UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[SteveJ]

On Irving -

Houghton said: “A charleton [sic] seems a bit heavy, even his opponent’s recongnised [sic] his skill as a historian.”

He added: “His arguments - in terms of the Holocaust- have been that Hitler was not in the know about Aushwitz, rather as he challenged Deborah Lippstrad to do, show a genuine document linking Adolf Hitler to Auschwitz-Birkenau... No one has yet taken his challenge. (From what I know, im more than willing to be corrected here) “His other main focus was that the gas chamber which you go into as a tourist - if that word can be used in this context- was constructed after WW2.”

He adds that he is “not defending David’s Irving’s views” and that he does not agree with “some of the stuff he says”.

He later clarified that he had “no problem with anyone’s lifestyle choices” but was just trying “to think of an example when it could be considered bad for the human race.”

I have to ask though, why would anyone give Irving the benefit of the doubt considering he's notoriously agenda-driven?

 

[Ubik]

Look at the stuff Houghton is reported as saying, is it really anti-Semitic? Is it really homophobic? Especially given that he was 20 at the time, I think it is ok for people to be thinking about this kind of stuff, and to be shown proper sources and set straight. There is a danger to too much censorship.

On Irving -

Houghton said: “A charleton [sic] seems a bit heavy, even his opponent’s recongnised [sic] his skill as a historian.”

He added: “His arguments - in terms of the Holocaust- have been that Hitler was not in the know about Aushwitz, rather as he challenged Deborah Lippstrad to do, show a genuine document linking Adolf Hitler to Auschwitz-Birkenau... No one has yet taken his challenge. (From what I know, im more than willing to be corrected here) “His other main focus was that the gas chamber which you go into as a tourist - if that word can be used in this context- was constructed after WW2.”

He adds that he is “not defending David’s Irving’s views” and that he does not agree with “some of the stuff he says”.

On homosexuality -
“I know im kind of going to the extreme here but I don’t see how homosexuality is ‘good’ for the human race?”

He later clarified that he had “no problem with anyone’s lifestyle choices” but was just trying “to think of an example when it could be considered bad for the human race.”

I think at 20 you're old enough not to be dabbling with holocaust denial.

 

[fergieisold]

I mean Jesus Christ

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

I don't get it. Isn't he talking about your typical down an outs who are making life hell for normal working people on the estate? Not a bad idea!

 

[Fiskey]

I have to ask though, why would anyone give Irving the benefit of the doubt considering he's notoriously agenda-driven?

Who knows, I've only got a vague recollection of the name from years ago. These quotes in themselves just don't seem particularly bad.

 

[Fiskey]

I think at 20 you're old enough not to be dabbling with holocaust denial.

I think if someone wants to go and research the holocaust to make sure for themselves that it happened that's fine. If they come up with any conclusion other than that it did, they are either stupid or have an agenda.

 

[Cheesy]

Who knows, I've only got a vague recollection of the name from years ago. These quotes in themselves just don't seem particularly bad.

Irving's well-liked in Holocaust denial circles since he's seen as legitimising their views.

 

[esmufc07]

I don't get it. Isn't he talking about your typical down an outs who are making life hell for normal working people on the estate? Not a bad idea!

Yes, forced labour is a great idea.

 

[Cheesy]

I don't get it. Isn't he talking about your typical down an outs who are making life hell for normal working people on the estate? Not a bad idea!

You think forced labour camps are a...good idea?

 

[OohAahMartial]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

All the juicy Raab ones were fake, the Northern Monkey one and the Tory-Brexit Party pact ones, and obvious ones at that for anyone with a computer background. I got Jolyon Maugham to delete his tweets based on them, shocking lack of due diligence on his part. The £1000 tea was confirmed as a real DM, but was a charitable donation. There's one account that does appear to publishing real ones, but nothing very interesting amongst them so far.

 

[fergieisold]

Yes, forced labour is a great idea.

You think forced labour camps are a...good idea?

I think he's joking. In an ideal world nuisance neighbours would end up in forced labour

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Look at the stuff Houghton is reported as saying, is it really anti-Semitic? Is it really homophobic? Especially given that he was 20 at the time, I think it is ok for people to be thinking about this kind of stuff, and to be shown proper sources and set straight. There is a danger to too much censorship.

On Irving -

Houghton said: “A charleton [sic] seems a bit heavy, even his opponent’s recongnised [sic] his skill as a historian.”

He added: “His arguments - in terms of the Holocaust- have been that Hitler was not in the know about Aushwitz, rather as he challenged Deborah Lippstrad to do, show a genuine document linking Adolf Hitler to Auschwitz-Birkenau... No one has yet taken his challenge. (From what I know, im more than willing to be corrected here) “His other main focus was that the gas chamber which you go into as a tourist - if that word can be used in this context- was constructed after WW2.”

He adds that he is “not defending David’s Irving’s views” and that he does not agree with “some of the stuff he says”.

On homosexuality -
“I know im kind of going to the extreme here but I don’t see how homosexuality is ‘good’ for the human race?”

He later clarified that he had “no problem with anyone’s lifestyle choices” but was just trying “to think of an example when it could be considered bad for the human race.”

I'm making the comparison of levels of media coverage for this Tory candidate compared with if it was a Labour candidate.

 

[Fiskey]

Irving's well-liked in Holocaust denial circles since he's seen as legitimising their views.

I'm sure he's a horrible bloke, and it seems like he's rightly spent time in prison in Austria. I believe it is possible that a horrible bloke with completely misguided views can however have made some findings that are relevant, I don't know because I've not read him. However that seems to be 20 year old Houghton's point. (I emphasise the age as who knows whether Houghton still holds the same views now.)

 

[Cheesy]

I think he's joking. In an ideal world nuisance neighbours would end up in forced labour

What evidence is there to say he's joking?

 

[Fiskey]

I'm making the comparison of levels of media coverage for this Tory candidate compared with if it was a Labour candidate.

Its front page on a Scottish newspaper (that seems to be very pro SNP). I imagine other papers haven't picked it up because they, like me, don't judge this to be a story.

 

[fergieisold]

What evidence is there to say he's joking?

Just a typical tongue in cheek aggressive stance when it comes to knob heads. Would it be such a bad idea to put them in tents? If they can't live within a normal society why should I care about them?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Its front page on a Scottish newspaper (that seems to be very pro SNP). I imagine other papers haven't picked it up because they, like me, don't judge this to be a story.

Those other papers most definitely would judge it to be a story if it was a Labour candidate under Corbyn.

 

[SteveJ]

 

[nimic]

On Irving -

Houghton said: “A charleton [sic] seems a bit heavy, even his opponent’s recongnised [sic] his skill as a historian.”

He added: “His arguments - in terms of the Holocaust- have been that Hitler was not in the know about Aushwitz, rather as he challenged Deborah Lippstrad to do, show a genuine document linking Adolf Hitler to Auschwitz-Birkenau... No one has yet taken his challenge. (From what I know, im more than willing to be corrected here) “His other main focus was that the gas chamber which you go into as a tourist - if that word can be used in this context- was constructed after WW2.”

He adds that he is “not defending David’s Irving’s views” and that he does not agree with “some of the stuff he says”.

Yes, that betrays some amount of anti-semitism. Just saying "I'm not defending David Irving's views" doesn't mean anything when he's clearly defending David Irving's views. And those views are indefensible. Everyone should be able to recognize that at the age of 20. And while the comments themselves might not be anti-semitic, using that kind of language when talking about David Irving is revealing.

 

[SteveJ]

Conspiracy! This post got RAWK's election thread locked:

Its my view on it and frankly, I don't give a rats arse what the usual suspects think as they circle like vultures round my carcass. But I am not dead, you nincompoops. These political threads have become infiltrated by agent provocateurs working for the Tory party. Their character assassination of Corbyn. Their rhetoric of espousing the virtues of Lib Dems is particularly revealing as these agents know if punters are enticed to take a sip of this wine first, then while 'holding their nose', they'll take a drop of the hard stuff next. Drip, drip, drip...

 

[Cheesy]

Just a typical tongue in cheek aggressive stance when it comes to knob heads. Would it be such a bad idea to put them in tents? If they can't live within a normal society why should I care about them?

Do you not feel that such people may act like that people they've grown up disadvantaged and don't have anything better to do with their lives? Where there's social deprivation should we not aim to help those people instead of, err, confining them to slavery?

 

[Cheesy]

Its front page on a Scottish newspaper (that seems to be very pro SNP). I imagine other papers haven't picked it up because they, like me, don't judge this to be a story.

You don't think it's a story that a candidate is flirting, at the very least, with actual Holocaust denial?

 

[sun_tzu]

You don't think it's a story that a candidate is flirting, at the very least, with actual Holocaust denial?

It should be a bigger story I think - that said the reality is that with the leaders debate, the banks twitter stuff (and the fake banks twitter stuff) it probably wont get the media traction it should

 

[sun_tzu]

im not entirely sure about kantar as a pollster - but this was done in the last few days and if this not a massive outlier then labour are in trouble as it looks like the brexit vote has mostly gone back to the conservatives

 

[Sassy Colin]

Conspiracy! This post got RAWK's election thread locked:

In before the lock!

 

[Sweet Square]

im not entirely sure about kantar as a pollster - but this was done in the last few days and if this not a massive outlier then labour are in trouble as it looks like the brexit vote has mostly gone back to the conservatives

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Abizzz]

im not entirely sure about kantar as a pollster - but this was done in the last few days and if this not a massive outlier then labour are in trouble as it looks like the brexit vote has mostly gone back to the conservatives

Me neither but that background is more than a bit of a clue

 

[Fiskey]

You don't think it's a story that a candidate is flirting, at the very least, with actual Holocaust denial?

But he's not. He's saying that a holocaust denier did some good history work. This may be code for Houghton himself being an actual holocaust denier, but its not what he's saying in this instance.

 

[Rooney1987]

im not entirely sure about kantar as a pollster - but this was done in the last few days and if this not a massive outlier then labour are in trouble as it looks like the brexit vote has mostly gone back to the conservatives

The equivalent Kantar poll in 2017 at this stage was:-

Tory 47, Lab 29, Lib Dem 8.

The interesting poll for me is Survation who got it pretty close in 2017

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

However this was from 2 weeks ago this is a big from from 6 point lead to 14.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[EwanI Ted]

Well disprove these examples then.

The burden of proof should clearly sit with the published author.

 

[Sweet Square]

The burden of proof should clearly sit with the published author.

cheers for the wasted time.

 

[EwanI Ted]

cheers for the wasted time.

Ask a silly question...

 

[Ibi Dreams]

I don't think we can glean much from the polls, they were all very wrong last time except for the Survation one as mentioned. I believe that one did use a different methodology, but who's to say whether the methodology worked correctly or if it was just the most accurate of many by sheer luck.

I also question whether the polls are intended to reflect voter opinion or influence voters. That Kantar one looks incredibly dodgy when looking at the percentage of votes by age they expect compared to last election

 

[sun_tzu]

The equivalent Kantar poll in 2017 at this stage was:-

Tory 47, Lab 29, Lib Dem 8.

The interesting poll for me is Survation who got it pretty close in 2017

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

However this was from 2 weeks ago this is a big from from 6 point lead to 14.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Might be a blip... But if a few polls start to show the same (basically the brexit vote migrating straight to the conservatives) then that's not good for labour

Though I would also guess that brexit not standing in conservative areas may imply some of that national share will more likley translate to bigger majorities then necessarily winning seats they don't currently hold

 

[Sweet Square]

Ask a silly question...

I doubt she going to get on the cafe to debate you. How about you just point out why her argument is wrong. All you done at the moment is called the argument a straw man and refused to engaged in anything else.


If this is the level you going to put in, then just don't reply to my post in the first place. Just think of all the time we both could have saved.

 

[Sweet Square]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

The ''gammons'' are back.

 

[Cheesy]

I don't think we can glean much from the polls, they were all very wrong last time except for the Survation one as mentioned. I believe that one did use a different methodology, but who's to say whether the methodology worked correctly or if it was just the most accurate of many by sheer luck.

I also question whether the polls are intended to reflect voter opinion or influence voters. That Kantar one looks incredibly dodgy when looking at the percentage of votes by age they expect compared to last election

They weren't necessarily wrong though, they overestimated the Tory lead but Labour were clearly far behind at the start of the election and made up a lot of ground. And anyway, even though the Survation one was correct Labour still ultimately lost the election. Only their surprise improvement and the curbing of a Tory majority stopped it from being a poor result.

 

[EwanI Ted]

I doubt she going to get on the cafe to debate you. How about you just point out why her argument is wrong. All you done at the moment is called the argument a straw man and refused to engaged in anything else.


If this is the level you going to put in, then just don't reply to my post in the first place. Just think of all the time we both could save.

Spare me the affront. Disproving three statements of those types was obviously not happening on a football site’s sub-forum where the typical post is 5 sentences long. It’s hardly the place to post a 5000 word essay in response, which you know full well and was the reason you replied as you did. After all you could also have engaged with the statement yourself, but chose not to and went with the tiresome act of shifting the burden of proof. I just bounced it straight back at you.

 

[Sweet Square]

Spare me the affront. Disproving three statements of those types was obviously not happening on a football site’s sub-forum where the typical post is 5 sentences long. It’s hardly the place to post a 5000 word essay in response, which you know full well and was the reason you replied as you did. After all you could also have engaged with the statement yourself, but chose not to and went with the tiresome act of shifting the burden of proof. I just bounced it straight back at you.

So your not going to engage with the argument in the article because it would take you too long ? Well I guess you've shown her.


But seriously for both our sakes, please don't ever reply back to my posts again.

 

[sun_tzu]

The equivalent Kantar poll in 2017 at this stage was:-

Tory 47, Lab 29, Lib Dem 8.

The interesting poll for me is Survation who got it pretty close in 2017

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

However this was from 2 weeks ago this is a big from from 6 point lead to 14.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Just taken a look at the most recent 10 polls on Britain elects
Kantar is the outlier but not by much and certainly in the margin of error

Last ten polls all give conservative a lead

Yougov +17
Kantar +18
ICM +10
Survation +14
Deltapoll +15
BMG +8
Opinium+16
Yougov +17
Comres +8
Panel base +13

Average +13.6 so probably with margin for error something around +11 to +16

Certainly not seeing the collapse yet

The next few weeks should tell how much of the last swing was down to Corbyn the campaigner and the policies and how much down to a malfunctioning maybot (though Boris could go off script tonight and stuff up his chances every time he opens his mouth)

 

[711]

So your not going to engage with the argument in the article because it would take you too long ? Well I guess you've shown her.


But seriously for both our sakes, please don't ever reply back to my posts again.

I'm not taking sides but that is the point of the ignore button.