[A-man]

He takes care of the ball in the air, makes lots of interceptions, more duels. He's the one that confronts danger while Lindelof moves towards his own goal. You can both see it when you watch very clearly and by reviewing the stats.

Yes as I mentioned he makes 0.8 more interceptions per game and some more defensive aerials. Shaw makes least in the defence if that’s how we count.

 

[Ekeke]

Yes as I mentioned he makes 0.8 more interceptions per game and some more defensive aerials. Shaw makes least in the defence if that’s how we count.

Pretty much double

This season yeah, whilst doing more going forward than in the past. But if we look at previous seasons Shaw has shown he can do plenty of defending when needed. Lindelof hasnt done that. You'd also expect a lot more defending from a CB than someone going on wing overlaps

 

[Vidyoyo]

You know sometimes I watch him on the pitch, gliding around, making attackers fall over sideways, moping up Maguire's mess and think this is probably what the Hellenstic poets were really trying to describe when they talked Heracles overcoming the twelve trials.

An absolute god amongst defenders.

 

[ivaldo]

Maguire far more active and doing most of the defending is not accurate. In what sense? Are you talking about the stats or observations? If you go only by stats, they have pretty similar defensive stats this season, except Maguire has more more interceptions (0.8 more per game). He also challenges and wins more defensive aerials, but the difference is not as big as I one might think. Lindelof on the other hand is better at closing down open space.
I would also say he is more protecting Maguire, than the other way around, as its Maguire’s role to push and Lindelof to fall down and protect the space behind the other defenders.

Why do you still entertain him?

 

[A-man]

Pretty much double

This season yeah, whilst doing more going forward than in the past. But if we look at previous seasons Shaw has shown he can do plenty of defending when needed. Lindelof hasnt done that. You'd also expect a lot more defending from a CB than someone going on wing overlaps

According to stats he has 0.8 more interceptions per game, which is almost one every game.
Then they have the same amount of clearances, blocks, tackles... don’t see where you got the idea that he doesn’t do any defending. Also, defending is more complex than just looking at the defensive stats, that’s why I brought up Shaw as example. He doesn’t only the least defending in United by you definition, but he also do very little defending in comparison with other fullbacks in the PL.
43 fullbacks have played more than 10 PL matches, this is where Shaw ranks in comparison with those 43:
Clearances 34
Aerials 20
Interceptions 40
Tackles 34
Blocks 20

 

[Halftrack]

If its team instructions Bailly, Jones, Rojo, Tuanzabe etc would all do it when they play next to Maguire. They dont.

He just doesnt like to confront the ball, so its good for him that we have the best RB at it, a good CB at it in Maguire - not the best, but better than Lindelof at least and Shaw who is very solid defensively, and with Henderson at least we have a keeper who also wants to come out and deal with the ball

So Lindelof is in the perfect situation for himself which is someone else will deal with it. In that scenario a lot of players would do better because theres not many actions where you can mess up. The more responsibility you take on yourself to deal with situations the more likely that at some point you're going to get it wrong. And sometimes AWB, or Maguire or someone else does get it wrong. But when you arent getting yourself in the action and you still get it wrong a couple of times its not very impressive. A lot of players should be able to do that

That sure is an impressive list of players that have barely played with Maguire. The Tuanzebe/Maguire pairing has been awful, likewise the Jones/Maguire pairing. Rojo I think started once next to Maguire in a CB pairing? Bailly is clearly a completely different defender to Lindelöf, so will obviously have different instructions.

Must be really chill for Lindelöf to be able to rely on AWB, a player he often has to instruct on where to go and what to do. Though to be fair to AWB, he's been improving in that area. Pretty soon Lindelöf can pitch a tent in the box, and only come out whenever Harry moves to challenge for something.

 

[Ekeke]

According to stats he has 0.8 more interceptions per game, which is almost one every game.
Then they have the same amount of clearances, blocks, tackles... don’t see where you got the idea that he doesn’t do any defending. Also, defending is more complex than just looking at the defensive stats, that’s why I brought up Shaw as example. He doesn’t only the least defending in United by you definition, but he also do very little defending in comparison with other fullbacks in the PL.
43 fullbacks have played more than 10 PL matches, this is where Shaw ranks in comparison with those 43:
Clearances 34
Aerials 20
Interceptions 40
Tackles 34
Blocks 20

Yeah Shaw is usally on our left wing in an attack in most games, when we arent fully sitting back. I dont think its reasonable to expect him to also be back at the back winning the ball as often as AWB. He's balanced and we've seen the benefit of his attacking this season.

Yet again the point is hes shown he can do the defending. He isnt sitting back and doing the defending, he's been one of our main attacking threats instead. But if we needed him to sit back and defend he can do that, you just have to look at previous seasons

Lindelof has been the same each season. Okay. On the low side of defensive actions with the players around him being the ones to confront danger far more often

 

[Juanito]

But that is to take a player relying on fullbacks, a goalkeeper and his midfield in isolation

He has great help from the fullbacks and Maguire is far more active doing most of the defending, and Henderson has a good presence and came for crosses which is something we dont usually have from our keeper

Who else has that help? Not many.

I would say no team in the premier league has that amount of help as 2 great fullbacks, a CB who will take charge and deal with most things so he doesnt have to and for this specific match a goalkeeper who you can be confident in dealing with crosses and physicality.

So when you are protected that much and then there are 2 mistakes that could have ended up in the back of the net if the player was sharp then its not that impressive. Put a lot of other players in that same position and they'd have done the same or better.

Now on the ball he's done better this season than in the past. He's added some good long passes for the attackers to his game and continued to play a few good passes up into midfield. And he's happy to run the ball into space past some attackers. In that area I think he's in the top 5-10 CBs in the league same with Maguire. But I would also say that at times Bailly has looked just as good at it.

I get your point and what I can give you is that I don't see Lindelof playing in a title-winning 4-backline.

However, football is a team activity. Look at Chelsea with Christensen, Rudiger and Azpilicueta all awful as centre backs in a 4 setup but bloody brilliant in a 3-4-3 / 3-5-2 , with Christensen even being instrumental winning the title with Conte.
If you don't have help from the players around you most players look shit. Lindelof excels in avoiding danger both in positioning and in his passing. Put him in Chelsea with 3-4-3 and he would not be worse than any of the other 3.

 

[Ekeke]

I get your point and what I can give you is that I don't see Lindelof playing in a title-winning 4-backline.

However, football is a team activity. Look at Chelsea with Christensen, Rudiger and Azpilicueta all awful as centre backs in a 4 setup but bloody brilliant in a 3-4-3 / 3-5-2 , with Christensen even being instrumental winning the title with Conte.
If you don't have help from the players around you most players look shit. Lindelof excels in avoiding danger both in positioning and in his passing. Put him in Chelsea with 3-4-3 and he would not be worse than any of the other 3.

I disagree. I think Rudiger is good with his pace and power in a back 3, often when we've come up against him he's done well when taken on. Christensen I thought was going to be far better when I saw him against us for Chelsea reserves. Never been impressed with him in the first team. And Azpilicueta is 31 and versatile. I dont know about right now but I rated his defending in the past at rightback.

I think Lindelof is as good as any of them on the ball. And as good as Maguire has been on the ball this season. But in straight defending he isnt fast, isnt strong, isnt aggressive and mostly relies on acting early and dropping off to track runs which is the one thing he deals with quite well. But that also means he sometimes plays people onside by dropping deep.

 

[Alfie092]

He is more suited to player against the top teams, aside from Leicester than Bailly IMO.

Other than that, against teams who look to hit us on the counter, Bailly would be more suited.

Still need an upgrade in CB though...

 

[Raven]

If its team instructions Bailly, Jones, Rojo, Tuanzabe etc would all do it when they play next to Maguire. They dont.

He just doesnt like to confront the ball, so its good for him that we have the best RB at it, a good CB at it in Maguire - not the best, but better than Lindelof at least and Shaw who is very solid defensively, and with Henderson at least we have a keeper who also wants to come out and deal with the ball

So Lindelof is in the perfect situation for himself which is someone else will deal with it. In that scenario a lot of players would do better because theres not many actions where you can mess up. The more responsibility you take on yourself to deal with situations the more likely that at some point you're going to get it wrong. And sometimes AWB, or Maguire or someone else does get it wrong. But when you arent getting yourself in the action and you still get it wrong a couple of times its not very impressive. A lot of players should be able to do that

I'm not sure Lindelof is good enough for us either but this is a total car crash of a post. Do you realise that different players have different roles and responsibilities, which varies depending on opposition? Such a dumb line of thinking. As if Ole's been asking him to play like Harry all season, yet he just plays this way for the shits and giggles.

 

[A-man]

He is more suited to player against the top teams, aside from Leicester than Bailly IMO.

Other than that, against teams who look to hit us on the counter, Bailly would be more suited.

Still need an upgrade in CB though...

I still don't understand where this "not suited against teams who look to hit us on the counter" comes from.
The way you and some others talk about it, one could easily believe we have conceded 10 goals on counters this season. But we haven't, we have conceded least counter goals in the PL (zero according to the stats).

 

[Ekeke]

I'm not sure Lindelof is good enough for us either but this is a total car crash of a post. Do you realise that different players have different roles and responsibilities, which varies depending on opposition? Such a dumb line of thinking. As if Ole's been asking him to play like Harry all season, yet he just plays this way for the shits and giggles.

No, if our tactic is to have Lindelof do what he does then the players who replace him in the lineup will do the same thing. Because thats our tactics. Thats what makes them our tactics, rather than what a single player wants to do

 

[Raven]

No, if our tactic is to have Lindelof do what he does then the players who replace him in the lineup will do the same thing. Because thats our tactics. Thats what makes them our tactics, rather than what a single player wants to do

Ole says quite regularly that every team requires a different approach. Literally said it in his last press conference.

 

[A-man]

 

[Counterfactual]

Not sure if already posted, but I found this stat interesting...

"Manchester United are unbeaten in their past 16 Premier League games when Lindelof has started." (BBC website)

(Perhaps it just shows he got lucky and missed the Sheffield United game)

 

[Ekeke]

Ole says quite regularly that every team requires a different approach. Literally said it in his last press conference.

Not from how your CBs play or guess what, Lindelof would be playing differently each game. He doesnt. Because he's confident in a certain way of playing so thats what he wants to do which is be deeper, act early and track a runner back towards goal. Thats how he likes to defend.

Bailly likes to come to the ball and try to win it earlier so he's going to do that

 

[Vidyoyo]

In Garth Crooks team of the week: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56324917

Victor Lindelof's ability to recover situations against City was impressive and it is becoming a feature of his game. Team-mate Harry Maguire might be more imposing but it's Lindelof who provides that touch of class.

Also includes this completely unsurprising stat:

Manchester United are unbeaten in their past 16 Premier League games when Lindelof has started.

Edit - Already posted but let's keep it for the unenlightened.

 

[GioF]

With all respect, this sounds like one of those lazy statements coming from some theoretical thinkings around stereotypes. In what game with counters did he look disastrous? We have conceded very few goals on counters, less than most teams in the PL, maybe even least of all.

I get my assessment from playing and watching football all my life. I personally don’t rate Lindelof. I find him weak, below average athlete, okay on the ball, reads the game well, doesn’t handle stronger/faster opponents and shirks responsibility.That’s just my opinion. I’m not on social media so I don’t just use others interpretations I just go off what I see.

 

[Teffe]

No, if our tactic is to have Lindelof do what he does then the players who replace him in the lineup will do the same thing. Because thats our tactics. Thats what makes them our tactics, rather than what a single player wants to do

Of course Ole changes part of the tactics depending on what players he has available. Do you seriously believe what you just wrote? That a manager doesn't change tactics depending on what players he put out on the pitch?

 

[Adam-Utd]

In Garth Crooks team of the week: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56324917

Victor Lindelof's ability to recover situations against City was impressive and it is becoming a feature of his game. Team-mate Harry Maguire might be more imposing but it's Lindelof who provides that touch of class.

Also includes this completely unsurprising stat:

Manchester United are unbeaten in their past 16 Premier League games when Lindelof has started.

Edit - Already posted but let's keep it for the unenlightened.

I'd say that's more of a negative to be honest.

 

[DWelbz19]

You know sometimes I watch him on the pitch, gliding around, making attackers fall over sideways, moping up Maguire's mess and think this is probably what the Hellenstic poets were really trying to describe when they talked Heracles overcoming the twelve trials.

An absolute god amongst defenders.

 

[Raven]

Not from how your CBs play or guess what, Lindelof would be playing differently each game. He doesnt. Because he's confident in a certain way of playing so thats what he wants to do which is be deeper, act early and track a runner back towards goal. Thats how he likes to defend.

Bailly likes to come to the ball and try to win it earlier so he's going to do that

But that's demonstrably false given that when he and Bailly started together recently Lindelof played a more aggressive role, challenging for all the aerials, carrying the ball forward and taking responsibility for pushing up and challenging higher up the pitch. Bailly then covered for the counter and played the role we've become more accustomed to from Lindelof. I think someone else in here mentioned how he plays differently for Sweden as well.

I'm not sure why you're so averse to the notion that players play different roles against different opposition, it's happened forever.

 

[Ekeke]

But that's demonstrably false given that when he and Bailly started together recently Lindelof played a more aggressive role, challenging for all the aerials, carrying the ball forward and taking responsibility for pushing up and challenging higher up the pitch. Bailly then covered for the counter and played the role we've become more accustomed to from Lindelof. I think someone else in here mentioned how he plays differently for Sweden as well.

I'm not sure why you're so averse to the notion that players play different roles against different opposition, it's happened forever.

Running the ball forward isnt being an aggressive defender.

Confronting players with the ball, moving towards it and trying to win the ball is being aggressive.

Bailly had 0 tackles, 2 interceptions, 3 clearances and 0 blocked shots.

Lindelof had 0 tackles, 0 interceptions, 3 clearances and 1 blocked shot.

So even there Bailly was true to form and the more aggressive defender, like always

 

[Ekeke]

Of course Ole changes part of the tactics depending on what players he has available. Do you seriously believe what you just wrote? That a manager doesn't change tactics depending on what players he put out on the pitch?

They arent going to change the entire tactics of the defence for each player that comes in. They are going to be trained all to defend the same way as a unit. Thats the point of training. You train to play the system, but players have strengths weaknesses and tendancies. Bailly's tendancy is to be aggressive, Lindelof's is to back away and not be aggressive. So when Bailly plays instead of Lindelof next to Maguire, he's going to win the ball more than Lindelof does. Because thats what he wants to do. Thats what he's confident in. And Lindelof wants to back off and track the running player instead and not confront players so often, putting himself in a position where he might get beaten.

 

[A-man]

Running the ball forward isnt being an aggressive defender.

Confronting players with the ball, moving towards it and trying to win the ball is being aggressive.

Bailly had 0 tackles, 2 interceptions, 3 clearances and 0 blocked shots.

Lindelof had 0 tackles, 0 interceptions, 3 clearances and 1 blocked shot.

So even there Bailly was true to form and the more aggressive defender, like always

I assume you didn’t watch the game?
As @Raven wrote, Lindelof acted differently when playing with Bailly. He was more aggressive both in the air and on the ground. He won aerials that he would normally leave to Maguire. He went in to 8 duels which was much more than Bailly. He clearly played a different role than he normally does.

 

[Counterfactual]

I'd say that's more of a negative to be honest.

When I quoted it, I left that bit out!

 

[Foxbatt]

Could all of you be ignoring one important factor? Who is behind them? We shall see how it goes in the next few games. Lindelof is weaker in the air than Maguire but neither is Bailly stronger. Lindelof does organise the defense and with AWB getting better the defense is going to get better.

 

[A-man]

I get my assessment from playing and watching football all my life. I personally don’t rate Lindelof. I find him weak, below average athlete, okay on the ball, reads the game well, doesn’t handle stronger/faster opponents and shirks responsibility.That’s just my opinion. I’m not on social media so I don’t just use others interpretations I just go off what I see.

Ok, fair enough, but I just wonder how counters are problematic when we play Lindelof? It’s very rare that we concede goals on counters.

 

[golden_blunder]

All i’m going to say is that it’s depressing when i think of the centre backs we’ve had in my timeline - McGrath, Moran, Bruce, Pallister, stam, Ferdinand, Vidic to maguire, lindelof, Bailly and Tuanzebe. Absolutely shocking. None of the current lot are fit to lace their boots. I’d even chuck Wes Brown into the list above.
We shouldn’t accept averageness

 

[Ekeke]

I assume you didn’t watch the game?
As @Raven wrote, Lindelof acted differently when playing with Bailly. He was more aggressive both in the air and on the ground. He won aerials that he would normally leave to Maguire. He went in to 8 duels which was much more than Bailly. He clearly played a different role than he normally does.

Lindelof usually wins the ball in the air more than Bailly. Why would it be any different when playing next to him?

 

[A-man]

Lindelof usually wins the ball in the air more than Bailly. Why would it be any different when playing next to him?

Yes he was much more aggressive in the air and also on the ground, as the stats show, which everybody who saw the match already knew.

You honestly believe that the players at this level don’t get instructions how to play? That Lindelof just run around randomly as he pleases? That’s not how it work. They have different roles and as proven Lindelof’s role changed when he played with Bailly.

 

[Ekeke]

Yes he was much more aggressive in the air and also on the ground, as the stats show, which everybody who saw the match already knew.

You honestly believe that the players at this level don’t get instructions how to play? That Lindelof just run around randomly as he pleases? That’s not how it work. They have different roles and as proven Lindelof’s role changed when he played with Bailly.

I believe its ridiculous to suggest that you instruct your 4 man defence to play completely differently based on whether your first choice CBs are playing or not

Bailly is trained to fit into our defence. Our defence isnt trained to fit in Bailly when hes in as backup for Lindelof, playing completely differently and different tactics and disrupting themselves

Lindelof has a way he wants to play and thinks he can do well at. He's going to play that way. Same as any other CB

 

[A-man]

I believe its ridiculous to suggest that you instruct your 4 man defence to play completely differently based on whether your first choice CBs are playing or not

Bailly is trained to fit into our defence. Our defence isnt trained to fit in Bailly when hes in as backup for Lindelof, playing completely differently and different tactics and disrupting themselves

Lindelof has a way he wants to play and thinks he can do well at. He's going to play that way. Same as any other CB

Tactics obviously involves playing players at their strengths. You don’t benefit from playing Bailly and Maguire the same way. It’s not about what a player wants to do, but what the coach wants him to do. If Ole didn’t like or disagreed with how Lindelof played, he wouldn’t pick him. Simple as that.

 

[Eternitiy]

He was very good against City, let's be fair.

 

[Ekeke]

Tactics obviously involves playing players at their strengths. You don’t benefit from playing Bailly and Maguire the same way. It’s not about what a player wants to do, but what the coach wants him to do. If Ole didn’t like or disagreed with how Lindelof played, he wouldn’t pick him. Simple as that.

Nobody has said he doesnt like it. That doesnt mean he told him to do it. Because if he told him to do it, others would do it when they replace Lindelof because obviously the manager thinks its important to do. They dont

 

[A-man]

Nobody has said he doesnt like it. That doesnt mean he told him to do it. Because if he told him to do it, others would do it when they replace Lindelof because obviously the manager thinks its important to do. They dont

Maguire is one of the best in the world at clearing the ball in the air. He is also slow. Lindeof is good at covering Maguire and to shut down open space. Why would they not have the instruction that Maguire push forward and try to win every header, and Lindelof cover behind? It’s not rocket science really. Doesn’t mean that Bailly 1. gets the exact same instructions as it is not playing to his strengths and 2. If he gets the same instructions, doesn’t mean Bailly stays to his task.

Ole would not pick Lindelof as starter in all big games where tactics and staying to the task is critical, if he thought Lindelof couldn’t follow instructions.

 

[Halftrack]

Nobody has said he doesnt like it. That doesnt mean he told him to do it. Because if he told him to do it, others would do it when they replace Lindelof because obviously the manager thinks its important to do. They dont

Literal children's logic, this.

 

[GioF]

Ok, fair enough, but I just wonder how counters are problematic when we play Lindelof? It’s very rare that we concede goals on counters.

Maybe it’s just certain instances that are amplified but things like Palace at home when we were chasing the game springs to mind. I just love having the pace of Bailly next to Maguire.

 

[Man-United]

Unbeaten in last 16 PL games he started. In BBC team of the week.