I hate to be the buble-breaker but you dont want to look too much into those stats.....You have to realise that ronaldo was out for 3 matches and tevez hadn't found his feet yet,we went through a barren spell of 8 goals in 9 games....the City derby will be a good indication of how much we really miss him.
Wayne Rooney | 2007-10 Performances
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The villa match was a great indication.
Again Saha started what was probably his 2nd match in a year and was completely out of socks,plus you'd expect somebody like rooney to make an huge impression coming from the bench after the 70th minute.
Also, Anderson and Nani were fantastic as subs against Spurs with Scholes, Giggs being taken off. Where is the 'Anderson is god and Nani is world class' thread ?
Agreed
Right, excuses for everything good rooney does.
Why do people show double standards when it comes to rooney? If Ronaldo or Tevez goes missing for the entire game and scores the winner, then they showed their class and are automatic choices in motm threads. When Rooney does the same, thy say he did feck all during the game and the goal is due to others' brilliance.
That's not an excuse. Ronaldo missed as many matches and Tevez wasn't even settled yet. To try and claim we only win or get results when Rooney is available, like FlawlessThaw did is naive. There are better ways of indicating Rooney's worth.
I believe it is because Rooney's game is not based on going missing then popping up with something important at different junctures in a game. This is derived from what he has always done while on form. If he isn't involved in play in a game, 9 out of 10 times it's because he has been poor that day.
Nobody claimed that, but you can't deny the impact Rooney has on our style of play and the result of the game. Any team would suffer without one of its best players. Our results without Rooney shows how important he is.
Wow!! this thread is filled only with extremists bar a few,on the one hand there's the Rooney is God no matter what brigade and on the other side is the Rooney is a complete waste of space opposition.
Bottom line like Red hot Chilli Rubber said is he'll have to be conistent in his performances to be labelled world class and not go prolonged spells on either side of the spectrum.It would even be ok to have one good match and one shit one,we have enough players to compensate for that but playing 2 months well and the next 2 below par is not good enough.
Bottom line like Red hot Chilli Rubber said is he'll have to be conistent in his performances to be labelled world class and not go prolonged spells on either side of the spectrum.It would even be ok to have one good match and one shit one,we have enough players to compensate for that but playing 2 months well and the next 2 below par is not good enough.
He who came up with those stats did
No one denies that. What people deny is, as Gus says, he doesn't do it consistently enough to warrant a word class tag. Because we all know at his best he is the type of player who always takes games by the scruff of the neck. Not drifting in and out of them "Zizou syle" like Ronaldo sometimes does.
Rather our results with him present actually show much better how important he is. For it shows his real impact. Because usually when he is missing most times other key figures like Ronaldo, Scholes or Rio are missing too. So you can't read to much into his absence. Since he is not often missing
When Rooney first arrived on the scene everything about him screamed out 'special'. As a teenager he he burst on the scene with some special performances for Everton, those goals against Arsenal etc At the Euros he made every other player in the England shirt look mediocre. He had that something about him that made you expect something.
He continued his brilliance for us. Becoming a more well rounded player, with a game that was frighteningly complete. He created load, scored, dropped deep and really ran the game for us. Yes, personally i think he carried us to an extent. He was clearly the best young player in the world. Passing, skill, pace, power, powerful shot, long ranged goals etc he had it all.
Last season he was good without ever hitting those same highs. The touch was a little more weary, he'd miss more chances, but all of this taking into account how good he can be. This season started brilliantly but once again injuries have fecked his momentum.
I cant wait to see him return to his old self. Theres a marked difference between Wayne of 2 years back and now. I want to see him run at defenders, scare the living day lights out of them, finish instinctively beause when he doesnt think he makes it look easy and for his first touch to be consistant with a player of his technical ability.
He is world class, just needs to get his form back.
He continued his brilliance for us. Becoming a more well rounded player, with a game that was frighteningly complete. He created load, scored, dropped deep and really ran the game for us. Yes, personally i think he carried us to an extent. He was clearly the best young player in the world. Passing, skill, pace, power, powerful shot, long ranged goals etc he had it all.
Last season he was good without ever hitting those same highs. The touch was a little more weary, he'd miss more chances, but all of this taking into account how good he can be. This season started brilliantly but once again injuries have fecked his momentum.
I cant wait to see him return to his old self. Theres a marked difference between Wayne of 2 years back and now. I want to see him run at defenders, scare the living day lights out of them, finish instinctively beause when he doesnt think he makes it look easy and for his first touch to be consistant with a player of his technical ability.
He is world class, just needs to get his form back.
great post
Feel free to read mithun and ik's posts in this or other threads.
So did messi, he goes missing in many away games, yet many people claim he is the best player in the world.
Ok, i'm not so sure about world class. Got carried away. At his best he is, he needs to regain that soon.
They're hardly excuses. Well, they are I guess, but correct excuses.
Obviously Rooney has a massive effect on how we play. He's our second most important attacker, much more than Tevez despite Tevez actually scoring more goals this season. But, just like I said in the Hargreaves vs Carrick threads, you can't use stats like that on such short-term periods. If the same were shown to be constantly true over a couple of seasons, then yes. But to use half a season where he's missed 10 or so games, many of which we also had Ronaldo and Tevez also out or not fit simply doesn't do it justice.
We will score more goals with Rooney in the team. That's obvious. But if you took a full strength side and simply took Rooney out it wouldn't be the massive difference that those stats show. That's why you can't take those stats too seriously.
Rooney's talent is world class. As a player he isn't yet. He is not consistent enough yet. People forget he is a kid. He has all the time in the world to become world class.
Great post.
He's incredibley rounded, there used to be a massive air of expectancy whenever he got the ball and carried it forward.
He was doing it earlier in the season and for England the other night he was fantastic. He played in every position for them like he did for us against Spurs and really carried the attack by driving forward from deep positions. That's when he's most effective in my opinion, getting it deep and forcing an attack by driving forward.
I will be disappointed not to see him play on Sunday as he is the player who I like to watch most and being in the stadium you really get to see a lot of stuff that you miss on the TV like his movement, creating space etc
Ignore mithun's posts when they come to Rooney.
Aye, I still don't think we're going to see him fullfill that potential whilst he's having to lead the line though.
He will never. If it takes two months for a player like Tevez to settle into a new team, how much time would it take for Rooney to settle into a new position? No matter where you try to play him, he tries to be a play maker and one can't be a play maker leading the line.
Mithun's ideas on Rooney are too extreme. IK however is spot on. Rooney is a phenomenal talent but not world class yet.
I don't agree at all Messi has shown over the last 2 seasons consistently enough at all levels of football to be counted as world class. Rooney has blown hot and cold, both domestically, in Eutrope and with England. You can't honestly refute this. It's like claiming Rooney or Ronaldinho were on top form last season. Just because of the end product they produced.
Spot on when he said that Rooney is on the same level as kalou or rosicky?
Henry was at Arsenal for years. Rooney's actually more used to his new role than you realise. Check out the performance vs Newcastle at OT again. It's just because he is still mastering the art of finishing that people have this inane idea he is struggling in the role.
In terms of end product this season he was right. That is why Rooney isn't world class yet. If he was consistent his end porduct would be miles above theirs. His one consistent season in 2005 should have clearly shown you this.
He's having a poor season by his standards I suppose (although injuries have majorly contributed to this) but my most people's standards he's been great:
22 games
10 goals
8 assists
22 games
10 goals
8 assists
I disagree. Rooney like Henry before him isn't a natural finisher. He has to learn and master the art. He has shown signs this season, especially pre-injury. Once that comes, consistently, people like you will be bamboozled. Rooney is simply too talented a player to not fulfill his potential, in any striking role!
But stats are not the only important things in football. For example, if you look at the stats, Rooney played no part in Tevez's goal against Villa(wigan?) when Anderson had the assist, but in realty he did play a huge role. Same with the newcastle game, Rooney had only one assist and no goals, but he played superbly. General play should be considered while determining the class of a player and Rooney is miles ahead of any players IK mentioned.
That the problem. "Most peoples standard" are only for men like Kalou. Not Some one of Rooney's caliber. He at his best would be up there with Ronaldo grabbing headlines. Guaranteed! feck those injuries
For a Rooney they must count over a the season. Because he is way too talented to be only in the back ground of all play ala Scholes. That you surely must admit.
Rooney is one of the best footballers around when you just consider his technique. Add in his athleticism and his extreme will to win, and you have a very special footballer.
You need only watch the Tottenham match to see how important his attitude is, and how it rubs off on the rest of the players. I have never, not once, seen Rooney go missing in a game, and I can't think of anyone else bar Roy Keane I could say the same about. You might say Alan Smith was the same, but the important difference is that Rooney is an excellent footballer as well.
You need only watch the Tottenham match to see how important his attitude is, and how it rubs off on the rest of the players. I have never, not once, seen Rooney go missing in a game, and I can't think of anyone else bar Roy Keane I could say the same about. You might say Alan Smith was the same, but the important difference is that Rooney is an excellent footballer as well.
Rooney does go missing in games. When he under uttlises his talent, with poor touches and poor decisions on what to do with the ball, giving it away often or simply shooting too wildly. His work rate never compensates for this. Thankfully he is no longer prone to this disease ala last season.
In all honesty I generally do take stats with a pinch of salt. It's just I thought it was worth pointing out.
We don't need the city game to show how much we miss Rooney. We already saw it in the match against Villa away.
We don't need the city game to show how much we miss Rooney. We already saw it in the match against Villa away.
Enjoyed your post...and i agree with you..barring the last sentence. Which i think you retracted..(was that you, cant remember now). Anyhow he cant be world class just yet because of his consistency levels at the moment in my opinion. Not to say he isnt a top top player and world class on his day.
But back on track, the bit above is key. He is a different animal these days. I would love to see him running at defenders a bit more and like you say he's a far better finisher instinctively than when he thinks about it...sure sign he will never be a world class natural 9.
Why has that element of his game diminished? (dribbling). is it the positions he picks the ball up? or have we coached it out of him a bit? Also why has his edge of the box shooting diminished? or has it? again is that to do with the postions he picks the ball up in?
I remember watching him for england and in the early days thinking..get this guy space anywhere around the edge of the box and he'll work the keeper. Solid and consistent ability to work the keeper from that range. Where has that gone? And his raw ability to go at defenders....
These are genuine questions..im curious to know your opinions. Dont mistake this for a moan..ill be the first to acknowledge his overall game has improved massively but it just seems that the elements that first made us sign him are the ones that havent been developed as much. Perhaps this is just a stage of his evolution and in two years time we'll be looking at rooney returning more towards the animal of a couple of years ago but with a more complete game to boot??
Fair enough
It's quite simple really IMO. Rooney has lost the brazen arrogance he had on the pitch, when he first came out. Previously, Rooney used to play with no respect for who he was facing and With no self consciousness of what he was doing. His job and mind set was to get on pitch and sort out the opponents with a football while playing on instinct, conducted superbly by his excellent football brain. the type of arrogance and fearlessness Ronaldo plays with. Which on Rooney was awe inspiring. That is why he used to run opponents ragged and embarrass them wit his skills. While scoring outstanding goals like is 2005 goal vs Boro in the FA cup.
Currently IMO he plays with a bit too much respect for the opposition and a bit of analysis paralysis. He tends to over think about what to do. Which has robbed him of some of his spontaneity inf rot of goal. That is why he can have 6 good chances and score one, because he is thinking too much about how to beat the keeper, rather than simply hitting it sweet and letting the keeper sort out it's stopping, like in his early days. That is why he also doesn't shoot as much form range like before.
Pre injruy though, he looked like the arrogance was flooding back it must be said. Which showed in his goals and stats. I just hope once it returns full time he keeps it consistently ala Ronaldo.
Gushiddink, i think you have touched on some very interesting points, i myself have wondered this for a while now and it saddens me to think these parts of his game which i loved so much are only a shadow of what they used to be.
I remember in his first few seasons when he would burst past anyone with amazing explosiveness, like a bulldozer, and always create the angle to have a great accurate shot, he used to always run at people and his enthusiasm to get round an opponent always prevailed. His used to have so much more confidence in his dribbling i feel.
Its really hard to say whats wrong and how it happened, because if it was that easy to put our finger on then surely ferguson would have spoken of this to rooney and corrected it. The only things i can suggest are that maybe oppositions defences have become accustomed to rooneys game and are able to counter it a bit easier and restrict his game,in shooting from distance he doesnt seem to get the room or the angles, although gerrard still always manages to score from long rang, but he plays from the midfield and has more space, but thats not to say defences dont try and stop him.
There is also the confidence issue and i think wayne has suffered a lot here too, maybe he hasnt got to a level that he excepted of himself and this mentally has taken its tole, there is the ronaldo rise and this maybe effects him. My last point is that maybe rooney isnt as fit as his used to be as a 17-18 yr old, He seems to fatigue more and breathe a lot heavier after exerting a lot of energy and isnt able to expend the same amounts as ronaldo can who is a natural athlete so he has the capability to just keep dribbling and taking people on, where as rooney seems to need to release to ball because he seems to tire easier.
These are all just suggestions might i add and im not saying this are the defintive reasons just suggestions.
I think i got my points across with a bit of a ramble, but this really gets me thinking because rooney is my favorite player and to see him getting back to explosive and animal like best i know and love would be a dream. I think it is within his means to do so though, he just needs to think less and be more confident in his own natural ability and start to take people on because he can do it, he just seems a bit hesitant.
I remember in his first few seasons when he would burst past anyone with amazing explosiveness, like a bulldozer, and always create the angle to have a great accurate shot, he used to always run at people and his enthusiasm to get round an opponent always prevailed. His used to have so much more confidence in his dribbling i feel.
Its really hard to say whats wrong and how it happened, because if it was that easy to put our finger on then surely ferguson would have spoken of this to rooney and corrected it. The only things i can suggest are that maybe oppositions defences have become accustomed to rooneys game and are able to counter it a bit easier and restrict his game,in shooting from distance he doesnt seem to get the room or the angles, although gerrard still always manages to score from long rang, but he plays from the midfield and has more space, but thats not to say defences dont try and stop him.
There is also the confidence issue and i think wayne has suffered a lot here too, maybe he hasnt got to a level that he excepted of himself and this mentally has taken its tole, there is the ronaldo rise and this maybe effects him. My last point is that maybe rooney isnt as fit as his used to be as a 17-18 yr old, He seems to fatigue more and breathe a lot heavier after exerting a lot of energy and isnt able to expend the same amounts as ronaldo can who is a natural athlete so he has the capability to just keep dribbling and taking people on, where as rooney seems to need to release to ball because he seems to tire easier.
These are all just suggestions might i add and im not saying this are the defintive reasons just suggestions.
I think i got my points across with a bit of a ramble, but this really gets me thinking because rooney is my favorite player and to see him getting back to explosive and animal like best i know and love would be a dream. I think it is within his means to do so though, he just needs to think less and be more confident in his own natural ability and start to take people on because he can do it, he just seems a bit hesitant.
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber, agree with what u said, it seems he thinks way to much now and it isnt a good thing, he needs to combine his natural ability with what he has learnt up till now and express it all without thinking, and i think this will come, he seems to be in transition but i think he can get there
Honestly he had got there earlier this season. Only injury has fecked his momentum. Else he was on a role like Ronaldo IMO at one point. Devastating in the finish simply by letting the ball work, to get goals. Rather than thinking of how to direct it.
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