Piñera (Chile) did. Chilean businessmen licking their lips, ready to take over.
Venezuela – socialist paradise on the verge of collapse
- Thread starter PedroMendez
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Maduro's election has widely been denounced as fraudulent by international bodies though. Subverting the results of elections probably stops being anti-democratic when the elections themselves are literally rigged. I mean accepting the results of an anti-democratic election is hardly a democratic stance to take. It's just acquiescing to authoritarianism.
Once the democratic process has been seized in that way I'm not sure there is a way out that doesn't at least initially involve some sort of coup or intervention to restore fair elections.
Whether this opposition actually support real democracy though, I have no idea.
Oh, my bad.
Agree with all of that but I haven't read of an actual intervention up to now. To be perfectly honest I don't know enough to really judge either, but the news coming from Venezuela the past 5 years or so have been constantly terrible. I have no clue about this new chap and what a potential presidency could mean.
Maduro is Chavez without the charm. People in Venezuela have lost like 10kg+ in average during his spell and are starving. A change here is a good thing.
Almost all the Hispanic countries have supported Guaidó. Still missing México (and Spain). Lenin Moreno, from Ecuador also did it a while ago, Maduro replied by calling him a disastrous nazi fascista, anti-Bolivarian traitor
For now Mexico/Andres Manuel will continue to support Maduro. Hardly surprising.
Countries that support guaido: Argentina, Brazil, Peru, Costa Rica, Colombia, USA, Canada, Ecuador, Paraguay, Chile, Guatemala.
Countries that explicitly support maduro: Russia, Mexico, turkey, Bolivia, cuba
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Will he take responsibility for their safety?
The Guaido guy wants to become president like this or have new elections if Maduro steps down? If it's the first it's a bit sketchy. Either way, Maduro is a dead man walking, no way his regime can turn things around.
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Viva la anti-revolution
In Bogota at the moment and cheering Venezuelans going by the hotel constantly.
I hope drumf doesn't get any other diversion ideas from this...
What Maduro had been doing in Venezuela is appaling, has to be removed from power. But at the same time foreign intervention is always troublesome, specially with US history on latinamerica coups and change of regimes. I am not in favour or what Trumo did, but all my Venezuelan friends that leaves in Venezuela an they were real middle class (not by any chance close to elite) had been struggling seriously. One of them, his father, a university teacher had to leave to work as a vendor in Peru. Him was about to follow his steps but was able to find a job as store administrator. What he had been telling me on dollar fluctuation is insane. Changing prices daily or even twice a day. When doing a transaction, his dentist reserved the right to charge more if in that precise instance the dollar in the black market fluctuates. Telling me that he has to have his bread camouflaged because if not, everybody would ask a piece on the way home
So if they are telling me (they never liked Trump) that is the only option, I trust them. But if Guaido doesn't do anything to restore true democracy through short term elections after stabilizing the country, Venezuela will not improve, specially in the trust on the politicians.
All southamerican governments supported Guaido, because if not they would be exposed in 2019 in the biggest refugee diaspora of south american history. in the last 2 years, 2 million of venezuelan left the country. This year was forseen even more
So if they are telling me (they never liked Trump) that is the only option, I trust them. But if Guaido doesn't do anything to restore true democracy through short term elections after stabilizing the country, Venezuela will not improve, specially in the trust on the politicians.
All southamerican governments supported Guaido, because if not they would be exposed in 2019 in the biggest refugee diaspora of south american history. in the last 2 years, 2 million of venezuelan left the country. This year was forseen even more
The safety of the embassy being his casus belli? Wouldn’t put it past him.
He already asked why we couldn’t just send the military there to straighten everything out earlier in his tenure.
Why are people making this like being an US initiated revolution? What does US has to do with it, or it has just become cool to slam US for everything.
Yes, Trump recognized the new president, but so did all of South American countries bar Uruguay and Bolivia, some European countries, EU council and so on. Let's not start pretending that Argentina and US have the same foreign policy, for God's sake.
Maduro has to go.
Yes, Trump recognized the new president, but so did all of South American countries bar Uruguay and Bolivia, some European countries, EU council and so on. Let's not start pretending that Argentina and US have the same foreign policy, for God's sake.
Maduro has to go.
In case this was related to my comment, I do not claim that the US is fully responsible for this, I implied that it would serve a suitable diversion tactic for drumf to make an intervention now. Will steal a bunch of news cycles and it's not like he hasnt mentioned this before.
Last updates
- Maduro assets are being frozen in anywher that US has a saying. Maybe fake news but they sized 1.2 billions USD
- Pompeeo said that they will fund Guaido (the guy that proclaimed himself as president through articles 233 and 333 of the constitution) with anything that might need
- The army stands by Maduro...for now
- US diplomats are being evacuated
- Abrams appointed as head of operations on this coup, delivering democracy, rightful presidency whatever suits the reader better. The same Abrams that was involved in the failed coup against Chavez in 2002. The same Abrams in charge of taking out Noriega from Nicaragua in 1989
- European Union to recognize Guaido if Maduro doesn't appoint elections in 8 days (will never happen)
- Guaido to appoint elections in 6-9 months
Our government still say they recognize Maduro as the leader of Venezuela, though with them being our closest neighbor, I can understand them wanting to remain somewhat neutral on this for now.
The bigger issue though, is that something really needs to be done. Regardless of who is running things, Venezuela needs a lot of help. It’s causing loads of problems for us as well. There’s been a huge influx of illegal immigrants from Venezuela to Trinidad. Now I fully understand that these people need help, and I’m not anti immigration, but feck me our population is 1.3 million people and we have enough problems as it is with the now lower oil prices. We can’t handle mass immigration from a country with a population of 31 million, it’s just not feasible.
Some kind of proper intervention is needed to get Venezuela back on its feet.
The bigger issue though, is that something really needs to be done. Regardless of who is running things, Venezuela needs a lot of help. It’s causing loads of problems for us as well. There’s been a huge influx of illegal immigrants from Venezuela to Trinidad. Now I fully understand that these people need help, and I’m not anti immigration, but feck me our population is 1.3 million people and we have enough problems as it is with the now lower oil prices. We can’t handle mass immigration from a country with a population of 31 million, it’s just not feasible.
Some kind of proper intervention is needed to get Venezuela back on its feet.
What's Guaido actually like?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-call...uncertain-new-course-in-venezuela-11548430259
Guess who's been brought in as a special envoy
https://www.thenation.com/article/a...minal-may-become-our-second-ranking-diplomat/
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This recent worrying (for the US) developments may have something to do with wanting to remove Maduro ASAP.
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...mber-outpost-on-this-carribean-island-reports
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...mber-outpost-on-this-carribean-island-reports
Trump administration’s secret plan offering support for opposition leader Juan Guaidó was preconceived and tightly coordinated.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-call...uncertain-new-course-in-venezuela-11548430259
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-call...uncertain-new-course-in-venezuela-11548430259
Spain will recognize Guaidó if in 8 days he doesn't call for elections , which I guess is the E.U position altogether.
It seems that Maduro has control of the army and I don't how that could change.
Yesterday there were rumors about a meeting Diosdado Cabello-Guaidó
Edit: what 4bars said, I hadn't read it
It seems that Maduro has control of the army and I don't how that could change.
Yesterday there were rumors about a meeting Diosdado Cabello-Guaidó
Edit: what 4bars said, I hadn't read it
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I don't think anyone would deny that there's been/will be some form US involvement - there typically is whenever shite hits the fan in Latin America.
But there's been a trend over the past few days wherein people seem to be suggesting this is purely a US orchestrated coup, done against the will of the Venezuelan people who apparently still love Maduro. It's an awful take in that it strips the Venezuelan people of their agency entirely - no, there's not a chance they might actually no longer like Maduro, due to the fact they've been starving and stuff, it's all America's fault instead.
I'd be extremely sceptical as to whether Maduro's successor is going to be any good. Certainly in a lot of countries where corruption has been prevalent you don't lurch from one corrupt President to an entirely clean one all of a sudden. And I don't deny or doubt that the US have been complicit in directly funding and helping an array of brutal fascist regimes in Latin America over the past century purely for their own economic self-advancement and to stop communism, irrespective of the consequences. But at the same time in cases like this the US aren't the sole actors able to dictate the direction of a country on a whim. For their own self-benefit they will obviously support Maduro's opponents now, but Maduro's actual removal - and the anger against him - isn't something that's primarily been orchestrated by the US. He's responsible for that, and anyone on the left should be highlighting the brazen corruption of his and Chavez's governments instead of shifting 100% of the blame onto the US as well.
Have to admit, I’m really struggling to fit the tiny amount I know and understand about what’s going on in Venezuela into my preferred ideological straight jacket.
Er....you might want to look at the post I'm replying to and read my post again.
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Superb. Just so accurately encapsulates the entire conversation in one sentence. I really struggle to understand people who see literally every single event through the narrow lens of their preferred ideology, without any real appreciation that the world is rarely black and white and that there is so much nuance to events.
Is it really difficult to believe all of 'Maduro is an abysmal dictator, the Venezuelan economy is dropping and Venezuela has now become one of the most dangerous South American countries, that there is a bit of a crisis with Venezuelan migration, that many Venezuelans may want Maduro out......but also that the Americans may be interfering and that an aspect of it may well be the link antihenry posted (if it is true)?
Why can't it be all of the above?
Because we MUST have an opinion and stake out our position. But the day is only so long, there's no way we can read an actual book or two on Venezuelan politics before this crisis fizzles out and the world's attention has moved onto Bahrain/Chad/Azerbaijan/Sri Lanka/wherever. And don't tell me to go talk or listen to some Venezuelans, that would involve obscure names and unknown languages, how can we trust any of them? So who to turn to? Disinterested, concerned statesmen such as Pompeo or Lavrov. Bastions of journalistic integrity like CNN or RT. Noted experts on Latin America like Owen Jones or Brendan O'Neill. We must make do with one or the other of those willing to stick their uninformed neck on the line for the sake of their hot-take, and make sure to double-down when shit gets complicated, knowing that the next crisis is just around the corner and all will soon be forgotten.
I really struggle to understand people who see literally every single event through the narrow lens of their preferred ideology, without any real appreciation that the world is rarely black and white and that there is so much nuance to events.
Is it really difficult to believe all of 'Maduro is an abysmal dictator, the Venezuelan economy is dropping and Venezuela has now become one of the most dangerous South American countries, that there is a bit of a crisis with Venezuelan migration, that many Venezuelans may want Maduro out......but also that the Americans may be interfering and that an aspect of it may well be the link antihenry posted (if it is true)?
Why can't it be all of the above?
This is the humble brag version of a hot take.
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In the end is a fecked up situation, that will be solved in a fecked up intervention and the ones ill pay will be always the same.
They can't be that stupid, can they?
What I always liked about John Bolton is that he doesn't even bother to pretend, just says what he's really after.
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If only there was a way of sanctioning America and forcing them to remove their president ... find it a bit rich for them to be part of a consensus to remove someone else’s ruler (likewise the United Kingdom).
Very true, in no way am I above a bit of posturing.I read that the United States has frozen the money of the Venezuelan oil company ,from where they import a million barrels?.
Who buys the oil of a country? Does the government buy it and then distribute it? or is it totally privatized?
Can the United States do without that oil from one day to the next?
If Venezuela have so much oil, why not produce more? infrastructure?
Who buys the oil of a country? Does the government buy it and then distribute it? or is it totally privatized?
Can the United States do without that oil from one day to the next?
If Venezuela have so much oil, why not produce more? infrastructure?
I reckon Colombia is right. They can leverage existing or past agreements that allowed US troops to operate there and keep Venezuelans from starting a mass migration to the promised land. And then invade when the time is right.
I should say I do agree with what your post was saying.