Tyrone Mings stamp on Zlatan | He’s at it again

ManUchosenbosslvg

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Mugs, the FA already made it clear they're going to come down hard on him, appealing is just going to make the situation worse.
They can point to other examples of similar incidents which weren't seen at the time but punished based on video evidence and argue there's a level of punishment already set.

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In both these instances Liverpool and Chelsea appealed the violent conduct charge and still only received 3 match bans.

The FA could well draw a distinction between normal violent conduct and violent conduct that causes a risk to a players head, face, brain etc but then I don't know if there's anything in the rules that say they can. Zlatan obviously caused an impact to his head with the elbow too.
 

Kentonio

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In both these instances Liverpool and Chelsea appealed the violent conduct charge and still only received 3 match bans.
I don't remember the FA in either case coming out and saying they were asking for a harder punishment than the normal 3 matches due to the severity of the incident.
 

ManUchosenbosslvg

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I don't remember the FA in either case coming out and saying they were asking for a harder punishment than the normal 3 matches due to the severity of the incident.
They didn't as far as I know, but that's prob the reason Bournemouth are appealing. Violent conduct is obviously just a catch all phrase but is a stamp a stamp or is a head stamp more equal to a bite in terms of punishment? By giving 3 match bans for other stamps the FA have set a precedent therefore Bournemouth are probably right to ask the question.
 

Kentonio

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They didn't as far as I know, but that's prob the reason Bournemouth are appealing. Violent conduct is obviously just a catch all phrase but is a stamp a stamp or is a head stamp more equal to a bite in terms of punishment? By giving 3 match bans for other stamps the FA have set a precedent therefore Bournemouth are probably right to ask the question.
I just don't think they're doing themselves any favours, a head stamp is worse by any reasonable definition due to the risk of lethality. The only reason I can see for an appeal is the argument that it was accidental, which is presumably what the charge would determine anyway.
 

noodlehair

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I think Zlatan basically conned the ref, he tried to make the elbow look like it was part of his jump for the ball. The ref from his angle bought it but had a word with him about being careful with his elbows or something. He then watched it back and saw it was worse than he thought and puts that in his report.
I don't buy that. It was a blatant elbow and it's hard to understand how a supposed ref would see it differently. He either decided to ignore it at the time or isn't fit to be judging such incidents in the first place.

Due to the complete lack of transparity with football officiating, we'll never know though. Any other sport at the top level and you'd know straight away as you'd be able to hear the ref explain it..
 

noodlehair

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I just don't think they're doing themselves any favours, a head stamp is worse by any reasonable definition due to the risk of lethality. The only reason I can see for an appeal is the argument that it was accidental, which is presumably what the charge would determine anyway.
It goes to a panel of 3 I think and they all have to unanimously agree it was a red card...although they almost invariably do because as you said, the charge is only brought about after video evidence is reviewed by the referee and the FA.

I kind of think that except in the most rare of circumstance, appealing against a retrospective punishment is always frivolous. You're basically saying that the video is lying. Either that or trying to dictate to the FA how they should be allowed to apply their own rules. They can't even say it's due to the length of the ban because they don't know what the length is yet.

Arguing that a professional footballer who looks at someone's head and then happens to tread on it a second later, did so by accident, is an interesting one. Zlatan might as well by the same logic say that he wasn't able to control the movement of his own arm.
 

AlecHDR

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They can point to other examples of similar incidents which weren't seen at the time but punished based on video evidence and argue there's a level of punishment already set.

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In both these instances Liverpool and Chelsea appealed the violent conduct charge and still only received 3 match bans.

The FA could well draw a distinction between normal violent conduct and violent conduct that causes a risk to a players head, face, brain etc but then I don't know if there's anything in the rules that say they can. Zlatan obviously caused an impact to his head with the elbow too.
I really don't think they will look at it the same way because, as you said, a stamp on the head is very different from the cases you referenced.
 

redflair

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The problem in this game was that our friend Kevin let the shoulder barge on Phil Jones go early on - to show he was being ever so fair at Old Trafford - and it gave the green light for Bournemouth to spend most of the match in a thuggish frame of mind with borderline tackles and questionable challenges.

Mings tackle on Rooney, prior to the 'incidents', was a prime example of this. he deserved a straight red for that recklessless alone. Perhaps Luke Shaw - and later Zlatan - were the only ones to fight fire with fire but the Cherries were out of control for most of the afternoon.
 

ManUchosenbosslvg

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The problem in this game was that our friend Kevin let the shoulder barge on Phil Jones go early on - to show he was being ever so fair at Old Trafford - and it gave the green light for Bournemouth to spend most of the match in a thuggish frame of mind with borderline tackles and questionable challenges.

Mings tackle on Rooney, prior to the 'incidents', was a prime example of this. he deserved a straight red for that recklessless alone. Perhaps Luke Shaw - and later Zlatan - were the only ones to fight fire with fire but the Cherries were out of control for most of the afternoon.
I think Kevin Friend was shocking but it definitely maximised our chances of winning the game.

I don't recall a shoulder barge on Jones, was it shoulder to shoulder or in the back or what?

Obviously G Nev believed Zlat throwing Ming's was a red if the officials had seen it.

Surman prob shouldn't have seen any cards nevermind a red.

Ming's and Zlat should both have gone obviously, but I'm sure if Bournemouth had the choice they'd have preferred 10v10 to 11v10 for the rest of the match.

Thought the 2 penalty decisions were correct, ours just about but disagree with G Nev implying it was only given because of home crowd pressure on the ref.

Arter should have gone for a 2nd yellow for the careless slide on Pobga.

Friend has to stop the match for a head injury to Arter after he looked out cold after Pogba's shoulder smashed him accidentally, I mean just look at him. It's not up to the ref to wait for the ball to go out, in the case of a clear head injury he has to stop the match by the rules. Massive failure of his duty here. I don't know if he was worried about the crowd reaction or what but idiotic refereeing.


To add to the above Friend then constantly stopped the game allowing Bournemouth to waste time. He once stopped us taking a quick free kick on the edge of our box after a foul by Afobe who rolled around for a bit.

All round shot performance by Friend, but it should have allowed us to take the 3 points.
 

Jsquared

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The media is corrupt, as has been proven on far more serious issues than football over recent years.

And they do it by controlling the narrative, from the top down.

Yesterday, G.Nev, Carra and Henry were all agreed that the talking point was Mings' assault on another player's head - and they all agreed that Mings quite clearly knew what he doing. How could they not? The clip is actually shocking.

By the evening Danny Murphy's smirking on MOTD while insisting that Mings didn't do it on purpose, and by the next day the entire narrative is focused on an elbow foul that you see every week in about 5 games in the PL, and the most anyone is clearly allowed to say about Mings' assault is that 'only he knows'.

You can clearly see that the pundits saying 'only he knows' are actually saying, 'he meant it', but unlike Carra, Henry and G.Nev they aren't talking freely anymore.
This. The media these days, almost across the board, is garbage.

Will zlatan also be charged for his wrestling throw?

That wasn't a "wrestling throw", Zlatan shoved him, and Mings fell to the ground because of the force of the shove. You can see Mings obstructing him (a foul and a free kick), then Zlatan takes an extra step to set his hips for the shove, puts both arms under Mings' armpits for leverage, and gives him a "get the Eff off of me" shove. Mings tumbles. Zlatan could arguably have gotten yellow for that, retaliation is usually seen as worse than the initial foul.


Absolutely. I've dabbled in some martial arts and due to now unpleasant it is getting smacked in the head and how bad I was at it, I killed that pretty quickly.

All head shots aren't created equal though. Mings is going to be punished for how bad it could have been, not how bad it was. Which is all good but I did take issue to so many folks overstating the impact.
If someone shot at you with a handgun and missed, would you want them to have lesser punishment than if they had hit you in the arm? Idiocy. An elbow, whilst in the air and not able to use leverage against the ground for torso rotation, versus a downward stomp with the extra force of bodyweight and gravity. The first could give you a concussion, the second could kill you. The size of the leg muscles in most people means you can generate something like three times more force with a strike with the leg than with an arm. Martial arts should have taught you that.
 

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Friend has to stop the match for a head injury to Arter after he looked out cold after Pogba's shoulder smashed him accidentally, I mean just look at him. It's not up to the ref to wait for the ball to go out, in the case of a clear head injury he has to stop the match by the rules. Massive failure of his duty here. I don't know if he was worried about the crowd reaction or what but idiotic refereeing.
I don't blame Friend at all for that, considering he was right next to Arter, he could probably see he was just faking it (and he feckin' was).

Areter didn't get nearly enough shit for doing this by the way. We live in a time now where we've seen more then our fair share of really threatening injuries on the pitch - from people being legit knocked out to collapsing... and here's this feckin' idiot who, granted did take a knock to the head, but then felt like he'd pretend to be out cold just to get the match stopped? What kind of shit is that?

It completely triviliased all the other actual serious incidents we see, and he used those past incidents to try gain an advantage. It was the worst display of play-acting in the game, and there was quite a lot.
 

ManUchosenbosslvg

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I don't blame Friend at all for that, considering he was right next to Arter, he could probably see he was just faking it (and he feckin' was).

Areter didn't get nearly enough shit for doing this by the way. We live in a time now where we've seen more then our fair share of really threatening injuries on the pitch - from people being legit knocked out to collapsing... and here's this feckin' idiot who, granted did take a knock to the head, but then felt like he'd pretend to be out cold just to get the match stopped? What kind of shit is that?

It completely triviliased all the other actual serious incidents we see, and he used those past incidents to try gain an advantage. It was the worst display of play-acting in the game, and there was quite a lot.
I'm not convinced you're right here, even in the slow mo replay it was a heavy impact on his head with Pogba running at full pelt shoulder first into his jaw.

Anyway judging by Kevin Friends decision making who the hell is he to make medical assessments of players who received head impacts? If he saw the player takes a knock to the head then his responsibility is to stop the match and let trained medical staff make that decision. I've seen it done when players got hit on the head with the ball and nobody had any complaints. The opposition will give you back possession and the time will be added back on.
 

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I'm not convinced you're right here, even in the slow mo replay it was a heavy impact on his head with Pogba running at full pelt shoulder first into his jaw.

Anyway judging by Kevin Friends decision making who the hell is he to make medical assessments of players who received head impacts? If he saw the player takes a knock to the head then his responsibility is to stop the match and let trained medical staff make that decision. I've seen it done when players got hit on the head with the ball and nobody had any complaints. The opposition will give you back possession and the time will be added back on.
The fact that he continued playing without issue is a pretty surefire indicator that he wasn't knocked out, as well as the fact that when the treatment did come and he wasn't knocked out... so he clearly made a choice to pretend to be knocker out like that, which I think frankly is ridiculous.

Yeah, Friend probably should have stopped the game, but I have no sympathy at all for Arter that he chose not to, as I said, he was making light of actual serious incidents that have taken place as a means to time waste/gain an advantage.
 

Yorkeontop

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Mings has a decent shot at getting a lighter sentence.

edit: or maybe not...
In their statement, the FA said: "The FA has submitted a claim that the standard punishment that would otherwise apply for the misconduct committed by the Bournemouth defender is 'clearly insufficient'."

They seem to have made up their minds already.
 
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Ixion

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Ibra was knackered at the end of the Cup Final and it didn't look like we had any plans to rest him so that's a silver lining at least.
 

Snow

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I think Kevin Friend was shocking but it definitely maximised our chances of winning the game.

I don't recall a shoulder barge on Jones, was it shoulder to shoulder or in the back or what?

Obviously G Nev believed Zlat throwing Ming's was a red if the officials had seen it.

Surman prob shouldn't have seen any cards nevermind a red.

Ming's and Zlat should both have gone obviously, but I'm sure if Bournemouth had the choice they'd have preferred 10v10 to 11v10 for the rest of the match.

Thought the 2 penalty decisions were correct, ours just about but disagree with G Nev implying it was only given because of home crowd pressure on the ref.

Arter should have gone for a 2nd yellow for the careless slide on Pobga.

Friend has to stop the match for a head injury to Arter after he looked out cold after Pogba's shoulder smashed him accidentally, I mean just look at him. It's not up to the ref to wait for the ball to go out, in the case of a clear head injury he has to stop the match by the rules. Massive failure of his duty here. I don't know if he was worried about the crowd reaction or what but idiotic refereeing.


To add to the above Friend then constantly stopped the game allowing Bournemouth to waste time. He once stopped us taking a quick free kick on the edge of our box after a foul by Afobe who rolled around for a bit.

All round shot performance by Friend, but it should have allowed us to take the 3 points.
I think Friend judged Arter to be playing up his problem. On the one hand he was doing that but Friend couldn't definitely know that. It's a bit annoying situation though, Arter obviosly didn't get knocked out but there he is lying and pretending to be. The ref should stop the game, if Arter doesn't get subbed he should be carded for playacting.

As for the Jones foul, very early in the game he was pushed from behind, Bournemouth took the ball near or box crossed it and got a corner. Later in the game Rashford got a yellow for exactly the same foul.

Both of Surman's cards were justified. He slid in recklessly and that's a clear yellow. He ran up to Zlatan and pushed him, always a yellow card. How or if Zlatan goes down is irrelevant.

About Bournemouth prefereing to be 10vs10 rathar than 10vs11. How could they have been? Had Mings been sent off then Zlatan wouldn't have.
 

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Well at least it's a chance for Ibra to get a proper rest and for Jose to find out exactly what his team is all about.
 

Ixion

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If Mings accepted the decision he would be admitting to stamping on someone's head, he almost has to appeal it. He looked injured anyway so I'm sure he'd be missing these games anyway.
 

ManUchosenbosslvg

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I think Friend judged Arter to be playing up his problem. On the one hand he was doing that but Friend couldn't definitely know that. It's a bit annoying situation though, Arter obviosly didn't get knocked out but there he is lying and pretending to be. The ref should stop the game, if Arter doesn't get subbed he should be carded for playacting.

As for the Jones foul, very early in the game he was pushed from behind, Bournemouth took the ball near or box crossed it and got a corner. Later in the game Rashford got a yellow for exactly the same foul.

Both of Surman's cards were justified. He slid in recklessly and that's a clear yellow. He ran up to Zlatan and pushed him, always a yellow card. How or if Zlatan goes down is irrelevant.

About Bournemouth prefereing to be 10vs10 rathar than 10vs11. How could they have been? Had Mings been sent off then Zlatan wouldn't have.
The player shouldn't have to act up to get the ref to do his job. A head injury is a head injury, as soon as that clash happened and Arter fell to the ground, Friend should have followed the rules.

Disagree with both points here, thought Surman on Shaw was clean as a whistle, took the ball ahead of Shaw and from an angle that was never going to cause an impact other than Shaw going over him after he nicked the ball away. Many former players and referees have agreed on that point. The push on Ibra was extremely weak you see much worse go unpunished, felt like Friend knew he'd bottled it and had to do something so gave him a card not realising it was a 2nd yellow.

That logic doesn't really come into it for me, they can say Zlatan wouldn't have been on the pitch for Ming's to stamp if the ref got every decision correct immediately after his judo throw off the ball.
 

top1whoisman

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I'm guessing the disciplinary procedure doesn't follow the normal law stuff you see daily. Doesn't he like get a lawyer to argue on his behalf? There's enough doubt in his intent for most to work with I reckon.
Perhaps so, but I think in this case the FA stating the comment quoted gives you an idea, that if he gets banned, it’ll be longer than three matches.
 

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The player shouldn't have to act up to get the ref to do his job. A head injury is a head injury, as soon as that clash happened and Arter fell to the ground, Friend should have followed the rules.

Disagree with both points here, thought Surman on Shaw was clean as a whistle, took the ball ahead of Shaw and from an angle that was never going to cause an impact other than Shaw going over him after he nicked the ball away. Many former players and referees have agreed on that point. The push on Ibra was extremely weak you see much worse go unpunished, felt like Friend knew he'd bottled it and had to do something so gave him a card not realising it was a 2nd yellow.

That logic doesn't really come into it for me, they can say Zlatan wouldn't have been on the pitch for Ming's to stamp if the ref got every decision correct immediately after his judo throw off the ball.
Was he acting up to get the ref to do his job or was he simply acting up like Bournmeouth players did all game? I don't even think it was a head injury at all, just Arter trying to get the momentum stopped like he did several other times in the game.

Former players are really clueless when it comes to assessing fouls. Defenders will argue on behalf of the defender and attackers on behalf of the attacker. They have a big problem with trying to be objective and many of them can't come to terms with how the game has changed. Surman took out Shaw as well (went in with both feet and at much speed) which doesn't make it a clean tackle. Getting the ball doesn't mean that you didn't foul and it hasn't been so for a long time.

Surman pushed Zlatan when play wasn't on. You can't do that. It's very simple. He ran up to him and pushed him.

Zlatan throwing Mings to the ground isn't a red card offence so you're wrong there.
 

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Perhaps so, but I think in this case the FA stating the comment quoted gives you an idea, that if he gets banned, it’ll be longer than three matches.
It's three matches plus a subscription to BT Sport.
 

ManUchosenbosslvg

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Was he acting up to get the ref to do his job or was he simply acting up like Bournmeouth players did all game? I don't even think it was a head injury at all, just Arter trying to get the momentum stopped like he did several other times in the game.

Former players are really clueless when it comes to assessing fouls. Defenders will argue on behalf of the defender and attackers on behalf of the attacker. They have a big problem with trying to be objective and many of them can't come to terms with how the game has changed. Surman took out Shaw as well (went in with both feet and at much speed) which doesn't make it a clean tackle. Getting the ball doesn't mean that you didn't foul and it hasn't been so for a long time.

Surman pushed Zlatan when play wasn't on. You can't do that. It's very simple. He ran up to him and pushed him.

Zlatan throwing Mings to the ground isn't a red card offence so you're wrong there.
The Impact was clearly to Arter's head and he was caught full force by a large man in Pogba, I'd say that would put most people to the ground to be honest at which point the ref is supposed to stop the game.

I still think former players and referees are better qualified than you or me to decide on tackles like that, even former refs who are slow to criticise former colleagues said Friend got it wrong which is quite telling.

I'm not sure what else they could have given Zlatan, he can't say he was grapping for position for an incoming ball as it was in the other half, G Nev said straight red if they'd seen it and I have to agree. Even if it was somehow a yellow you can't really say that's equal to Surman putting a hand on Zlatans chest later. Even if he got a yellow and things continued as happened he couldn't keep his mouth shut over their penalty and got a yellow, he just had no discipline all game and I hope the rest does him well.
 

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If Mings accepted the decision he would be admitting to stamping on someone's head, he almost has to appeal it. He looked injured anyway so I'm sure he'd be missing these games anyway.
I thought it had to come from games he is fit to play in. Could be easy to report being fit for whatever the ban is.
 

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I think Kevin Friend was shocking but it definitely maximised our chances of winning the game.

I don't recall a shoulder barge on Jones, was it shoulder to shoulder or in the back or what?

Obviously G Nev believed Zlat throwing Ming's was a red if the officials had seen it.

Surman prob shouldn't have seen any cards nevermind a red.

Ming's and Zlat should both have gone obviously, but I'm sure if Bournemouth had the choice they'd have preferred 10v10 to 11v10 for the rest of the match.

Thought the 2 penalty decisions were correct, ours just about but disagree with G Nev implying it was only given because of home crowd pressure on the ref.

Arter should have gone for a 2nd yellow for the careless slide on Pobga.

Friend has to stop the match for a head injury to Arter after he looked out cold after Pogba's shoulder smashed him accidentally, I mean just look at him. It's not up to the ref to wait for the ball to go out, in the case of a clear head injury he has to stop the match by the rules. Massive failure of his duty here. I don't know if he was worried about the crowd reaction or what but idiotic refereeing.


To add to the above Friend then constantly stopped the game allowing Bournemouth to waste time. He once stopped us taking a quick free kick on the edge of our box after a foul by Afobe who rolled around for a bit.

All round shot performance by Friend, but it should have allowed us to take the 3 points.
I agree with most of your points - but the Jones shoulder barge is absolutely the key moment in the game. It happens very early on - and gives licence to Bournemouth players to adopt bordeline thuggish tactics for the rest of the game. Friend lost control very early on - the other incidents trigger from that moment on.