UK Rail Strikes

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,635
Location
The Zone


Sweet Square said:
The property owning retiree form an enormous mass whose members live in similar conditions but without entering into manifold relations with each other. Their mode of living isolates them from one another instead of bringing them into mutual intercourse. The isolation is furthered by England poor means of communication/transport and the poverty of the retirees. Their field of living, semi-detached home permits no application of science, and therefore no multifariousness of development, no diversity of talent, no wealth of social relationships. Each individual retiree is almost self-sufficient, directly paying most of its consumer needs, and thus acquires its means of life more through an exchange with online tesco than in intercourse with society. A semi-detached, the retiree and his/her property; beside it another semi-detached, another retiree and another semi detached. A few score of these constitute a village, and a few score villages constitute Sunderland.

Insofar as millions of retirees live under conditions of existence that separate their mode of life, their interests, and their culture from those of the other classes, and put them in hostile opposition to the latter, they form a class. Insofar as there is merely a local interconnection among these property owning retirees, and the identity of their interests forms no community, no national bond, and no political organization among them, they do not constitute a class. They are therefore incapable of asserting their class interest in their own name, whether through a parliament or a convention. They cannot represent themselves, they must be represented. Their representative must at the same time appear as their master, as an authority over them, an unlimited governmental power which protects them from the other classes and sends them rain and sunshine from above. The political influence of the property owing retiree, therefore, finds its final expression in the executive power which subordinates society to itself.
Click to expand...
 

Fingeredmouse

Full Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Messages
5,641
Location
Glasgow
CallyRed said:
One of the worst comparisons I've ever heard.
Click to expand...
Not least because dinosaurs were highly adaptive and staggeringly successful thereby making the opposite point from that which this muppet was inarticulately attempting to vomit out of her face hole.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
8,164
Location
Manchester
Forevergiggs1 said:
Mike Lynch could run the train service into the ground but as long as he's, "giving it to the tories" that's enough to have 90% of the caf cream themselves. Job done.
Click to expand...
The train service took out hundreds of millions in shareholder payments due to having some of the most expensive train travel in Europe, all while asking workers to take a real terms pay cut.

If you think it's only about "giving it to the Tories" then you don't understand the issue.
 

Forevergiggs1

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
3,451
Location
Barcelona
Supports
United
neverdie said:
yeah it's about giving it to the tories and not about articulating the crippling effect the cost of living and inflation crisis is having on the entire country coupled with years and years of austerity. half the public sector is considering industrial action. it's not just mick lynch. he's a symptom of a crisis that has been brewing for nearly fifteen years.

whenever someone does something objectively useful and worthwhile there's always a bunch of people ready to move against the grain. used to be called hipsters. a better description is contrarian proxy tory at this point. people need to get over themselves and consider what actually matters. if you don't think working conditions matter that's fine but don't try and frame this as people jumping on some celebrity bandwagon when it's the exact opposite of that.
Click to expand...
Of course working conditions matter but personally I think the RMT are taking the piss. If their main gripe was about safety issues or fighting against redundancies then I'd be all for it but it's not. It's about giving pay rises to people who in most cases earn way above their station.

Below is an average of what some of them earn. For me the only people who more or less earn their wage is the maintenance workers. £33k for tickets please you think is under paid? I know the drivers aren't going on strike (where's the solidarity?) but they earn more than my wife and she's a specialised doctor. A little bit of reality check is needed here.

Rail travel assistants including ticket collectors, and guards – £33,310
  • Rail construction and maintenance workers – £34,998
  • Rail transport workers including signallers and drivers’ assistants – £48,750
  • Train and tram drivers – £59,189
  • Rail and rolling stock builders and repairers – £46,753
On the other hand, when BA go on strike I'll be 100% behind them as I think their wages are well behind considering the work they do. As for front line workers who risk their lives every day or save lives everyday I'd give each one a medal and a start off wage of £40k which is still well behind what a drivers feckin mate earns. Nope don't have a lot of sympathy for the railworkers I'm afraid.
 

RedSky

Shepherd’s Delight
Scout
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
74,251
Location
Hereford FC (Soccermanager)
Forevergiggs1 said:
Of course working conditions matter but personally I think the RMT are taking the piss. If their main gripe was about safety issues or fighting against redundancies then I'd be all for it but it's not. It's about giving pay rises to people who in most cases earn way above their station.

Below is an average of what some of them earn. For me the only people who more or less earn their wage is the maintenance workers. £33k for tickets please you think is under paid? I know the drivers aren't going on strike (where's the solidarity?) but they earn more than my wife and she's a specialised doctor. A little bit of reality check is needed here.

Rail travel assistants including ticket collectors, and guards – £33,310
  • Rail construction and maintenance workers – £34,998
  • Rail transport workers including signallers and drivers’ assistants – £48,750
  • Train and tram drivers – £59,189
  • Rail and rolling stock builders and repairers – £46,753
On the other hand, when BA go on strike I'll be 100% behind them as I think their wages are well behind considering the work they do. As for front line workers who risk their lives every day or save lives everyday I'd give each one a medal and a start off wage of £40k which is still well behind what a drivers feckin mate earns. Nope don't have a lot of sympathy for the railworkers I'm afraid.
Click to expand...
If you read the article you took those wages from you'd know why the Train Drivers aren't striking.

Personally, if I was in an industry where they were threatening to rip up the terms and conditions of mine and my colleagues contracts and threatening thousands of redundancies i'd be deeply concerned and very angry. But to do all of that while the cost of living has risen significantly in recent years is damning. Fact is that we need more industries to strike against this Government as they don't give a flying feck about the average joe and are actively seeking in reducing our working rights across the board.
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,635
Location
The Zone
Forevergiggs1 said:
Of course working conditions matter but personally I think the RMT are taking the piss. If their main gripe was about safety issues or fighting against redundancies then I'd be all for it but it's not. It's about giving pay rises to people who in most cases earn way above their station.

Below is an average of what some of them earn. For me the only people who more or less earn their wage is the maintenance workers. £33k for tickets please you think is under paid? I know the drivers aren't going on strike (where's the solidarity?) but they earn more than my wife and she's a specialised doctor. A little bit of reality check is needed here.

Rail travel assistants including ticket collectors, and guards – £33,310
  • Rail construction and maintenance workers – £34,998
  • Rail transport workers including signallers and drivers’ assistants – £48,750
  • Train and tram drivers – £59,189
  • Rail and rolling stock builders and repairers – £46,753
On the other hand, when BA go on strike I'll be 100% behind them as I think their wages are well behind considering the work they do. As for front line workers who risk their lives every day or save lives everyday I'd give each one a medal and a start off wage of £40k which is still well behind what a drivers feckin mate earns. Nope don't have a lot of sympathy for the railworkers I'm afraid.
Click to expand...
 

neverdie

Full Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
2,388
Forevergiggs1 said:
Of course working conditions matter but personally I think the RMT are taking the piss. If their main gripe was about safety issues or fighting against redundancies then I'd be all for it but it's not. It's about giving pay rises to people who in most cases earn way above their station.
Click to expand...
you think forty thousand people who earn away above their station would strike on a whim? the average wage of that union's membership is about £30k. some earn £18k-£24k depending on their role. as was pointed out by the one other useful guest tonight, inflation, in real terms, has risen by about 25% over the past 12 years and pay has risen by about 5%. that's across the entire public sector iirc. this is a massive problem and picking and choosing which union you want to support is not the way to solve it. the literal principle of a union is solidarity or "unity" with all workers. i'll support whatever union tries to strike to gain a pay increase under these circumstances. i can't understand the mindset of anyone who doesn't unless they're rich or aspire to be rich.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
8,164
Location
Manchester
neverdie said:
you think forty thousand people who earn away above their station would strike on a whim? the average wage of that union's membership is about £30k. some earn £18k-£24k depending on their role. as was pointed out by the one other useful guest tonight, inflation, in real terms, has risen by about 25% over the past 12 years and pay has risen by about 5%. that's across the entire public sector iirc. this is a massive problem and picking and choosing which union you want to support is not the way to solve it. the literal principle of a union is solidarity or "unity" with all workers. i'll support whatever union tries to strike to gain a pay increase under these circumstances. i can't understand the mindset of anyone who doesn't unless they're rich or aspire to be rich.
Click to expand...
Yep. Unfortunately divide and rule is such an effective strategy because people fall for blaming the wrong people and infighting.
 

Summit

"do the dead, spread your seed and get out"
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Messages
51,054
Forevergiggs1 said:
Of course working conditions matter but personally I think the RMT are taking the piss. If their main gripe was about safety issues or fighting against redundancies then I'd be all for it but it's not. It's about giving pay rises to people who in most cases earn way above their station.

Below is an average of what some of them earn. For me the only people who more or less earn their wage is the maintenance workers. £33k for tickets please you think is under paid? I know the drivers aren't going on strike (where's the solidarity?) but they earn more than my wife and she's a specialised doctor. A little bit of reality check is needed here.

Rail travel assistants including ticket collectors, and guards – £33,310
  • Rail construction and maintenance workers – £34,998
  • Rail transport workers including signallers and drivers’ assistants – £48,750
  • Train and tram drivers – £59,189
  • Rail and rolling stock builders and repairers – £46,753
On the other hand, when BA go on strike I'll be 100% behind them as I think their wages are well behind considering the work they do. As for front line workers who risk their lives every day or save lives everyday I'd give each one a medal and a start off wage of £40k which is still well behind what a drivers feckin mate earns. Nope don't have a lot of sympathy for the railworkers I'm afraid.
Click to expand...
That figure for signallers wage is massively wrong. Can only assume that if the the signaller wage in your post is pump through the roof...then the other figures are too.
 

Badunk

Shares his caf joinday with Dante
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
12,950
Location
Occupied Merseyside
Forevergiggs1 said:
Of course working conditions matter but personally I think the RMT are taking the piss. If their main gripe was about safety issues or fighting against redundancies then I'd be all for it but it's not. It's about giving pay rises to people who in most cases earn way above their station.

Below is an average of what some of them earn. For me the only people who more or less earn their wage is the maintenance workers. £33k for tickets please you think is under paid? I know the drivers aren't going on strike (where's the solidarity?) but they earn more than my wife and she's a specialised doctor. A little bit of reality check is needed here.

Rail travel assistants including ticket collectors, and guards – £33,310
  • Rail construction and maintenance workers – £34,998
  • Rail transport workers including signallers and drivers’ assistants – £48,750
  • Train and tram drivers – £59,189
  • Rail and rolling stock builders and repairers – £46,753
On the other hand, when BA go on strike I'll be 100% behind them as I think their wages are well behind considering the work they do. As for front line workers who risk their lives every day or save lives everyday I'd give each one a medal and a start off wage of £40k which is still well behind what a drivers feckin mate earns. Nope don't have a lot of sympathy for the railworkers I'm afraid.
Click to expand...
See, you seem to think that ticket collectors and guards only collect tickets and blow whistles. If pharmacists went on strike you'd probably think all they do are put little labels on little bottles.

Some jobs involve the health and safety of other people. The wages reflect this. What your missus earns compared to train drivers is you looking down. What about the people at the heads of the train companies who earn many multiples of your wife's wages? Are you not more pissed off at them?
 

11101

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
21,311
Summit said:
That figure for signallers wage is massively wrong. Can only assume that if the the signaller wage in your post is pump through the roof...then the other figures are too.
Click to expand...
That figure comes directly from the ONS. It's correct, and it's easy to look up.

Breaking it down to signallers only, the figure is 44k.


edit: actually, he did get it wrong. £48,750 is the median. The average is higher, £50,675.
 

Summit

"do the dead, spread your seed and get out"
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Messages
51,054
11101 said:
That figure comes directly from the ONS. It's correct, and it's easy to look up.

Breaking it down to signallers only, the figure is 44k.


edit: actually, he did get it wrong. £48,750 is the median. The average is higher, £50,675.
Click to expand...
I don't care where is come from because I know exactly how much signallers earn from grade 1 to grade 8.

Yes there are grades...some boxes are busier than others so are paid differently. Don't come at me that the 50k is the average when the 50k is higher than a grade 8 signaller :lol:
 

11101

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
21,311
Summit said:
I don't care where is come from because I know exactly how much signallers earn from grade 1 to grade 8.

Yes there are grades...some boxes are busier than others so are paid differently. Don't come at me that the 50k is the average when the 50k is higher than a grade 8 signaller :lol:
Click to expand...
No, the average for a signaller is 44k, as i said above. The average for the category they fall into is 50k, which includes a few other jobs.

I think Network Rail know what they pay their employees, don't you?
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,635
Location
The Zone
Summit said:
That figure for signallers wage is massively wrong. Can only assume that if the the signaller wage in your post is pump through the roof...then the other figures are too.
Click to expand...
Summit said:
I don't care where is come from because I know exactly how much signallers earn from grade 1 to grade 8.

Yes there are grades...some boxes are busier than others so are paid differently. Don't come at me that the 50k is the average when the 50k is higher than a grade 8 signaller :lol:
Click to expand...
They are just repeating tory talking points

Transport secretary Grant Shapps has claimed that the average rail worker earns £44,000 per year, compared to the average nurse’s salary of £31,000. His comments were made during discussions about a strike currently underwayby railway workers represented by the RMT union over pay, working conditions and job cuts.

The £44,000 figure has also been repeated by Conservative MPs Nick Fletcher, Jonathan Gullis and Chris Philp when talking about the strikes.

This figure is broadly correct as the median rail sector salary as defined in official figures. However, it is not representative of the average salary of the workers who are striking in this particular action.

Government figure covers rail sector employees
During an appearance on Newsnight on 20 June, government minister Chris Philp said: “The median salary of all railway workers is £44,000.”

The Department for Transport told the BBC this figure came from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) which calculated that the median rail sector salary was £43,747 in 2021.

The ONS defines rail sector workers as those employed in one of five roles:

  • Rail and rolling stock builders and repairers
  • Rail travel assistants
  • Rail construction and maintenance operatives
  • Train and tram drivers
  • Rail transport operatives
It’s worth noting that this figure is a median average—the middle salary in the sector—rather than a mean average.

£44,000 figure is not representative of striking workers
While the salary referred to by Mr Shapps and others includes workers defined as working in the rail sector, it doesn’t represent those who are participating in this week’s national rail strike.

The strike mainly involves members of the RMT union who work on railways. The RMT’s railway strike does not include train drivers, who are included in the government’s figure, around 96% of whom belong to a different union called ASLEF and as such are not involved in this strike action.

A separate strike on Tuesday 21 June was held by RMT and Unite workers on the London Underground. Some ASLEF train drivers working on the Greater Anglia service have voted to hold their own strike on Thursday, 23 June, with Hull Trains and south London tram drivers also set to strike later this month.

The ONS has calculated that the median salary for rail sector workers excluding train and tram drivers in 2021 was £36,800. This includes full-time and part-time employees.

The RMT union also includes some members who work on the railways but are not defined as being employed in the rail sector, such as cleaners.

These workers, many of whom are not directly employed by rail companies, but instead by external agencies, are typically on lower incomes.

According to the RMT, the median salary of its rail members is £31,000. This is similar to the median salary of a nurse, which according to ONS data was £31,093 in 2021. This includes all nurses, full-time and part-time. The median salary of a full-time nurse was £35,971.

The RMT has previously told the BBC that by removing train drivers and including cleaners in the government’s £44,000 figure, you get a median salary of £33,000 which it said better reflects the pay of people going on strike. We’ve contacted the RMT to ask about the difference between its £33,000 and £31,000 figures.

Both of these figures include both full-time and part-time workers. The BBC has calculated that the median pay of full-time workers involved in the RMT national rail strike is £38,000.

However, either way, it would appear that the median salary of those participating in the current RMT national rail strike action is significantly below the median rail worker salary of £44,000 being referenced by the government, though these figures solely refer to RMT members participating in the national rail strike, and do not include workers involved in Tuesday’s tube strike or the upcoming driver’s strikes.

https://fullfact.org/economy/RMT-strike-salary/
Click to expand...
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,635
Location
The Zone
Badunk said:
See, you seem to think that ticket collectors and guards only collect tickets and blow whistles. If pharmacists went on strike you'd probably think all they do are put little labels on little bottles.

Some jobs involve the health and safety of other people. The wages reflect this. What your missus earns compared to train drivers is you looking down. What about the people at the heads of the train companies who earn many multiples of your wife's wages? Are you not more pissed off at them?
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.