[tomaldinho1]

On first viewing I didn't really blame him for the first goal, but watching it back you can see that Lindelof suddenly dropping back is the only reason Salah was onside. Our four defenders were all holding a good line until that moment and Salah would have run offside, but just as Firmino is about to make the pass Lindelof starts sprinting backwards and is 3 metres or so behind the others.


Second goal he's obviously trying to show the Liverpool player down the outside but he's just too far away from him.

First goal it isn't even about him simply playing him onside, it's an error but I have some sympathy for a slower CB who is very aware of their own immobility compared to someone as rapid as Salah. The issue for me is the lack of awareness that he actually creates the passing lane to Salah - Lindelof is aware of Salah (hence why he drops off) and he and Shaw are in a good position but then he drops off in the wrong direction, it's like he's half expecting the ball to be played between him & Maguire, steps in field a touch trying to pre-empt it and the gap opens up.

Let's also not forget, the assist is made possible from some lazy McT defending as well.

 

[Meep]

This part is funny when you rewatch the goal Milner’s on the halfway line almost when the ball is passed. He’s never anywhere near Lindelof.

You owe me a laugh! :-) Maybe I am mistaken. Looked like Millner in the video above.

 

[lRed]

Positional sense. One on ones. Spacial awareness. Interceptions. Concentration. Passing. Control.

Thank you.

 

[Eugenius]

Yes. He's very good positionally. Don't you find it incredibly strange how a guy that is slow, weak, terrible in the air and positionally poor can inexplicably keep some of the best attacking teams in the world quiet?

No, he really doesn't. The difference is Bailly isn't called up on the small things Lindelof is. Take Fulham for example. There's a lot of similarities for us to take from it.

For their goal, Bailly completely switches off, leaves a gaping whole in the middle of our CBs, and Lookman meanders through the middle to put it in the net. The blame? Well, that was put at the feet of Maguire and Pogba by many. Even AWB was at considered at fault. Yet we have a remarkably similar situation against Liverpool, a team Lindelof successfully shut out half a week before, where the midfield puts no pressure whatsoever on the man on the ball, Salah runs off Shaw, leaving Lindelof completely exposed to a player running in behind at full pace. The majority of the blame is placed at Lindelofs feet. Why? What was the difference? Did Bailly get half a dozen pages questioning his ability? No. In fact, Ole was roundly criticized for putting Lindelof in the starting XI ahead of him, a game that Lindelof was defensively flawless in.

The Loftus-Cheek chance was also remarkably similar to Liverpools first goal. The ball was played into their CF, Bailly allowed him to receive the ball at feet, turn and play a pass in between Maguire and Shaw, and if we're being honest, RLC should've scored. If Lindelof had been Maguire or Bailly in that situation, it doesn't matter which one, he would've been criticized for either being too passive in closing the CF down, or for allowing RLF to get in behind. It genuinely baffles me why so many go out of their way to look so damn hard at Lindelof to find fault, while giving others a free pass.

I don't think our defence is really keeping anyone quiet to be honest. We struggle to keep clean sheets consistently and had a better defensive record with Smalling et al before Lindelof became a regular in the team. That's not to blame it all on Lindelof but he is the weakest link in there, and we need an upgrade on him if we are to start winning tight big games (in fact he made big individual errors in all three semi finals we lost last year).

And quite frankly CB is one of the positions where you can carry someone with weaknesses - it's not like we made Henderson look stupid the other day. Or that players like Blind, Fernandinho were regularly exposed.

That doesn't change the fact that Lindelof is an average player, who if he played for Everton no one would be clamouring to play for us. Bailly definitely has a mistake in him but isn't any more error prone than Lindelof, and is otherwise the better defender / complementary to the back line.

 

[A-man]

I really do not know what else can be said about Lindelof as a defender as no matter what Ole says the player is just not up to it and it amazes me how he is playing at this level.
He is not quick
He is not dominant in the air
He is not brave
He has not got good positional sense
He is not a threat to the opposition in set plays
I think it will take a long term injury to force Ole’s hand to regularly play Eric and Axel to realise this.

Bailly is quicker for sure. Would say Lindelof'sspeed is average for a CB in the PL.

Lindelof is not dominant in the air, but our second best CB in the air. He challenge for almost as many aerials defensively as Maguire and has won 2.5 aerial duels per game this season which is roughly the same level as Matip, Gomez and Fabinho if we talk Liverpool. Bailly is challenging less and winning less. I would say Lindelof is average in the air for a PL CB.

If he is brave or not is very subjective and emotional. In general most would agree he doesn't take risks, and that he should challenge more in some situations.

Most people, even those who don't like him, would agree his positioning is good. I think this and his reading of the game are two of his best qualities.

He is not a big threat at corners, only one corner goal this PL season. Pretty average, I would say.

I'm not asking Lindelof to run backwards, i'm saying to step across into Salah's path and block the space between him and Shaw.

Salah can only run between Shaw and Lindelof, but the pass can still come either between Shaw/Lindelof, or in the big gap between Lindelof and Maguire. To me it is not a very strange choice to cover the central space and expect Shaw to cover the outer. (however I would like to hear an elite defender comment this situation as I am not sure how they are expected to act and cover. )

 

[Adam-Utd]

@A-man From watching the replays again Lindelof expects the ball to come between him and Maguire so he starts running that direction, instead the ball gets slotted to Salah's feet rather than behind him. That's why he ends up getting spun around and is facing the wrong way.

In an ideal situation he should be facing Salah with his body and then twisting his neck to keep his eye on the ball, that way he can judge the flight of the ball and keep Salah in check too. It obviously happens quickly and it's not the worst mistake in the world, but he could have stopped it.

 

[ivaldo]

I don't think our defence is really keeping anyone quiet to be honest. We struggle to keep clean sheets consistently and had a better defensive record with Smalling et al before Lindelof became a regular in the team. That's not to blame it all on Lindelof but he is the weakest link in there, and we need an upgrade on him if we are to start winning tight big games (in fact he made big individual errors in all three semi finals we lost last year).

And quite frankly CB is one of the positions where you can carry someone with weaknesses - it's not like we made Henderson look stupid the other day. Or that players like Blind, Fernandinho were regularly exposed.

That doesn't change the fact that Lindelof is an average player, who if he played for Everton no one would be clamouring to play for us. Bailly definitely has a mistake in him but isn't any more error prone than Lindelof, and is otherwise the better defender / complementary to the back line.

Except Liverpool, Wolves, City, Leipzig etc? I've lost count how many times it's been declared that Lindelof is going to get destroyed by X for him to keep them quiet all game. It's basically a meme at this point.

That's as much to do with the way we set up as anything else. Our biggest weakness as a team is we don't defend well as a unit. Blind played in a side that kept the ball well and pressed relentlessly. That applies to both Fernandinho and Henderson. Conversely, our defenders have to do considerably more defending. No he didn't back big individual errors in each of the semi finals. The Sevilla game is a classic example of exactly what I'm talking about. AWB was entirely at fault for they goal. If he had done job then nobody would even be discussing it.

You haven't even touched on the comparisons I put in the previous posts regarding the pretty glaring mistakes Bailly made in his performance against Fulham (and despite this, there was still a clamour for him to start). It's the typical double standards we tend to see when the discussion is brought up. You look at how he reacts for the Villa goal when we beat them 2-1. He sees Grealish in acres of space on his own. Lindelof has on this forum genuinely been criticized for not instructing AWB where to play, on more than one occasion.
If that were him he would be crucified for just standing and pointing. There's a reason why Ole and the coaches select Lindelof in the big matches. It's because he's the better defender.

 

[tomaldinho1]

@A-man From watching the replays again Lindelof expects the ball to come between him and Maguire so he starts running that direction, instead the ball gets slotted to Salah's feet rather than behind him. That's why he ends up getting spun around and is facing the wrong way.

In an ideal situation he should be facing Salah with his body and then twisting his neck to keep his eye on the ball, that way he can judge the flight of the ball and keep Salah in check too. It obviously happens quickly and it's not the worst mistake in the world, but he could have stopped it.

This is the opposite of what he 'should' do. Body position initially is great from all of them, Lindelof (and the whole back four) are in a very nice position - there is good spacing, they have control (visual) of any runners and Shaw has come narrow to make the pass behind Lindelof to Salah almost impossible. Issue is Lindelof drops off at an angle, this opens the space for the pass and Salah does the rest with a nice finish.

When you are that close to your own goal, if you drop in a straight line or (i.e not like Lindelof who steps infield slightly) that pass is not going to be attempted or is going to be intercepted 9 times out of 10. Just watch Salah, when he sees Lindelof step infield, he alters his run ever so slightly (3 secs in on the vid) to exaggerate the corridor of space, that part is just class movement but Lindelof makes it an easy pass. PL football is a game of fine margins and when the ball actually passes Lindelof it's what half a metre or less from him and Shaw. You can see how off balance Lindelof is when he tries to correct himself but it's too late.

 

[Eugenius]

Except Liverpool, Wolves, City, Leipzig etc? I've lost count how many times it's been declared that Lindelof is going to get destroyed by X for him to keep them quiet all game. It's basically a meme at this point.

That's as much to do with the way we set up as anything else. Our biggest weakness as a team is we don't defend well as a unit. Blind played in a side that kept the ball well and pressed relentlessly. That applies to both Fernandinho and Henderson. Conversely, our defenders have to do considerably more defending. No he didn't back big individual errors in each of the semi finals. The Sevilla game is a classic example of exactly what I'm talking about. AWB was entirely at fault for they goal. If he had done job then nobody would even be discussing it.

You haven't even touched on the comparisons I put in the previous posts regarding the pretty glaring mistakes Bailly made in his performance against Fulham (and despite this, there was still a clamour for him to start). It's the typical double standards we tend to see when the discussion is brought up. You look at how he reacts for the Villa goal when we beat them 2-1. He sees Grealish in acres of space on his own. Lindelof has on this forum genuinely been criticized for not instructing AWB where to play, on more than one occasion.
If that were him he would be crucified for just standing and pointing. There's a reason why Ole and the coaches select Lindelof in the big matches. It's because he's the better defender.

Liverpool, Leipzig, City - teams we've conceded 2-3 goals against in games this season?

If it was AWB completely at fault for the Sevilla goal then why did Bruno have a go at Lindelof? De Jong, sole CF, scored on the 6 yard line in the middle of the goal and Lindelof didn't even see him.


Him also losing Giroud for the first goal against Chelsea. Which to be completely fair there is also a mistake by Williams, but he's not a first team regular.


Him also failing to get back into position for Mahrez's goal.

I do agree that we can micro analyse defenders too much. And Bailly makes mistakes too. But it is as much as a myth that Lindelof is 'good positionally' as much as people saying he will get bullied every game. He's an average defender we should be upgrading - whether that's Bailly or not we can debate.

 

[A-man]

@A-man From watching the replays again Lindelof expects the ball to come between him and Maguire so he starts running that direction, instead the ball gets slotted to Salah's feet rather than behind him. That's why he ends up getting spun around and is facing the wrong way.

In an ideal situation he should be facing Salah with his body and then twisting his neck to keep his eye on the ball, that way he can judge the flight of the ball and keep Salah in check too. It obviously happens quickly and it's not the worst mistake in the world, but he could have stopped it.

Yes this is what I believe as well. I however think there is a risk that if Lindelof had covered the gap between him and Shaw, then Firmino had hit the pass in the big gap between Lindelof and Maguire instead. Salah who was facing forward would have been first on this ball. This is obviously only speculation as not even Firmino himself would be able to know what he would have done

McT, Lindelof, and Shaw share the blame equally imo, but at the same time this is one of those goals that happen. It was very well played from Firmino and Salah, and as I wrote before, if we had scored this goal, let's say Bruno to Cavani, we would praise their geniuses and not point out poor defending. I am more disappointed and concerned with the second goal as we have conceded too many of that kind this season. Both the way we lost the ball and that we didn't defend better.

 

[Adam-Utd]

This is the opposite of what he 'should' do. Body position initially is great from all of them, Lindelof (and the whole back four) are in a very nice position - there is good spacing, they have control (visual) of any runners and Shaw has come narrow to make the pass behind Lindelof to Salah almost impossible. Issue is Lindelof drops off at an angle, this opens the space for the pass and Salah does the rest with a nice finish.

When you are that close to your own goal, if you drop in a straight line or (i.e not like Lindelof who steps infield slightly) that pass is not going to be attempted or is going to be intercepted 9 times out of 10. Just watch Salah, when he sees Lindelof step infield, he alters his run ever so slightly (3 secs in on the vid) to exaggerate the corridor of space, that part is just class movement but Lindelof makes it an easy pass. PL football is a game of fine margins and when the ball actually passes Lindelof it's what half a metre or less from him and Shaw. You can see how off balance Lindelof is when he tries to correct himself but it's too late.

Sorry I don't see how you can say that to be honest.

Part of good defending is knowing where your opponent is and watching the ball at all times. Lindelof doesn't know where Salah as he tracks the ball instead.

If he turns himself to the opposite side (facing Salah) he'd be able to judge the flight of the ball better and intercept it. Instead of guesses it's going inside of him and gets it completely wrong.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Yes this is what I believe as well. I however think there is a risk that if Lindelof had covered the gap between him and Shaw, then Firmino had hit the pass in the big gap between Lindelof and Maguire instead. Salah who was facing forward would have been first on this ball. This is obviously only speculation as not even Firmino himself would be able to know this

McT, Lindelof, and Shaw share the blame equally imo, but at the same time this is one of those goals that happen. It was very well played from Firmino and Salah, and as I wrote before, if we had scored this goal, let's say Bruno to Cavani, we would praise their geniuses and not point out poor defending. I am more disappointed and concerned with the second goal as we have conceded too many of that kind this season. Both the way we lost the ball and that we didn't defend better.

Yeah i'd agree with that.

I give Shaw more of a pass as he's got TAA outside of him, if he gets too tight to Salah the ball is played out wide for an easy cross along the face of goal which is where Liverpool score lots of their goals.

Mctominay though needs to do a lot better in that situation.

 

[A-man]

Yeah i'd agree with that.

I give Shaw more of a pass as he's got TAA outside of him, if he gets too tight to Salah the ball is played out wide for an easy cross along the face of goal which is where Liverpool score lots of their goals.

Mctominay though needs to do a lot better in that situation.

I think our DM have been very good at pressing in similar situations before, but here Firmino got a free pass.
When it comes to Shaw and Lindelof, I wonder if this happened because they aren't used to play side by side and therefore don't act intuitively.

 

[ivaldo]

Liverpool, Leipzig, City - teams we've conceded 2-3 goals against in games this season?

If it was AWB completely at fault for the Sevilla goal then why did Bruno have a go at Lindelof? De Jong, sole CF, scored on the 6 yard line in the middle of the goal and Lindelof didn't even see him.


Him also losing Giroud for the first goal against Chelsea. Which to be completely fair there is also a mistake by Williams, but he's not a first team regular.


Him also failing to get back into position for Mahrez's goal.

I do agree that we can micro analyse defenders too much. And Bailly makes mistakes too. But it is as much as a myth that Lindelof is 'good positionally' as much as people saying he will get bullied every game. He's an average defender we should be upgrading - whether that's Bailly or not we can debate.

Yes, those teams that score lots of goals, the ones we kept a clean sheet against. Is that a serious question? I imagine the coaching staff who clearly think he must start in the big games know a little more about defending.


Observe Bailly clearly spot the danger and do nothing about it. Also notice how for RLF Bailly doesn't nothing to stop their CF form turning and playing a ball through.


Inexcusable defending from Bailly here.

And just think, if Bailly was able to keep fit, how many more examples there would be. Despite these clear errors, Bailly didn't get page upon page complaining about his performances. These mistakes were largely forgotten. He also doesn't contribute remotely as much offensively either. Lindelofs calmness on the ball and his vision are really underrated traits. Our biggest issue defensively at the moment is AWB. If he's poor positionally, then so is every other defender in the PL. We could go through every game and pick these type of faults in CBs. But hey, he's poor in the air, he's slow, he's weak, he has terrible position. Must just be lucky.

 

[Jericho]

He's a decent player, and usually in the right place at the right time. But the major problem I have with him is he almost always weaker than his opponent.

 

[A-man]

And just think, if Bailly was able to keep fit, how many more examples there would be. Despite these clear errors, Bailly didn't get page upon page complaining about his performances. These mistakes were largely forgotten. He also doesn't contribute remotely as much offensively either. Lindelofs calmness on the ball and his vision are really underrated traits. Our biggest issue defensively at the moment is AWB. If he's poor positionally, then so is every other defender in the PL. We could go through every game and pick these type of faults in CBs. But hey, he's poor in the air, he's slow, he's weak, he has terrible position. Must just be lucky.

Lindelof is too passive sometimes, he should learn how to switch on his aggressive side when needed. On the other hand, he is focused and concentrated, and we rarely see him switch off and just stand still watching the game without doing anything, which Bailly does sometimes.

Attacking wise, I would also argue that Lindelof offers just as much becasue of the reasons you mention. At least I haven't seen the Bailly effect on our attack that some people claim he has. Also Lindelof has one goal and one assist in his recent PL matches, which is contributing in my book.

I don't agree that AWB is a problem. He was positionally very poor a few matches ago, but he has looked sharp lately imo and kept his position better. He also got better help from the DM.

 

[Eugenius]

Yes, those teams that score lots of goals, the ones we kept a clean sheet against. Is that a serious question? I imagine the coaching staff who clearly think he must start in the big games know a little more about defending.


Observe Bailly clearly spot the danger and do nothing about it. Also notice how for RLF Bailly doesn't nothing to stop their CF form turning and playing a ball through.


Inexcusable defending from Bailly here.

And just think, if Bailly was able to keep fit, how many more examples there would be. Despite these clear errors, Bailly didn't get page upon page complaining about his performances. These mistakes were largely forgotten. He also doesn't contribute remotely as much offensively either. Lindelofs calmness on the ball and his vision are really underrated traits. Our biggest issue defensively at the moment is AWB. If he's poor positionally, then so is every other defender in the PL. We could go through every game and pick these type of faults in CBs. But hey, he's poor in the air, he's slow, he's weak, he has terrible position. Must just be lucky.

Using a clean sheet against Leipzig to suggest we have a good defence, when we conceded 3 goals when it actually mattered is obviously selective use of stats. When we won the CL in 2008 we conceded two goals in a game only once, and kept a clean sheet in 5 out of 7 of the knockout stages. That is the difference in standard and expectation.

Lindelof plays because Ole took one look at Jones, Bailly, Rojo and Axel and rightly sees they're all made of glass. And unfortunately Smalling had zero footballing ability. That does not make Lindelof a better player by default. He's evidently not terrible but he's also probably a 4th choice centre back at pretty much any other time in Utd's recent history or at the current top European teams.

By your logic of 'if he's playing then he must be good' that also means AWB can't be as bad as you've made out.

 

[eire-red]

Lindelof for the big games where we sit back and Baily for the rest of the games where we're more susceptible to counters?

The strengths and weaknesses of Bailly vs Lindelof were perfectly illustrated through our games vs Burnley and Liverpool.

Lindelof would have been bullied by Barnes or Wood, and Bailly would have struggled with the pace and passing of Liverpool. Thought Ole did brilliantly to play them both in the respective ties, its played to their strengths.

As you said, Bailly allows us to push higher against the smaller teams, whereas Lindelof has the composure under pressure in the big games. Great CB options along with Maguire if all 3 can stay fit.

 

[Meep]

The strengths and weaknesses of Bailly vs Lindelof were perfectly illustrated through our games vs Burnley and Liverpool.

Lindelof would have been bullied by Barnes or Wood, and Bailly would have struggled with the pace and passing of Liverpool. Thought Ole did brilliantly to play them both in the respective ties, its played to their strengths.

As you said, Bailly allows us to push higher against the smaller teams, whereas Lindelof has the composure under pressure in the big games. Great CB options along with Maguire if all 3 can stay fit.

Think you are right about OGS and his choices. Still would like to see Bailly get two matches now. Still think Lindelof got a role to play though.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Okay, let me ask you a couple questions? Who is quicker? a fast forward running forward or a average speed CB who is running back?

Salah is brilliant at these runs, he knows exactly how to make these runs between the CB and FB, he hasn't won the golden boot all these years by being lucky.

Strange defending, a player is running in behind while you are running backwards... ofcourse he will look clumsy when he turns.

Your points about the midfields part in the Salah goal are completely valid and most will agree they were also partly to blame. I for one do. But, I just can't see how you can defend Lindelofs part at all. He was just all over the place.

Also, from my personal POV, the using the word agenda demeans your argument. I like Victor and would like to keep him as a back up CB, or even to fight for a starting place. Saying you'd like an upgrade or pointing out that he was poor for that goal is nothing to do with an agenda.

 

[8thWonder]

Apologies if someones mentioned it already but do we know why he's ended up on that side of defence? Has anyone seen the build up prior to the goal?

Can't remember ever seeing us concede a goal with Lindelof on the left and Maguire on the right?

 

[romufc]

Your points about the midfields part in the Salah goal are completely valid and most will agree they were also partly to blame. I for one do. But, I just can't see how you can defend Lindelofs part at all. He was just all over the place.

Also, from my personal POV, the using the word agenda demeans your argument. I like Victor and would like to keep him as a back up CB, or even to fight for a starting place. Saying you'd like an upgrade or pointing out that he was poor for that goal is nothing to do with an agenda.

An agenda against our defence. I agree he could have done better but we are hell bent on faulting individuals for every goal conceded.

I guarantee you now, every goal conceded, you can look at it and say x,y,z player could have done better.

 

[ivaldo]

Using a clean sheet against Leipzig to suggest we have a good defence, when we conceded 3 goals when it actually mattered is obviously selective use of stats. When we won the CL in 2008 we conceded two goals in a game only once, and kept a clean sheet in 5 out of 7 of the knockout stages. That is the difference in standard and expectation.

Lindelof plays because Ole took one look at Jones, Bailly, Rojo and Axel and rightly sees they're all made of glass. And unfortunately Smalling had zero footballing ability. That does not make Lindelof a better player by default. He's evidently not terrible but he's also probably a 4th choice centre back at pretty much any other time in Utd's recent history or at the current top European teams.

By your logic of 'if he's playing then he must be good' that also means AWB can't be as bad as you've made out.

But using 2 goals conceded against the leagues top scorers, when just a few days prior Lindelof put in a imperious performance to keep a clean sheet against those same opponents, is?

That was 12 years ago. You might not have noticed, but football has moved on since then. We had Vidic and Ferdinand at CB, while Chelsea had Terry and Cavalho. You'll have to remind me what CB in world football compares to any of them. It isn't an expectation, it's nostalgia.

Right. But you understand why I said it right? Bruno going over to argue with Lindelof about that goal makes him right, but Ole selecting Lindelof consistently is a whole different kettle of fish? You can't have it both ways.

Again, you need to adjust your expectations. It's more of a team game than ever. The best defense in the league has John bleedin' Stones at it's heart. Even John Stone probably accepts he's not a great defender. But City keep so many clean sheets because the system they play facilitates it. Now compare how we defend as a unit to City or Liverpool. I'm not saying their style of football is better, but it puts less pressure on the back four.

Judging any defender based on what you watched 7/8/9 years ago simply doesn't work. Because those type of defenders aren't being trained any more. I'm not trying to tell you Lindelof is the best defender in the world, but just take a moment and look at what's around in the PL and beyond. Trying to pick minute faults doesn't make it average. If it did, then every CB is average.

No, that'll be by your logic, as I just explained.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Sorry I don't see how you can say that to be honest.

Part of good defending is knowing where your opponent is and watching the ball at all times. Lindelof doesn't know where Salah as he tracks the ball instead.

If he turns himself to the opposite side (facing Salah) he'd be able to judge the flight of the ball better and intercept it. Instead of guesses it's going inside of him and gets it completely wrong.

Think of what you're saying and imagine Lindelof trying to do it, it's not only unnatural but think through how it would benefit/hinder the defender. Watch Maguire as an example in that clip, he adjust his body position correctly when the ball moves more centrally. You generally always want to be chest slightly towards the ball when you're in line in that scenario. Your solution would only make sense if you could guarantee the same ball would be played every time but that's not how football works.

Aside from the fact you'll feck your neck up in no time doing what you're saying, more importantly, any half decent attacker is taught to front up defenders - if Lindelof voluntarily turns his body as you suggest, Salah will simply run in front of him and there's literally nothing Lindelof can do but foul him. That pass, the ball between Maguire & Lindelof is not only a much easier pass for Liverpool to make but also would allow Salah to take the shot on his favoured left.

The scenario where he would switch body position is if the ball moves more to left side (left for United) of the pitch, say if the ball goes out to TAA who is making a run or when he's out of line, chasing back and trying to offer an attacker wide (jockeying). Neither fits this scenario.

 

[Eugenius]

Using a clean sheet against Leipzig to suggest we have a good defence, when we conceded 3 goals when it actually mattered is obviously selective use of stats. When we won the CL in 2008 we conceded two goals in a game only once, and kept a clean sheet in 5 out of 7 of the knockout stages. That is the difference in standard and expectation.

Lindelof plays because Ole took one look at Jones, Bailly, Rojo and Axel and rightly sees they're all made of glass. And unfortunately Smalling had zero footballing ability. That does not make Lindelof a better player by default. He's evidently not terrible but he's also probably a 4th choice centre back at pretty much any other time in Utd's recent history or at the current top European teams.

By your logic of 'if he's playing then he must be good' that also means AWB can't be as bad as you've made out.

But using 2 goals conceded against the leagues top scorers, when just a few days prior Lindelof put in a imperious performance to keep a clean sheet against those same opponents, is?

That was 12 years ago. You might not have noticed, but football has moved on since then. We had Vidic and Ferdinand at CB, while Chelsea had Terry and Cavalho. You'll have to remind me what CB in world football compares to any of them. It isn't an expectation, it's nostalgia.

Right. But you understand why I said it right? Bruno going over to argue with Lindelof about that goal makes him right, but Ole selecting Lindelof consistently is a whole different kettle of fish? You can't have it both ways.

Again, you need to adjust your expectations. It's more of a team game than ever. The best defense in the league has John bleedin' Stones at it's heart. Even John Stone probably accepts he's not a great defender. But City keep so many clean sheets because the system they play facilitates it. Now compare how we defend as a unit to City or Liverpool. I'm not saying their style of football is better, but it puts less pressure on the back four.

Judging any defender based on what you watched 7/8/9 years ago simply doesn't work. Because those type of defenders aren't being trained any more. I'm not trying to tell you Lindelof is the best defender in the world, but just take a moment and look at what's around in the PL and beyond. Trying to pick minute faults doesn't make it average. If it did, then every CB is average.

No, that'll be by your logic, as I just explained.

The difference between us and say Burnley (who also kept a clean sheet vs Liverpool) should be the ability to pull that off consistently and when it matters. Which we haven't yet demonstrated. The only defender I'd say who was imperious in that game was Shaw BTW. Lindelof was good, fair enough.

I didn't need even to invoke Bruno to prove my point re Sevilla. I don't want to labour the point or go back into microanalysis but look where de Jong scores from - the CB should be doing something.

We can disagree on his relative ability to other CBs in the league, but I think regardless overall we will look better balanced with some pace at CB (even if said player isn't individually better than Lindelof).

 

[justsomebloke]

Using a clean sheet against Leipzig to suggest we have a good defence, when we conceded 3 goals when it actually mattered is obviously selective use of stats. When we won the CL in 2008 we conceded two goals in a game only once, and kept a clean sheet in 5 out of 7 of the knockout stages. That is the difference in standard and expectation.

Lindelof plays because Ole took one look at Jones, Bailly, Rojo and Axel and rightly sees they're all made of glass. And unfortunately Smalling had zero footballing ability. That does not make Lindelof a better player by default. He's evidently not terrible but he's also probably a 4th choice centre back at pretty much any other time in Utd's recent history or at the current top European teams.

By your logic of 'if he's playing then he must be good' that also means AWB can't be as bad as you've made out.

Just a niggle. It actually makes no sense to claim the second RBL game was "the one that really mattered". You go through or not based on total points. The reason the second RBL game was decisive was because we won the first, which mattered exactly as much as the second.

That being said, I would ascribe our defensive performance in the first Leipzig game less to the backline than to the fact we were playing a smothering defensive game, using a midfield diamond against team dependent on dominating the central midfield. Also, there was some downside to that (ie, our almost complete lack of offensive pressure until they disintegrated and our subs gave them counterattack hell).

 

[Eugenius]

Just a niggle. It actually makes no sense to claim the second RBL game was "the one that really mattered". You go through or not based on total points. The reason the second RBL game was decisive was because we won the first, which mattered exactly as much as the second.

That being said, I would ascribe our defensive performance in the first Leipzig game less to the backline than to the fact we were playing a smothering defensive game, using a midfield diamond against team dependent on dominating the central midfield. Also, there was some downside to that (ie, our almost complete lack of offensive pressure until they disintegrated and our subs gave them counterattack hell).

You're right to be fair. But that Leipzig game felt in isolation like a cup final (or semi final etc). I don't feel like we have the grit or streetwise to manage these games.

 

[ivaldo]

The difference between us and say Burnley (who also kept a clean sheet vs Liverpool) should be the ability to pull that off consistently and when it matters. Which we haven't yet demonstrated. The only defender I'd say who was imperious in that game was Shaw BTW. Lindelof was good, fair enough.

I didn't need even to invoke Bruno to prove my point re Sevilla. I don't want to labour the point or go back into microanalysis but look where de Jong scores from - the CB should be doing something.

We can disagree on his relative ability to other CBs in the league, but I think regardless overall we will look better balanced with some pace at CB (even if said player isn't individually better than Lindelof).

When it matters. You mean like against Liverpool in the league...

As you're still blaming Lindelof for it, lets cover old ground. Look at the flight of the ball, and AWB, who was touch tight before the cross came in. Maguire had moved beyond the front post, so Lindelof covered the near post area. I would have thought De Jong's first goal in the final would be explanation enough as to why he had to cover that area. De Jong made a run to the front post across the CB to head in from a near identical crossing position. If the striker wasn't already being marked, then I'd be inclined to agree, bit AWB was entirely free to pick him up and should have done the basics and tracked his man. Thinking Lindelof should vacate that space to mark a striker who was already being marked (so AWB could do, what?) is completely nonsensical.

Yes. We could do with some more pace, but Fulhams goal succinctly demonstrated how it isn't the be all and end all, and why Bailly being rapid doesn't replace the obvious intelligence we lose from dropping Lindelof. Yet, despite such a horrendous piece of defending, the calls for him to start over Lindelof continued relatively unperturbed.

 

[A-man]

The strengths and weaknesses of Bailly vs Lindelof were perfectly illustrated through our games vs Burnley and Liverpool.

Lindelof would have been bullied by Barnes or Wood, and Bailly would have struggled with the pace and passing of Liverpool. Thought Ole did brilliantly to play them both in the respective ties, its played to their strengths..

There is nothing that says that Lindelof would be bullied by Barnes or Wood. People said that before we played them last season as well and they were all wrong. Lindelof beat both Barnes and Wood in a physical game. If any, they were bullied by Lindelof who played very well in that game and we got a clean sheet. Nobody thought Bailly was bullied when he was thrown to the ground by Traore, but I bet both testicles if that was Lindelof, at least 20 posters would said he was bullied.

 

[A-man]

Apologies if someones mentioned it already but do we know why he's ended up on that side of defence? Has anyone seen the build up prior to the goal?

Can't remember ever seeing us concede a goal with Lindelof on the left and Maguire on the right?

We had a corner and when Maguire ran back, he ran straight to the RCB position where Lindelof already was positioned. Then Lindelof had to run over to Maguire’s area.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Love how people are using Bailly making mistakes to defend Lindelof here.

The whole point of analysing Lindelof's game is that he is not good enough, not that Bailly should play instead of him because whilst some may wish that be the case, it is a completely separate argument.

You don't defend Lingard as a decent attacking midfielder by saying, Peirera is worse and that he deserves more criticism

Are we trying to make a Lindelof a scapegoat and over anaylse his game? No, we are simply saying he's an extremely average player, who does little defensive engaging when it actually matters.

Both Liverpool goals are typical of this 'Lindelof doesn't too much wrong tbh' praise/absolvement of responsibility when the actual point is not that he doesn't do wrong, it's the fact he's doesn't do much right ffs.

Being neither here or there is basically a passenger.

Just gonna leave this here:

2:28 onwards.


0:05 onwards.

Both occasions of elite Maldini level jockeying, 'he who makes a tackle has already made a mistake with poor positioning' Myth TM, completely nullifying the opposition.

No tackle made = 0 dribbled past and 0 unsuccessful tackle.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I dislike and find it unpleasant when people try to police my opinions. I 100% admit I am not objective and I have no intention to treat all players and teams out there objectively nor equally. I work professionally with experiments and statistics and fully understand the concept of objectivity, but football is not work. It is a passion for me and most others, and you can never treat a passion objectively. We can try to be reasonable, that's all. I like the way Lindelof an Maguire play as partners, and of course that will make me accept some mistakes I wouldn't accept with other players. People who want objective comments should not read posts at supporter forum, and maybe not involve themselves with football.

Everything is subjective but when you're the highest volume poster in Lindelof's thread and then also in Bailly's thread (both by a massive margin compared to the next poster), who is very clearly his direct competition, I think it's very reasonable that you will get called out on your bias as you have admitted.

Don't pass off your subjective opinions about players, who are directly linked to the success of Utd as a passion when your bias is clouding your judgement. You can't say 'I'm bias' and because football is not a science, 'therefore all is fair game and I will continue to support my boy' without response.

The thing that astounds me most is that we are not talking about a player with Pogba level of ability/charisma/divisive opinion/call it what you want. On Pogba's thread, i largely ignore most of the extreme posts because it's just drivel. As always the truth is somewhere in the middle. However, it's fanatical level of dedication to support someone like Lindelof and then clinically giving him benefit of the doubt in almost every situation and not afford that to other players.

The truth in the middle for Lindelof is that he's an extremely average defender, whose best ability is staying fit. Yet he has his defenders like he's some elite or underrated/underappreciated gem.

Come on man, you've got to realise it's a bit ridiculous how you and others are back tracking (pun intended) doing mental gymnastics to play off Liverpool's first goal as some systematic team failure and excellent opposition play (there is some truth to this of course) and completely absolve Lindelof of the ridiculous lack of anything he did. The guy literally turned on himself twice and fumbled backwards

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Lindelof made a mistake. Doesn’t make him an average defender. Move on we won! Feck me.

 

[Olecurls99]

The strengths and weaknesses of Bailly vs Lindelof were perfectly illustrated through our games vs Burnley and Liverpool.

Lindelof would have been bullied by Barnes or Wood, and Bailly would have struggled with the pace and passing of Liverpool. Thought Ole did brilliantly to play them both in the respective ties, its played to their strengths.

As you said, Bailly allows us to push higher against the smaller teams, whereas Lindelof has the composure under pressure in the big games. Great CB options along with Maguire if all 3 can stay fit.

Spot on. Both of them are really valuable to us. Both of them have played very well this season. You would think we were in the relegation zone the way some people carry on in here.
It begs the question. If our attack hasn't clicked and our defenders are bang average, how the hell are we top of the league?

 

[A-man]

Everything is subjective but when you're the highest volume poster in Lindelof's thread and then also in Bailly's thread (both by a massive margin compared to the next poster), who is very clearly his direct competition, I think it's very reasonable that you will get called out on your bias as you have admitted.

Don't pass off your subjective opinions about players, who are directly linked to the success of Utd as a passion when your bias is clouding your judgement. You can't say 'I'm bias' and because football is not a science, 'therefore all is fair game and I will continue to support my boy' without response.

The thing that astounds me most is that we are not talking about a player with Pogba level of ability/charisma/divisive opinion/call it what you want. On Pogba's thread, i largely ignore most of the extreme posts because it's just drivel. As always the truth is somewhere in the middle. However, it's fanatical level of dedication to support someone like Lindelof and then clinically giving him benefit of the doubt in almost every situation and not afford that to other players.

The truth in the middle for Lindelof is that he's an extremely average defender, whose best ability is staying fit. Yet he has his defenders like he's some elite or underrated/underappreciated gem.

Come on man, you've got to realise it's a bit ridiculous how you and others are back tracking (pun intended) doing mental gymnastics to play off Liverpool's first goal as some systematic team failure and excellent opposition play (there is some truth to this of course) and completely absolve Lindelof of the ridiculous lack of anything he did. The guy literally turned on himself twice and fumbled backwards

Some weeks ago, everybody wanted Bailly sold because they thought he was worthless. A handful of good matches later he is described as United best defender and world class. What I think about Bailly wasn’t controversial a few weeks ago and a few matches doesn’t change my overall thoughts about him. Outside this forum it is still not controversial but pretty mainstream thoughts.

We can look at both players last 5 PL matches. Here are the average ratings from 5 newspapers randomly picked.

Bailly
Leicester 5.8
Wolves 6.3
Aston Villa 7.5
Burnley 7.3
Fulham 6.3


Lindelof:
West Ham 5.7
City 6.8
Sheffield United 7.5
Leeds 7.3
Liverpool 7.2

So Bailly is back from injury and has had 2 good and 3 ok matches according to his average ratings. It’s good but it’s not enough for me to say he is superior any of our starting xi CBs.

(Interestingly, Manchester Evening news always give Lindelof 1 lower than everybody else and Bailly 1 higher than everybody else. There you have a bias you can follow up.)


We can go back to the goal you brought up. As I wrote, I think Lindelof, Shaw and McT share equal guilt for this, but still it was a pretty good goal from Liverpool. That is also what you can read in most papers, what pundits said etc. It’s mainly you and a handful of other who put all blame on him.

Since you are so concerned and tbj a little obsessed with what I write, maybe look at your own posts. I have clearly said I’m not objective and has intention to be. You don’t have that self-insight at all. Go through your own posts. More or less every post you have in the Bailly thread is something condescending about Lindelof. Even though Lindelof clearly has performed well (according to the ratings at least) you continue like this. Maybe start looking at yourself before complaint about others brining non-objective?

 

[Eugenius]

When it matters. You mean like against Liverpool in the league...

As you're still blaming Lindelof for it, lets cover old ground. Look at the flight of the ball, and AWB, who was touch tight before the cross came in. Maguire had moved beyond the front post, so Lindelof covered the near post area. I would have thought De Jong's first goal in the final would be explanation enough as to why he had to cover that area. De Jong made a run to the front post across the CB to head in from a near identical crossing position. If the striker wasn't already being marked, then I'd be inclined to agree, bit AWB was entirely free to pick him up and should have done the basics and tracked his man. Thinking Lindelof should vacate that space to mark a striker who was already being marked (so AWB could do, what?) is completely nonsensical.

Yes. We could do with some more pace, but Fulhams goal succinctly demonstrated how it isn't the be all and end all, and why Bailly being rapid doesn't replace the obvious intelligence we lose from dropping Lindelof. Yet, despite such a horrendous piece of defending, the calls for him to start over Lindelof continued relatively unperturbed.

I'm sorry, but there is one Sevilla player in the box, which is their CF. There's literally no point in marking space in that scenario.

Lindelof looks over at AWB, who is crap in the air, and sees him picking up De Jong doesn't seem to spot any issue with that. He should be opening his body shape so he can see De Jong (who is literally the only person in the box) and get across to him, not just passing him off completely to AWB. AWB leaves him (wrongly) but De Jong ends up scoring in what is clearly the CB's zone (6 yards out, bang central).

You can't claim he's trying to anticipate a run from De Jong when he's not even looking at him or anywhere tight to him.

 

[ivaldo]

I'm sorry, but there is one Sevilla player in the box, which is their CF. There's literally no point in marking space in that scenario.

Lindelof looks over at AWB, who is crap in the air, and sees him picking up De Jong doesn't seem to spot any issue with that. He should be opening his body shape so he can see De Jong (who is literally the only person in the box) and get across to him, not just passing him off completely to AWB. AWB leaves him (wrongly) but De Jong ends up scoring in what is clearly the CB's zone (6 yards out, bang central).

You can't claim he's trying to anticipate a run from De Jong when he's not even looking at him or anywhere tight to him.

You can't be serious? I suggest you actually watch the goal in the final and tell me again why covering the near post space isn't necessary. It's a cross from a near identical place, by the same team scored by the same player.

De Jong doesn't even header it. AWB could have Ronaldo's leap and it wouldn't matter. AWB is free so he picks up the CF and fails to track his runner. It's the type of basic defending you're taught from a very young age. If a player gets pulled out of position, as Maguire has, and you have a free player, you shift across to cover. If players exclusively stuck to their man and their space then we'd see 10 goals a game. You can't possibly think defending is that basic.

 

[simmee]

Some weeks ago, everybody wanted Bailly sold because they thought he was worthless. A handful of good matches later he is described as United best defender and world class. What I think about Bailly wasn’t controversial a few weeks ago and a few matches doesn’t change my overall thoughts about him. Outside this forum it is still not controversial but pretty mainstream thoughts.

We can look at both players last 5 PL matches. Here are the average ratings from 5 newspapers randomly picked.

Bailly
Leicester 5.8
Wolves 6.3
Aston Villa 7.5
Burnley 7.3
Fulham 6.3


Lindelof:
West Ham 5.7
City 6.8
Sheffield United 7.5
Leeds 7.3
Liverpool 7.2

So Bailly is back from injury and has had 2 good and 3 ok matches according to his average ratings. It’s good but it’s not enough for me to say he is superior any of our starting xi CBs.

(Interestingly, Manchester Evening news always give Lindelof 1 lower than everybody else and Bailly 1 higher than everybody else. There you have a bias you can follow up.)


We can go back to the goal you brought up. As I wrote, I think Lindelof, Shaw and McT share equal guilt for this, but still it was a pretty good goal from Liverpool. That is also what you can read in most papers, what pundits said etc. It’s mainly you and a handful of other who put all blame on him.

Since you are so concerned and tbj a little obsessed with what I write, maybe look at your own posts. I have clearly said I’m not objective and has intention to be. You don’t have that self-insight at all. Go through your own posts. More or less every post you have in the Bailly thread is something condescending about Lindelof. Even though Lindelof clearly has performed well (according to the ratings at least) you continue like this. Maybe start looking at yourself before complaint about others brining non-objective?

You just have to read this part "The truth in the middle for Lindelof is that he's an extremely average defender, whose best ability is staying fit" to realize he doesn't know what he's talking about. Don't waste your time on those kind of posters.

The goal was obviously a mistake by Lindelof and I'm sure he would admit it himself since one of his strengths is to always cover the right angle. He had Salah covered and then went inside to limit the space between him and Maguire where the pass was not really on anyway. Wouldn't say Shaw had any time to react to that given how quickly the pass was played after Lindelof's movement. Think it would be harsh to argue that Shaw should track Salah in that situation. Anyway, we won and move on in the cup and keep fighting for the league title with our shit defenders

 

[Eugenius]

You can't be serious? I suggest you actually watch the goal in the final and tell me again why covering the near post space isn't necessary. It's a cross from a near identical place, by the same team scored by the same player.

De Jong doesn't even header it. AWB could have Ronaldo's leap and it wouldn't matter. AWB is free so he picks up the CF and fails to track his runner. It's the type of basic defending you're taught from a very young age. If a player gets pulled out of position, as Maguire has, and you have a free player, you shift across to cover. If players exclusively stuck to their man and their space then we'd see 10 goals a game. You can't possibly think defending is that basic.

The basics of defending are to actually know where the opposition striker is. His body shape is completely wrong, he can't see De Jong. Look where the cross is coming in from, look at the lack of Sevilla players in the box (in contrast there are 3 Sevilla forwards in the box in the goal you talk about).

Repeating you can't be serious doesn't make my point any less valid. Curious if you think Bruno was telling him well done on defending the near post.

 

[ivaldo]

The basics of defending are to actually know where the opposition striker is. His body shape is completely wrong, he can't see De Jong. Look where the cross is coming in from, look at the lack of Sevilla players in the box (in contrast there are 3 Sevilla forwards in the box in the goal you talk about).

Repeating you can't be serious doesn't make my point any less valid. Curious if you think Bruno was telling him well done on defending the near post.

So now his body shape is the main concern and not that he hasn't picked up the striker? I suppose if you throw enough of it, eventually something will be stick. Perhaps we can criticize his breathing technique next.

I've said it once, but I've been repeating it? What does invalidate it is giving you a direct example of a goal being scored by the same player from the same crossing position scoring in the area you claim is it pointless to defend. What has been repeated, however, is your refusal to even acknowledge the similarities between the two goals.

Noo, you'd prefer to leave that area entirely free, so Lindelof can pick up the man AWB is already marking so AWB can get his lunch break. Im curious if you think if AWB improved his heading ability he would have stopped that low volley.

I think we're done here. We're just going in circles.