United's Greatest Captain?

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

One day someone will start a thread saying "is it possible to start a thread without Caf opinions quickly becoming completely polarised?"... and the thread would get quickly polarised.

No obvious drop off with Nicky Butt or Phil Neville?. That is frankly outrageous

I think that's got lost a bit in semantics and what a word means to people tbf. He said no OBVIOUS drop off and I think meant the team could still compete given the all-round quality in it. Nicky Butt must be one of the best players we've had who wasn't a regular starter? Maybe "massive drop off" is more accurate?

In contrast, when Robson was out, you were looking at the likes of Colin Gibson or maybe playing Whiteside out of position (he'd do a job but I'd have Butt any day as a CM)

It's not total bollocks at all, some of our better performances in Keane's time at the club were when he was actually missing, not many but some, but you could count on the finger of one finger the times you could say the same when Robson was missing.

Yip. Keane clearly missed by any team, as a player and captain but I can't remember a great result without Robson whereas there are some without Keane. The Bayern game is the obvious one, plus when he got sent off v Arsenal. The team/squad strength meant we could still give ourselves a chance without him... and we had a lot of mentally tough players and other people who acted like captains. Schmeicel, Stam, Rio, etc didn't collapse if Keane wasn't about.

There is not much between Robbo and Keane but to say Robson by quite some distance is just ludicrous.

Keane for me due to Robson's unprofessionalism, he was basically an alcoholic for most of his time at united and had he stayed off the booze he probably would have avoided some of those injuries. Keane on the other hand was a great professional and therefore shades it for me.

I guess to be fair to Robson he played in a less professional era but still....

He wasn't pissed in games Not ideal but he still played well over 300 games and had a 1 in 5 goal ratio (Keane 1 in 10, different positions I know)... he wasn't out for seasons due to drink, more his 100% committment to tackles and a little bit of bad luck too.

He was truly fantastic and one of the greatest ever. There is a reason everyone who played against him and played with him swears by him.

The difference is Robson had the talent to take over a game going forward in a way Keane just didn't have the ability to. Mind you he faced those circumstances regularly. Never complained, just handled his business.

This is what makes it a tougher question. The teams Robson played with meant he had more opportunities to drag teams to ridiculous results... it's not Keanes fault he played in amazing teams who shared the workload.

That's all very well and good but the debate is who is the better captain, not player so the giggs/best comparison is neither here nor there.

In my view the ongoing boozing had a significant impact on his injury record which in turn impacted on uniteds trophy haul in the 80s. Keane gave up the boozing around age 25 and became a better more mature player and captain as a result. Robson for whatever reason couldnt do that.

Anyway I think its perfectly acceptable for one to argue that Robbo was the better captain but to say he was by quite some distance is nonsense. Keane led us to trophy after trophy, Robbo and his drinking buddies led us nowhere in the end unfortunately.

Robson was a better player post 25 than before. Again, drink not ideal but I don't think it had a huge impact on playing side.

Digressing to playing ability again but bold is a bit harsh, especially given comparative quality of squads they played in. Robson/pre Keane sides still won a couple of cups, a European trophy (Robson brilliant) and could have won another if Robson hadn't have missed the Juve semi.

He also missed out on years when English teams were banned in Europe (not saying they'd have won mind)

I've heard it all now, Bryan Robson being a piss-can is the main reason apart from the occasional Cup win we won feck all ....

@admin, it's my Birthday today, can I have special dispensation to post LOL?

Happy Birthday

 

[Foxbatt]

I have seen both at their peak. Live at OT. Robson led by example. I am not saying Keane is a bad captain and he is very close to Robson but telling Rio for a forward pass or shouting at Neville is not the yardstick I look at a great Captain. Carrying the team and giving that extra inspiration and actually delivering on the pitch day in and day out. How many times has Robson done it for us? Plenty and that's why he was called Captain Marvel. Different era and different cultures.

 

[Class of 63]

One day someone will start a thread saying "is it possible to start a thread without Caf opinions quickly becoming completely polarised?"... and the thread would get quickly polarised.


I think that's got lost a bit in semantics and what a word means to people tbf. He said no OBVIOUS drop off and I think meant the team could still compete given the all-round quality in it. Nicky Butt must be one of the best players we've had who wasn't a regular starter? Maybe "massive drop off" is more accurate?

In contrast, when Robson was out, you were looking at the likes of Colin Gibson or maybe playing Whiteside out of position (he'd do a job but I'd have Butt any day as a CM)


Yip. Keane clearly missed by any team, as a player and captain but I can't remember a great result without Robson whereas there are some without Keane. The Bayern game is the obvious one, plus when he got sent off v Arsenal. The team/squad strength meant we could still give ourselves a chance without him... and we had a lot of mentally tough players and other people who acted like captains. Schmeicel, Stam, Rio, etc didn't collapse if Keane wasn't about.

He wasn't pissed in games Not ideal but he still played well over 300 games and had a 1 in 5 goal ratio (Keane 1 in 10, different positions I know)... he wasn't out for seasons due to drink, more his 100% committment to tackles and a little bit of bad luck too.

This is what makes it a tougher question. The teams Robson played with meant he had more opportunities to drag teams to ridiculous results... it's not Keanes fault he played in amazing teams who shared the workload.

Robson was a better player post 25 than before. Again, drink not ideal but I don't think it had a huge impact on playing side.

Digressing to playing ability again but bold is a bit harsh, especially given comparative quality of squads they played in. Robson/pre Keane sides still won a couple of cups, a European trophy (Robson brilliant) and could have won another if Robson hadn't have missed the Juve semi.

He also missed out on years when English teams were banned in Europe (not saying they'd have won mind)

Happy Birthday

Thanks for that @BeforeKeanetherewasRobson, and for briefly getting on to my wavelength and explaining better than I ever could the point(s) I was failing to get across properly.

 

[RedTiger]

1.Robbo
2.Keane
3.Cantona

I will never look above Robson, not only was he a captain who led in attack as well as defence but he epitomised the spirit of the club and for a few years he WAS the club.

 

[Foxbatt]

There was also the point that Robson rarely fell out with anyone including the managers, coaches and the players including opposition players.

 

[Foxbatt]

1.Robbo
2.Keane
3.Cantona

I will never look above Robson, not only was he a captain who led in attack as well as defence but he epitomised the spirit of the club and for a few years he WAS the club.

I know this is about United but he WAS also England. I remember a game against I think it was against Yugoslavia at Wembley, at one minute he was making a last ditch challenge in the box and next minute he was scoring at the other end. With Robson in the team one always felt that he could drag the team up. With Keane though he was a great leader I never felt that.

 

[alexthelion]

The correct answer is:

Robson


Keane
Bruce

 

[Falcow]

I've heard it all now, Bryan Robson being a piss-can is the main reason apart from the occasional Cup win we won feck all ....

@admin, it's my Birthday today, can I have special dispensation to post LOL?

Give your head a wobble and stop making stuff up. Nowhere did I say his drinking was the main reason.

Happy birthday anyway.

 

[Jim Beam]

Robbo <3

 

[Class of 63]

Give your head a wobble and stop making stuff up. Nowhere did I say his drinking was the main reason.

Happy birthday anyway.

Cheers, 57 and I don't look a day over a very old 56 year old.

 

[Falcow]

One day someone will start a thread saying "is it possible to start a thread without Caf opinions quickly becoming completely polarised?"... and the thread would get quickly polarised.


I think that's got lost a bit in semantics and what a word means to people tbf. He said no OBVIOUS drop off and I think meant the team could still compete given the all-round quality in it. Nicky Butt must be one of the best players we've had who wasn't a regular starter? Maybe "massive drop off" is more accurate?

In contrast, when Robson was out, you were looking at the likes of Colin Gibson or maybe playing Whiteside out of position (he'd do a job but I'd have Butt any day as a CM)


Yip. Keane clearly missed by any team, as a player and captain but I can't remember a great result without Robson whereas there are some without Keane. The Bayern game is the obvious one, plus when he got sent off v Arsenal. The team/squad strength meant we could still give ourselves a chance without him... and we had a lot of mentally tough players and other people who acted like captains. Schmeicel, Stam, Rio, etc didn't collapse if Keane wasn't about.

He wasn't pissed in games Not ideal but he still played well over 300 games and had a 1 in 5 goal ratio (Keane 1 in 10, different positions I know)... he wasn't out for seasons due to drink, more his 100% committment to tackles and a little bit of bad luck too.

This is what makes it a tougher question. The teams Robson played with meant he had more opportunities to drag teams to ridiculous results... it's not Keanes fault he played in amazing teams who shared the workload.

Robson was a better player post 25 than before. Again, drink not ideal but I don't think it had a huge impact on playing side.

Digressing to playing ability again but bold is a bit harsh, especially given comparative quality of squads they played in. Robson/pre Keane sides still won a couple of cups, a European trophy (Robson brilliant) and could have won another if Robson hadn't have missed the Juve semi.

He also missed out on years when English teams were banned in Europe (not saying they'd have won mind)

Happy Birthday

Fair enough, probably is harsh but there is truth in it. My overall point is that it's not just performances on the pitch that make a great captain, Keane had a high level of professionalism and discipline, higher than Robsons in my view and vital for a captain, in my view it's what separates them.

The relationship between boozing and being injured shouldn't be understated either, look at Robson, McGrath and Whiteside, the 3 biggest piss heads and all injury prone, I dont believe that's a coincidence.

Robbo always seemed to be injured when we needed him most. Yes Keane missed the 99 CL final and we still won but we were shit in that game and we were lucky to win it.

Anyway Robbo was my favourite player growing up and I love him as much now as i did then.

 

[Class of 63]

The correct answer is:

Robson


Keane
Bruce

Keep your head down mate, @Falcow and his chums are on the warpath

 

[Falcow]

Cheers, 57 and I don't look a day over a very old 56 year old.

You have a few years on me so in fairness you are in a better position to judge both Robbo and Keane.

Enjoy the rest of your birthday man.

 

[Class of 63]

Fair enough, probably is harsh but there is truth in it. My overall point is that it's not just performances on the pitch that make a great captain, Keane had a high level of professionalism and discipline, higher than Robsons in my view and vital for a captain, in my view it's what separates them.

The relationship between boozing and being injured shouldn't be understated either, look at Robson, McGrath and Whiteside, the 3 biggest piss heads and all injury prone, I dont believe that's a coincidence.

Robbo always seemed to be injured when we needed him most. Yes Keane missed the 99 CL final and we still won but we were shit in that game and we were lucky to win it.

Anyway Robbo was my favourite player growing up and I love him as much now as i did then.

And we can thank England overplaying him oft in meaningless friendlies for that, same with Stevie Coppell

 

[Class of 63]

You have a few years on me so in fairness you are in a better position to judge both Robbo and Keane.

Enjoy the rest of your birthday man.

So glad I stopped myself posting I thought Paul Ince(boo) was a better midfielder than Keane, oops

Cheers, I'll try

 

[RedTiger]

Cheers, 57 and I don't look a day over a very old 56 year old.

Happy birthday my friend.

 

[Class of 63]

Happy birthday my friend.

Cheers mate.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Keane without question for me

 

[stevoc]

I've heard it all now, Bryan Robson being a piss-can is the main reason apart from the occasional Cup win we won feck all ....

@admin, it's my Birthday today, can I have special dispensation to post LOL?

Happy Birthday mate.

There was nothing wrong with Robbo being a piss head in the 80's, they all were back then. Pint at half time

 

[2cents]

Cantona is the greatest captain of the PL era. Complete inspiration to the whole team.

He was certainly inspirational but he was only captain for one season.

 

[Irwin99]

Not saying anyone is wrong about Robson but just to give Keane a bit of credit, the games against Arsenal in 99-00 season really epitomised why Keane was a great leader and why we broke our pay structure to keep him at the club. Obviously he scored the two goals to win the game at Highbury but in the 1-1 game at OT we had just got back from Brazil and we looked really fatigued. We were getting dominated all over the park, the crowd were getting on the players backs but Keane really stepped up to drag us to a point in that match. The intensity and what it meant to him was fantastic to watch.

Aside from that aggression, I think people forget how dominant he was in the premier league in terms of the amount of passes made and just controlling games. His quality as a player and his intelligence were big parts of what made him a great captain too.

 

[Class of 63]

Happy Birthday mate.

There was nothing wrong with Robbo being a piss head in the 80's, they all were back then. Pint at half time

Cheers mate.

Only a rumour, but Jim McGregor didn't only have a magic sponge in his bag, but also a selection of miniatures for those that couldn't last 45 minutes without a drink

 

[Champagne Football]

Roy Keane - Struck fear into the opposition like no other.

Darren Fletcher said he had the best first touch he had ever seen.

Rooney said Keane was the best passer he ever played with.

Steven Gerrard says Keane is the greatest midfielder in Premier league history.

 

[Class of 63]

Roy Keane - Struck fear into the opposition like no other.

Darren Fletcher said he had the best first touch he had ever seen.

Rooney said Keane was the best passer he ever played with.

Steven Gerrard says Keane is the greatest midfielder in Premier league history.

And your point is?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Robbo
Keano
Rio

Can we really place Rio on the list? He was never actually an official captain. Vidic was the official captain after Neville retired.

Rio was only the 3rd choice captain prior & post Neville's retirement.

 

[Champagne Football]

And your point is?

My point being that Obertan was our greatest player

 

[stevoc]

Cheers mate.

Only a rumour, but Jim McGregor didn't only have a magic sponge in his bag, but also a selection of miniatures for those that couldn't last 45 minutes without a drink

I'd believe it mate and it makes sense. Everyone needs some half time refreshment after all.

 

[2mufc0]

Keane for me, you just felt that bit more confident when he was in the lineup, the person who said he wasn't missed when he didn't play is chatting bollox and probably wasn't watching United at the time.

 

[2mufc0]

Peak Vidic was also one of my favourites you could tell he would instill confidence in the team when on the pitch.

 

[Class of 63]

My point being that Obertan was our greatest player

Yeah, I thought that's what you meant

 

[Class of 63]

I'd believe it mate and it makes sense. Everyone needs some half time refreshment after all.

Those halftime orange segments soaked in vodka was just what the Doctored ordered

 

[RedTiger]

And we can thank England overplaying him oft in meaningless friendlies for that, same with Stevie Coppell

True. I think Robbos injuries with England definitely pushed the apathy quite a lot of utd fans have with supporting England.

Roy Keane - Struck fear into the opposition like no other.

Darren Fletcher said he had the best first touch he had ever seen.

Rooney said Keane was the best passer he ever played with.

Steven Gerrard says Keane is the greatest midfielder in Premier league history.

let's weigh it up with some quotes on Robbo

“He was the ultimate midfielder. He got everywhere, scored goals and was a leader. He didn’t give you a second on the ball. If you got it, you knew Bryan would get stuck in to you. My favourite player of all time. I always remember when he used to play for West Brom and he had that curly daft hair and I remember him running from box-to-box and he scored a header from about 18 yards out. For someone to come back from three broken legs and still play the way he played was phenomenal… captain of England. The guy was phenomenal and everyone looked up to him as a player, a great bloke. He is a one-off. One of the greatest players of all time, for me. If I’d had end-to-end stuff like him, I like to think I’d have been even better.”

– Paul Gascoigne’s Bryan Robson quotes

“An influential person in the dressing room, well-liked by the players, a great captain, and courage? Well, three broken legs, a broken collarbone, a hundred and one hamstring injuries, ankle injuries, and still played till 37 years of age! So that tells you something about the man. Oh, fantastic. He had good control, was a decisive tackler, passed the ball well and his combination of stamina and perceptive reading of movement enabled him to make sudden and deadly infiltrations from midfield into the opposition’s box.””

— Sir Alex Ferguson quote on former Manchester United skipper

“Bryan was three players in one – a tackler, a goal maker and a goal taker.

– Sir Bobby Robson quote on captain marvel

“I told Martin Edwards (then Manchester United chairman) when he signed Bryan Robson: ‘It’s not even a risk. He’s solid gold.’”

— Ron Atkinson on Robbo

“What Bobby Charlton was to my father, Bryan Robson was to me – and still is. But Bryan, as well as being great going forward, could tackle and he could defend. I could never do either of those things.”

– David Beckham on Bryan Robson

“As a midfield player, Robson had everything – goals, passing, tackling, and a remarkable work-rate. Captain Marvel for Manchester United and England and a true leader who was brave to a fault, injuries prevented him from reaching a deserved century of England caps. The outstanding British footballer of the 1980s who stuck around to inspire United’s re-emergence as England’s top club side under Sir Alex Ferguson. His namesake Bobby Robson swore by him during eight years in charge of the national team, and judges don’t come any shrewder than Bobby and Fergie.”

– Jimmy Greaves’ Bryan Robson quotes

“When Robson plays football, he must expect to get hurt, because that’s him. When he sees a ball, irrespective of where it is on a football field, he automatically goes for it. Afterwards, he sometimes says, ‘I don’t really know why I went for it.’ And he’ll be asking that when he’s lying in the treatment room. But that is Robson, and that is the end of the story with him.”

— Brian Clough quote on Bryan Robson

“I got in the England squad and it was almost like hero worship with this fella. He carried England in the ’80s in my opinion. He could run further than anyone, he was the best player, he was all-action. The one commodity he had – he was unselfish. He put the rest of the group before himself – that’s the sign of a great player.”

– Stuart Pearce’s Bryan Robson quotes

Now I'm not trying to diminish Keanes contribution as a captain because I'll be the first to say he's the greatest premier league captain, but Robbo was Utds best captain.

 

[paulscholes18]

Keane - led us in our must successful period

 

[Eckers99]

So glad I stopped myself posting I thought Paul Ince(boo) was a better midfielder than Keane, oops

Cheers, I'll try

Paul Ince was fecking great for a couple of years. Shame how that turned out.

That aside, Happy Birthday old boy

 

[POF]

Bryan Robson and by quite some distance, if you turned up at the match and found out Robbo wasn't playing it was oh ffs we've got our work cut out today, if Keane was missing, granted in a better team/squad, you were always confident Nicky Butt, or occasionally Phil Neville could do the same job with no obvious drop-off.

And Cantona, a different type of Captain who the Class of 92 wanted/needed to impress, more than him being a shouter and bawler.

 

[GailSpaceWynand]

Can we please not make this a pissing contest? I mean we are discussing arguably 2 of the best captains ever not just for United.

A lot of revisionism going on (from both sides) - Keanu was definitely underrated as a football player (Ince better than Keanu? Butt or Nev could do the same job? ) ; not his fault he played with better players so didn't have to do most of it himself.

The same way we shouldn't give flak to Robbo for being born in an era of drinking culture or being part of a United side with considerably less success (Europe ban didn't help either)

 

[Snuffkin]

Can we really place Rio on the list? He was never actually an official captain. Vidic was the official captain after Neville retired.

Rio was only the 3rd choice captain prior & post Neville's retirement.

Lifted the CL trophy

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Lifted the CL trophy

He was our 3rd choice captain in that season not the first choice, Neville & Giggs were the first & second choice. He was never our official club captain. Unless if we can just list anyone who ever grab the armband. May be we can make Rio in exceptional case since he probably captain us half of the time in 07/08 & 08/09.

 

[Snuffkin]

May be we can make Rio in exceptional case since he probably captain us half of the time in 07/08 & 08/09.

He was good at haranging referees and had the respect of fellow professionals

 

[Class of 63]

Paul Ince was fecking great for a couple of years. Shame how that turned out.

That aside, Happy Birthday old boy

He was only a kid when he joined, but his first 18 months/2 years at United he looked as though he had the potential to get close to Bryan Robson's level he was that good, but sadly it all went to him head, now if I see him on TV i just switch over which is sad, but ....

Cheers.