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US/UK/France launch airstrikes in Syria

2cents

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Nucks

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If it is a terrorist group doing it shouldn't it be obvious who gave them said chemicals?
ISIS, Al-Qaeda (Al-Nusra) and other radical elements overran about half of Syria in 2012 I think it was now? This was before Syria and Assad agreed to destroy its chemical weapons. When Assad complied, according to the UN I think about 50% (50% may not be the right number, but it was less than all of the known weapon stocks) of known chemical weapons were destroyed.

~50% of the country overrun. ~50% of the chemical weapons destroyed. There is absolutely no question that ISIS and Al-Nusra (whatever their current name is) got their hands on chemical weapons stockpiles. The confirmed chemical attacks have also at least once been tied to the chemical signature of known Syrian chemical weapons. So the weapons almost certainly are of Syrian origin. The issue is, who the hell knows where that other ~50% is, and who all has it. ISIS and Nusra certainly do or did.
 

Nucks

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Its a classic tactic. They would like us arguing with one another in order to dilute their actions. The ultimate goal would be for us to question the very concept of truth, at which point everything is subjective and immune from any moral scrutiny.
Got any mainstream sources to corroborate this ?
That's a one off situation though. A vast majority of mainstream reporting is spot on. The only times people don't like it is when it doesn't suit their desired end state. Then they go searching for propaganda to do just that.
LOL.

Sorry, Raoul, I like you from our interactions you seem logical and rational, but you're the most biased person I've ever encountered on the internet regarding US foreign policy, and I am active on all sorts of places, from reddit ask a historian, to the historum and all sorts of other mediums that delve into US foreign policy among other historical topics.
 

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LOL.

Sorry, Raoul, I like you from our interactions you seem logical and rational, but you're the most biased person I've ever encountered on the internet regarding US foreign policy, and I am active on all sorts of places, from reddit ask a historian, to the historum and all sorts of other mediums that delve into US foreign policy among other historical topics.
I like you too Nucks. Especially your MMA posts.
 

Nucks

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I like you too Nucks. Especially your MMA posts.
My stance is, I don't know if Assad is doing it. I don't think he is, because it's so illogical, and there are other more logical explanations. Unless there is a smoking gun, which we don't have, I have to rely on my logic and reason. Winning war, what am I going to do? I know, do something that could involve the international community to smash me. It just doesn't make sense to me logically, and we know that there is a lot of chemical material out there unaccounted for when the country was overrun.

On the flip side, what do these terrorists do? Target civilians for political and military capital. Maybe Assad is just completely batshit insane, and he is in his bunker devising maniacal plans to exterminate and inflict horrors on his civilians. Maybe? On the other hand, we know the terrorists ARE batshit insane, and some of them definitely have access to Syrian chemical weapons, and that IS what they do. Unless we get that smoking gun, I go with occams razor.
 

Raoul

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My stance is, I don't know if Assad is doing it. I don't think he is, because it's so illogical, and there are other more logical explanations. Unless there is a smoking gun, which we don't have, I have to rely on my logic and reason. Winning war, what am I going to do? I know, do something that could involve the international community to smash me. It just doesn't make sense to me logically, and we know that there is a lot of chemical material out there unaccounted for when the country was overrun.

On the flip side, what do these terrorists do? Target civilians for political and military capital. Maybe Assad is just completely batshit insane, and he is in his bunker devising maniacal plans to exterminate and inflict horrors on his civilians. Maybe? On the other hand, we know the terrorists ARE batshit insane, and some of them definitely have access to Syrian chemical weapons, and that IS what they do. Unless we get that smoking gun, I go with occams razor.
Assad has been doing it for years. See the HRW report/video I posted. He continues to do it because he has calculated there will be no repercussions with Putin protecting him. A risky presumption.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/05/...idespread-and-systematic-use-chemical-weapons

 

The Firestarter

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My stance is, I don't know if Assad is doing it. I don't think he is, because it's so illogical, and there are other more logical explanations. Unless there is a smoking gun, which we don't have, I have to rely on my logic and reason. Winning war, what am I going to do? I know, do something that could involve the international community to smash me. It just doesn't make sense to me logically, and we know that there is a lot of chemical material out there unaccounted for when the country was overrun.

On the flip side, what do these terrorists do? Target civilians for political and military capital. Maybe Assad is just completely batshit insane, and he is in his bunker devising maniacal plans to exterminate and inflict horrors on his civilians. Maybe? On the other hand, we know the terrorists ARE batshit insane, and some of them definitely have access to Syrian chemical weapons, and that IS what they do. Unless we get that smoking gun, I go with occams razor.
I agree in general, however, if Assatin do not let an international team in, that's also a bit telling. I know the agent would probably turn out to be from the Syrian stockpile. However, by the exposure areas it may be determined what method of delivery was used.
 

2cents

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Initial U.S. assessment suggests nerve agent used in Syria attack: sources

(Reuters) - The initial assessment of the U.S. government suggests that a nerve agent was used in the weekend chemical attack in Douma, Syria, but further evidence is needed to determine what specific agent was used, U.S. government sources said on Monday.

The sources also said the U.S. government had not yet conclusively determined whether the attack was carried out by President Bashar al-Assad's Syrian government forces.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1HG2C2?__twitter_impression=true
 

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With the Mueller raid on Cohen's offices, this pretty much guarantees a Trump strike on Syria very soon.
 

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So the us and its puppets are considering to intervene when the syrian govt is about to win, what a coincidence that a chemical attack occurred at the right time :wenger:
 

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There is a Spiegel Online video from earlier today with the assessment of Christoph Sydow, who is kind of their leading reporter on Syria. He is convinced this has been an attack by regime forces. I thought his account is quite interesting, as he talks about sources and provides some details, so I have summarized and translated it. All of the following is solely Sydow's portrayal & reasoning, if someone has contradicting information, please share it.

On the credibility of the reports of a gas attack:
According to Sydow, several different sources from Douma confirm fatalities and sickness from poison gas, including doctors, white helmets, reporters and eye-witnesses, and all of these reports match.

On the possible course of events:
According to eye-witnesses, there was a grenade attack from a helicopter on saturday between 19:30 and 20:00, and the victims' symptoms have started to occur in the following minutes and hours. At least 46 persons have died.

Sydow says all the previous claims can be considered safe information. He further says if the gas attack has indeed been committed by helicopter, it could only have been regime forces, as they are the only ones to operate helicopters over Douma. A ground-to-ground missile attack would leave rebel forces as possible perpetrators as well, but there are no indications for this to have happened.

On possible motives and benefits for Assad:
For years now, it has been part of the regime's warfare to spread fear and terror among the population. The message for the Syrians is: you can only lead a relatively safe life inside the dictatorship if you don't oppose it. All who resist are subjected to collective punishment, examples being the starvation of towns, previous gas attacks, and the destruction of whole villages.

As affairs stand, the attack was beneficial for Assad in the short term, as shortly after the attack the Islamists of Jaysh al-Islam have agreed to withdraw to Northern Syria. Assad has therefore cleared the area of enemy forces, and seized the town without having to engage in urban combat.

On the chances of repercussions for Assad:
Trump and Macron have condemned the attack and described it as (again) the crossing of a red line. Sydow says he nevertheless can't see a serious threat for Assad's regime emerging from this. It is possible that the US and France decide to strike Syrian military facilities in the coming days. But that wouldn't change anything about the fundamental situation in Syria, which is Assad continuing his rule with the support of Iran and Russia.

Harsher measures would lead to a serious political clash with Moscow, which Sydow doesn't consider to be in Trump's interest. So for him, symbolic military action is the most likely consequence, which would neither influence the balance of power in Syria, nor prevent possible future gas attacks.
Could it be that the government plane or helicopter hit the facilty or storage where this stuff was stockpiled?
 

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Could it be that the government plane or helicopter hit the facilty or storage where this stuff was stockpiled?
The precise events between the helicopter attack and the symptoms showing is where Sydow is still careful (see the "if" in the second paragraph under the second headline). So yes, I think it's theoretically possible. While he has made up his mind on circumstancial evidence, and what he conceives as the most likely scenario, that's the missing link in the end. I guess only an investigation on the ground could clear that up.
 
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antihenry

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The precise events between the helicopter attack and the symptoms showing is where Sydow is still careful (see the "if" in the second sentence under the second headline). So yes, I think it's theoretically possible. While he has made up his mind on circumstancial evidence, and what he conceives as the most likely scenario, that's the missing link in the end. I guess only an investigation on the ground could clear that up.
I'm not saying this is whappened but all those rebels have to do is keep the chemical stuff in a place like a civilan hospital or right next to it. They control this area so they can do whatever they want. Then feed to Assad people that this location is a legit military target, as I'm sure there are plenty of leaks from both sides and voila, you have another "chemical attack". Or you could just wait for another SAA aerial bombardment and coincide it with your own well placed hit at the warehouse full of chemicals from the ground. I'm sure there are dozens of ways to pull it off and there's no way to have an actual investigation and find out what really happened there given the circumstances.
 

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I normally never get involved on this thread but I have to say the nerve attack doesn’t make any sense if was Assad, he knows he has SOME protection from Putin but he knows that Israel has no problems in bombing their bases and he knows Trump unlike Obama will strike, so why risking? Why using chemical strikes when he’s winning and is matter of time his troops run over the terrorists? Also we are talking about terrorists and like someone said they use civilians as a shield and more civilians deaths better with their cause.
 

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I normally never get involved on this thread but I have to say the nerve attack doesn’t make any sense if was Assad, he knows he has SOME protection from Putin but he knows that Israel has no problems in bombing their bases and he knows Trump unlike Obama will strike, so why risking? Why using chemical strikes when he’s winning and is matter of time his troops run over the terrorists? Also we are talking about terrorists and like someone said they use civilians as a shield and more civilians deaths better with their cause.
You've answered your own post. He has protection from Putin and doesn't think there are any repercussions.
 

Pexbo

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It’s weird how the only medium for Russian propaganda is memes with satire as subtle as a nun trying to sneak a cucumber back to her chambers.

I guess it’s the most effective way to convince those easily duped by conspiracy theories. They get to feel smart, like they’re in on something.
 

JPRouve

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You've answered your own post. He has protection from Putin and doesn't think there are any repercussions.
I really don't get it, is that really the all point? Just because he can?
 

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I really don't get it, is that really the all point? Just because he can?
Well yes. He's been doing it consistently for 4 years so why would this time be any different. If anything, he now has top cover from Putin, so he's more not less, likely to do it.
 

JPRouve

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Well yes. He's been doing it consistently for 4 years so why would this time be any different. If anything, he now has top cover from Putin, so he's more not less, likely to do it.
You have to admit, that if it's accurate he is a strange man. It makes no practical sense.

Either way, it's seems that France are willing to bomb Syria with or without the US, what do you guys intend to do?
 

Raoul

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You have to admit, that if it's accurate he is a strange man. It makes no practical sense.

Either way, it's seems that France are willing to bomb Syria with or without the US, what do you guys intend to do?
Sure it does. If you do something and no one attempts to stop you then you are inclined to feel like you can continue doing it.
 

JPRouve

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Sure it does. If you do something and no one attempts to stop you then you are inclined to feel like you can continue doing it.
But why do you do it in the first place? That's what I thought was weird, I don't see what he gains from it. I'm not saying that you are wrong because I really don't understand the situation.
 

Raoul

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But why do you do it in the first place? That's what I thought was weird, I don't see what he gains from it. I'm not saying that you are wrong because I really don't understand the situation.
To terrorize and intimidate a population into submission. Also, its unknown how much control he has over his own forces beyond simply giving them orders to win at all costs.
 

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It's quite possible he just wanted to finish the job, in which case it makes sense. None of us know the exact situation on the ground so we can't say there is no motive for Assad, because there might be one.

The rebels gassing their own base makes far less sense.
 

Nucks

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It’s weird how the only medium for Russian propaganda is memes with satire as subtle as a nun trying to sneak a cucumber back to her chambers.

I guess it’s the most effective way to convince those easily duped by conspiracy theories. They get to feel smart, like they’re in on something.
I don't believe in conspiracy theories, well, I think JFK was probably shot by more than 1 person, but is there anyone who doesn't think that? I don't think it makes any sense (assad gassing civilians) on any level. It's also difficult to say anything otherwise, because the main stream media is bought and paid for over this entire topic. Do you pay attention to any media sources outside of the BBC, CBS, ABC, MSN, CNN, Fox? My guess is you doubt the credibility of any other news source.

You have to jump through all sorts of logical loops to arrive at "Assad is for sure the one responsible", when there is a giant terrorist sitting in the room, who has chemical weapons, and go, "Yea, naaah, probably not that guy".
 

JPRouve

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To terrorize and intimidate a population into submission. Also, its unknown how much control he has over his own forces beyond simply giving them orders to win at all costs.
Thanks, that last part is interesting.
 

Nucks

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Sure it does. If you do something and no one attempts to stop you then you are inclined to feel like you can continue doing it.
Yet, the US has a long running history of ignoring the likely, or even falsifying the likely, if the unlikely furthers a geopolitical agenda.

Al-Nusra or ISIS or an affiliate using captured gas weapons, and then letting or even guiding the blame on Assad is so far inside the US's wheelhouse, you'd be foolish to doubt it. Is that a conspiracy theory? Was Colin Powell lying in front of the UN a conspiracy theory? Was drawing associations between Iraq and Al-Qaeda a conspiracy theory? Was Tonkin a conspiracy theory? The list goes on and on where the US government has deliberately deceived, or allowed a false narrative to be played out in the media so as to garner public support for an agenda.

So what's more likely. Assad risking everything to gas a few dozen civilians every year or so, when he is making massive gains and the terrorists are getting smashed, as a way to terrorize them into doing his bidding. Add to this a huge percentage of his own civilians don't even believe he is responsible. Or, terrorists whose entire military strategy is to terrorize and brutalize civilians for political and military gain, who captured chemical stockpiles when they overran half of the country are doing it, and the US is doing what the US does, wants regime change, and is allowing, and even fostering the narrative that it was Assad. Is that a conspiracy, or business as usual? Seems like business as usual for the US.
 

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Yet, the US has a long running history of ignoring the likely, or even falsifying the likely, if the unlikely furthers a geopolitical agenda.

Al-Nusra or ISIS or an affiliate using captured gas weapons, and then letting or even guiding the blame on Assad is so far inside the US's wheelhouse, you'd be foolish to doubt it. Is that a conspiracy theory? Was Colin Powell lying in front of the UN a conspiracy theory? Was drawing associations between Iraq and Al-Qaeda a conspiracy theory? Was Tonkin a conspiracy theory? The list goes on and on where the US government has deliberately deceived, or allowed a false narrative to be played out in the media so as to garner public support for an agenda.

So what's more likely. Assad risking everything to gas a few dozen civilians every year or so, when he is making massive gains and the terrorists are getting smashed, as a way to terrorize them into doing his bidding. Add to this a huge percentage of his own civilians don't even believe he is responsible. Or, terrorists whose entire military strategy is to terrorize and brutalize civilians for political and military gain, who captured chemical stockpiles when they overran half of the country are doing it, and the US is doing what the US does, wants regime change, and is allowing, and even fostering the narrative that it was Assad. Is that a conspiracy, or business as usual? Seems like business as usual for the US.
Trump and Macron already know exactly what happened so unlike the Iraq WMD claims, which seems to be the reflexive whataboutism by Putin and Assad apologists these days, they will have pretty accurate information about the delivery mechanism and the sort of chemicals that were used. If it was dropped from an aircraft such as a helicopter dropping a barrel bomb, there are eye witness accounts to corroborate this, and it syncs up to the MO of Assad's previous attack, then at some point a duck is a duck and action will be taken.
 

Nucks

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It's quite possible he just wanted to finish the job, in which case it makes sense. None of us know the exact situation on the ground so we can't say there is no motive for Assad, because there might be one.

The rebels gassing their own base makes far less sense.
Only if you buy into the narrative that they are "rebels" and not what they actually are. Jaish Al-Islam, is an islamist group funded by Saudi Arabia, formed as a counter balance to Al-Nusra, but, supported ISIS in the establishment of an Islamic State under Sharia Law, and was working in close cooperation with Al-Nusra until a couple of years ago. In short, these are not the FSA, they are not part of the FSA, there is nothing moderate at all about this group. They are, terrorists. Pure and simple. They execute civilians, steal humanitarian goods designated for civilians. They are completely radicalized, and believe that any Muslim who is not actively involved in supporting their cause, and believing their exact interpretation of Islam is an infidel and is fair game to slaughter.

So yea, these "rebels" are completely moderate, secular, and would never in a million years think that killing civilians for gain would be a legitimate tactic.

Something people keep ignoring is that these gas attacks always seem to happen when the group in the region is losing decisively, and the group is question always seems to be radicalized wahabist ideologues, who either ARE ISIS, OR Al-Qaeda (Nusra) or worked with both, like Jaish al-Islam. Jaish al-Islam has been accused in the past of using chemical weapons against Aleppo, and Kurdish fighters.
 

Nucks

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Trump and Macron already know exactly what happened so unlike the Iraq WMD claims, which seems to be the reflexive whataboutism by Putin and Assad apologists these days, they will have pretty accurate information about the delivery mechanism and the sort of chemicals that were used. If it was dropped from an aircraft such as a helicopter dropping a barrel bomb, there are eye witness accounts to corroborate this, and it syncs up to the MO of Assad's previous attack, then at some point a duck is a duck and action will be taken.
The eyewitness account was that a grenade or some sort of bomblet resembling a grenade was dropped from the helicopter. Why do you continually ignore that these attacks continually happen in areas that are controlled by 100% terrorist organizations, and only when these terrorist organizations are losing decisively in the area? Is Assad playing 5d chess, or is the obvious, just not obvious enough?
 

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The eyewitness account was that a grenade or some sort of bomblet resembling a grenade was dropped from the helicopter. Why do you continually ignore that these attacks continually happen in areas that are controlled by 100% terrorist organizations, and only when these terrorist organizations are losing decisively in the area? Is Assad playing 5d chess, or is the obvious, just not obvious enough?
That's the entire point. The areas are controlled by forces Assad is attempting to destroy. Its therefore not rocket science that he would go after them. He has repeatedly used aircraft to deploy his chemical attacks so it doesn't take the lovechild of inspector gadget and MacGuyver to figure out who is doing it. Anyone not busy twisting themselves into pretzels to apologize for Assad and Putin should be able to see this.
 

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You have to admit, that if it's accurate he is a strange man. It makes no practical sense.

Either way, it's seems that France are willing to bomb Syria with or without the US, what do you guys intend to do?
Calling Syrian President Bashar al-Assad a "monster", Ms Haley said that if the UN Security Council acts or not, "either way, the United States will respond".
Seems like both are about to respond.
 

2cents

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something people keep ignoring is that these gas attacks always seem to happen when the group in the region is losing decisively
This is the third major chemical attack to have drawn international attention and the prospect of an international response. The areas targeted in the 2013 Ghouta attacks remained in rebel control for years after. Khan Sheikhoun, site of last year's attack, remains in rebel hands to this day. So the rebel hold on these places can't be said to have been on the verge of destruction at the time of those attacks.

Furthermore, the opposition claims that the regime has been using small-scale chemical weapons attacks throughout the conflict. There were dozens of reports of such cases during the siege of Aleppo, though none extensive enough to draw the prospect of intervention. The rebels in East Aleppo were no less unsavory than JAI, yet no large-scale chemical attack occurred. The opposition claim that such small-scale attacks have been extremely effective in breaking the will of besieged populations to resist regime assaults. Obviously you can dismiss these claims out of hand as you wish, but they do paint a picture where the use of such weapons by the regime becomes understandable.

Jaish al-Islam, is an Islamist group funded by Saudi Arabia, formed as a counter balance to Al-Nusra, but, supported ISIS in the establishment of an Islamic State under Sharia Law, and was working in close cooperation with Al-Nusra until a couple of years ago. In short, these are not the FSA, they are not part of the FSA, there is nothing moderate at all about this group. They are, terrorists. Pure and simple. They execute civilians, steal humanitarian goods designated for civilians
In the general context of the Syrian Civil War, there's nothing particularly special about JAI or their ideology and brutality, on either or all sides of the conflict. What should be enough to make us question the idea that they'd happily gas the civilians of Douma, however, is that they're indigenous to the city - it's literally where they hail from, where the group was founded, where they draw their recruits from. The people of Douma are their people. That's not to say they're particularly popular there, most reports indicate that the population is completely sick and tired of them. But again, it's another detail that should cause the skeptics to at least question the regime narrative here.

I know JAI has at times allied to Nusra, although relations are extremely bad currently. I've only ever heard of them fighting ISIS (since the Nusra-ISIS split obviously), what's your source for them supporting ISIS?

So yea, these "rebels" are completely moderate, secular, and would never in a million years think that killing civilians for gain would be a legitimate tactic.
Literally nobody is arguing this. As I said earlier, I only ever see the Assad cultists arguing along these lines nowadays.