want to.

DC are not doing a good job in their live action universe.

Their animated stuff I'll give you, but the dceu? Nah.

That's your opinion and more power to you. The Justice League (Snyder Cut) is the best superhero movie to date. Can't wait to see what they do with Martian Manhunter. Wonder Woman and Man of Steel were excellent too and the new Batman has potential. Like I said they have some good stuff in the works too.

 

[SalfordRed18]

That's your opinion and more power to you. The Justice League (Snyder Cut) is the best superhero movie to date. Can't wait to see what they do with Martian Manhunter. Wonder Woman and Man of Steel were excellent too and the new Batman has potential. Like I said they have some good stuff in the works too.

The snyder cut is not even close to being "the best superhero film to date," whilst being good it's not even the best film in the DCEU let alone best to date. And on top of that it's not even canon.

There's far too much turd for them to be considered doing a good job. It's why they're releasing films outside their universe because their universe is a bit shit.

 

[Unam333]

Trailer's looking good. I like the more lighthearted and comical direction Thor is heading.

Natalie Portman's character was quite bland in previous movies, so I'm happy Jane becomes a Female Thor. The suit and overall appearance look promising.

Offtopic:
I have to agree, there are so many Marvel series coming out now, it's hard to become excited when a new drops on Disney Plus.

I only watched Wandavision, What If? and Falcon and Winter Soldier.

Loki I only watched the first episode (too much explaining and talking) and the Hawkeye series, for whatever reason, I stopped watching. Maybe I will pick it up later.

Moon Knight I've watched the first episode and I really enjoyed it.

 

[RedPed]

The snyder cut is not even close to being "the best superhero film to date," whilst being good it's not even the best film in the DCEU let alone best to date. And on top of that it's not even canon.

There's far too much turd for them to be considered doing a good job. It's why they're releasing films outside their universe because their universe is a bit shit.

The Marvel films are mainly dross where the characters are either overhyped or seriously dumbed down. But that's my opinion. You could have dispensed with 2/3 of the Marvel characters to date and it would have made any scrap of a difference.

 

[SalfordRed18]

The Marvel films are mainly dross where the characters are either overhyped or seriously dumbed down. But that's my opinion. You could have dispensed with 2/3 of the Marvel characters to date and it would have made any scrap of a difference.

Yeah okay, but back to the point DC aren't doing a good job by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[flameinthesun]

Yeah okay, but back to the point DC aren't doing a good job by any stretch of the imagination.

Yeah, its actually not even close between the MCU and DCEU. They are trying to salvage what they can in the DCEU with the flash reboot and even that now is delayed a couple years which is messing up their continuity as some of the films coming out before it was supposed to come out after. Think people really underestimate the job Marvel have done and are doing with the MCU and their continuity.

Regarding the tv shows they are designed so that you don't need to watch them to follow the movies. They are good if you want a bit more about certain characters (e.g. sam wilsons handling of becoming captain america, Loki coming to terms with being a good guy etc) but key changes, plot points etc will always be made in the films.

 

[cyberman]

Yeah okay, but back to the point DC aren't doing a good job by any stretch of the imagination.

Isn’t this a bit outdated? DC are on a bit of a run while I can’t remember the last Marvel film that I last enjoyed. It might be the last Thor movie
That last Spider-Man movie was pure shite, imo the OMG! reviews haven’t caught on to the fall in Marvel quality just yet

 

[FrankDrebin]

DC are on a run ?

 

[SalfordRed18]

Isn’t this a bit outdated? DC are on a bit of a run while I can’t remember the last Marvel film that I last enjoyed. It might be the last Thor movie
That last Spider-Man movie was pure shite, imo the OMG! reviews haven’t caught on to the fall in Marvel quality just yet

Not outdated at all they're not on any sort of run. The last film released was the suicide squad which I thought was fantastic. Before that was the re-release of justice league, the snyder cut which isn't even canon, so arguably shouldn't even be in the list. Better than the original but that's not hard. Before that was I think wonder Woman 1984 and birds of a prey.

That's like a united fan saying we're on the up because we beat Norwich. We got a win, we're still a shower of shite.

 

[flameinthesun]

Isn’t this a bit outdated? DC are on a bit of a run while I can’t remember the last Marvel film that I last enjoyed. It might be the last Thor movie
That last Spider-Man movie was pure shite, imo the OMG! reviews haven’t caught on to the fall in Marvel quality just yet

Of the last 4 MCU movies, Eternals was a flop and Black widow received average reviews.

Shang chi and Spiderman on the other hand got both very good critic reviews and audience scores. You may be confusing your dislike of the spiderman movie with the general consensus which is that it was a fun movie and hit.

Of the last 4 DCEU movies Suicide Squad recieved very good reviews and a good audience score, whilst both Wonder Woman and Birds of Prey both had bad reviews and audience scores. Snydercut received good reviews, though that was a re-release of one of the worst superhero movies ever. Adding on to the numerous delays and issues they are having withe DCEU, they definitely are not in a run.

In general MCU is doing what it does which is generally deliver good films both critically and with audiences.

 

[cyberman]

Not outdated at all they're not on any sort of run. The last film released was the suicide squad which I thought was fantastic. Before that was the re-release of justice league, the snyder cut which isn't even canon, so arguably shouldn't even be in the list. Better than the original but that's not hard. Before that was I think wonder Woman 1984 and birds of a prey.

That's like a united fan saying we're on the up because we beat Norwich. We got a win, we're still a shower of shite.

But before that there’s Joker, Aquaman and Shazam (which was weirdly good to watch)
Hell even The Batman is in the positive side

 

[SalfordRed18]

But before that there’s Joker, Aquaman and Shazam (which was weirdly good to watch)
Hell even The Batman is in the positive side

Half the films there aren't in the dceu which goes back to the point, they're releasing films outside their universe because their universe is a bit shit.

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

It is splitting hairs, as Valkyrie appeared to be a legal slaver on that planet so if you're drawing a distinction with legality rather than morality then there's even less of an argument. I poised my post to you entirely from a morality stand point.



Murder is moral if it's bad people? That's a whole other argument.



I think you might need to do some research into royal families and how they came to exist.

But that's besides the point, the point being that lots of the MCU heroes we cheer for have extremely problematic backgrounds. It's not new, and we don't feel guilty for it so it isn't really any different with Valkyrie. The Time Keepers literally erase people from existence if they sneeze when they weren't supposed to and here we all are cheering on Owen Wilson.

“Legal” slaver is questionable. Didn’t appear to be laws, just a dictator doing what he likes. Selling weapons isnt a bad thing on its own. Would selling weapons to Ukraine right now be a bad thing? Defence is a totally acceptable reason to sell someone weapons.

Murdering killers, rapists, traffickers… yes. I’d say it was. An extreme extension of defence of others. Not the reason Hawkeye did it, but again. No one is giving him a seat on a throne.

I would need to agree with the existence of royal families for your argument to hold water here. As far as I’m concerned they should all be stripped of everything and tossed out on the street. But that’s another discussion.

I agree, a lot of heroes that other people cheer for do have problematic backgrounds and leads to a very prominent issues with the current writing in marvel at the moment. Valkyrie is just the latest. And as I said she also has length of time doing said evil deeds going against her.
And as for the time keepers…are we cheering on Owen Wilson?I know he has that “oh gosh, I’m just a simple life loving guy from Texas” thing going on. But I didn’t get the impression we were rooting for him to become the king of time?

The problem your always going to have here is length of time and specifics of problem acts. Selling weapons, as I said, can be a good thing. Murder, can be a good thing. There are no scenarios where forcing people into slavery is a good thing.

 

[cyberman]

Half the films there aren't in the dceu which goes back to the point, they're releasing films outside their universe because their universe is a bit shit.

Yeah but it’s still DC?
Who knows, they might link them up later, you dont really need cameos and crossovers in every film to establish some kind of universe

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

Yep both the male and female ones.

I hear ya brotha.

 

[flameinthesun]

Yeah but it’s still DC?
Who knows, they might link them up later, you dont really need cameos and crossovers in every film to establish some kind of universe

They are completely separate from the dceu and each other. If the conversation is dceu v mcu then they are not in the convo, if its marvel v dc then everything is on the table from Nolans dark knight to raimi spiderman to Blade.

In general though the DCEU is on its last legs, they are trying to revive it with the flash which is supposed to act as a kind of reboot but that is having a huge amount of problems, partly due to ezra miller.

 

[Sweet Square]

@Sweet Square

 

[Zarlak]

They are completely separate from the dceu and each other. If the conversation is dceu v mcu then they are not in the convo, if its marvel v dc then everything is on the table from Nolans dark knight to raimi spiderman to Blade.

In general though the DCEU is on its last legs, they are trying to revive it with the flash which is supposed to act as a kind of reboot but that is having a huge amount of problems, partly due to ezra miller.

They're actually just starting to revamp the DCEU completely following the Discovery-Warner merger and the new CEO wanting to move towards a more Marvel type way of working with their own studios putting out the movies.

 

[Sylar]

Dceu is hot garbage. Putting a guy who in charge who puts in scenes to make trailers rather than a good movie was a mistake

Snyder cut was fun sure but tbh most super hero movies could be better if ya give them four freakin hours.
(And the advantage of seeing how it flopped the first time and being allowed to do reshoots)

I'm starting to have my fill with all this Marvel content tbh. Too many things to keep up with

I understand this point of view
But as a fan I won't agree as I want moooore

 

[kouroux]

Dceu is hot garbage. Putting a guy who in charge who puts in scenes to make trailers rather than a good movie was a mistake

Snyder cut was fun sure but tbh most super hero movies could be better if ya give them four freakin hours.
(And the advantage of seeing how it flopped the first time and being allowed to do reshoots)


I understand this point of view
But as a fan I won't agree as I want moooore

Snyder cut was overrated for me, the whole thing was a slow motion feck fest. It did my head in

 

[Gavinb33]

This is the one with female Thor right. Not looking forward for it. Hope they actually have a solid storyline and not just "women power" stuff for the sake of it. The woman power show in Endgame was a cringefest.

I mean lots to unpack here but i'll start with up until Ultron and then Captain Marvel there was 1 female avenger and the males were always the focus of all the movies and then the ladies get one scene and this is the reaction of some fans unbelievable.

As for this movie high hopes Taika Waititti is a hell of a filmmaker so this should be a belter

 

[Sylar]

Can't wait. Would be great if they don't do any more trailers. Just leave it at that...

 

[RedPed]

I mean lots to unpack here but i'll start with up until Ultron and then Captain Marvel there was 1 female avenger and the males were always the focus of all the movies and then the ladies get one scene and this is the reaction of some fans unbelievable.

As for this movie high hopes Taika Waititti is a hell of a filmmaker so this should be a belter

Quit it with the virtue signalling. It was a shitty move, totally cringe worthy and unnecessary. Should have expected it when the females tag-teamed to take out Proxima Midnight in Infinity War.

 

[flameinthesun]

Quit it with the virtue signalling. It was a shitty move, totally cringe worthy and unnecessary. Should have expected it when the females tag-teamed to take out Proxima Midnight in Infinity War.

What about it was virtue signalling? The same scene has been done in countless marvel films with male characters whether with cap and bucky, iron man and rhodey, or with mix groups with gotg, avengers etc. In nearly every superhero movie theres a scene like that when a set of superheroes get together, do a little posez say something quippy and then kick butt. This time they did it with women. As you said they did a similar thing in infinity war
Why would that be virtue signalling? I understand thinking the execution of the scene is cringy, but its not cringy because it featured only women.