We are an awfully coached team

[RashyForPM]

A few quotes from the Athletic’s article today on the game last night:

“We place that definition in italics as United’s second-half performance against Milan demonstrated the pros and cons to their current tactical system; one that allows for creative interpretation in attack and demands personal responsibility in defence.”

“Solskjaer wants his United to play quick football with an attacking unit capable of changing shape at will. It’s a lofty aim requiring his creative players to be intelligent enough to spot potential goalscoring opportunities, and then brave enough to try the audacious when needed.”

“It can be hard to tell if Solskjaer allows so much interpretation from his team because he doesn’t know how to set up a more refined system or if he just doesn’t have the training time to implement one in this hectic season.”

“It is a goal that United often score — out of nothing”

You know what? I agree with everything here. Ole does not know how to set us up to attack. Pep has inverted full backs and wingers getting to the byline to set up tap-ins. Klopp has overlapping full backs getting crosses in. Poch has the positional game. Flick has inverted wingers and full-backs bombing forward, with midfielders getting into the box with Lewandowski. People who support other clubs mock us with ‘no tactics, just vibes’ and ‘Express Yourself FC’, but you what as well? They’re absolutely right. He needs to go imo. I was on the fence all season up to the Palace game, but the guy is out of his depth here.

 

[Denis' cuff]

A few quotes from the Athletic’s article today on the game last night:

“We place that definition in italics as United’s second-half performance against Milan demonstrated the pros and cons to their current tactical system; one that allows for creative interpretation in attack and demands personal responsibility in defence.”

“Solskjaer wants his United to play quick football with an attacking unit capable of changing shape at will. It’s a lofty aim requiring his creative players to be intelligent enough to spot potential goalscoring opportunities, and then brave enough to try the audacious when needed.”

“It can be hard to tell if Solskjaer allows so much interpretation from his team because he doesn’t know how to set up a more refined system or if he just doesn’t have the training time to implement one in this hectic season.”

“It is a goal that United often score — out of nothing”

You know what? I agree with everything here. Ole does not know how to set us up to attack. Pep has inverted full backs and wingers getting to the byline to set up tap-ins. Klopp has overlapping full backs getting crosses in. Poch has the positional game. Flick has inverted wingers and full-backs bombing forward, with midfielders getting into the box with Lewandowski. People who support other clubs mock us with ‘no tactics, just vibes’ and ‘Express Yourself FC’, but you what as well? They’re absolutely right. He needs to go imo. I was on the fence all season up to the Palace game, but the guy is out of his depth here.

pretty similar to Fergie then.

this place: “Ole’s fault” - “Henderson’s fault”.

virtual supporters. feck me. Go and support “other clubs”

 

[Godfather]

A few quotes from the Athletic’s article today on the game last night:

“We place that definition in italics as United’s second-half performance against Milan demonstrated the pros and cons to their current tactical system; one that allows for creative interpretation in attack and demands personal responsibility in defence.”

“Solskjaer wants his United to play quick football with an attacking unit capable of changing shape at will. It’s a lofty aim requiring his creative players to be intelligent enough to spot potential goalscoring opportunities, and then brave enough to try the audacious when needed.”

“It can be hard to tell if Solskjaer allows so much interpretation from his team because he doesn’t know how to set up a more refined system or if he just doesn’t have the training time to implement one in this hectic season.”

“It is a goal that United often score — out of nothing”

You know what? I agree with everything here. Ole does not know how to set us up to attack. Pep has inverted full backs and wingers getting to the byline to set up tap-ins. Klopp has overlapping full backs getting crosses in. Poch has the positional game. Flick has inverted wingers and full-backs bombing forward, with midfielders getting into the box with Lewandowski. People who support other clubs mock us with ‘no tactics, just vibes’ and ‘Express Yourself FC’, but you what as well? They’re absolutely right. He needs to go imo. I was on the fence all season up to the Palace game, but the guy is out of his depth here.

Spot on. Although it's pretty obvious which of the two alternatives pointed out is present. I don't buy that he hasn't had enough time to implement his own system. He simply doesn't know how.

 

[kouroux]

Its clear that we play very well but only against a specific way that teams set up against us, if teams sit in deep and compact then we are clueless, its been this way for ages, I'm not sure the coaching staff have what it takes to coach a pattern of play to counter this setup, as I have seen zero improvement at all against teams that play this way.

It really is as simple as that. A lot of people like to pinpoint the blame but I'd just say that the players aren't good enough and neither is the coaching. Even if the players could be improved, there is no way for me that we couldn't play better on a more regular basis

 

[Godfather]

pretty similar to Fergie then.

this place: “Ole’s fault” - “Henderson’s fault”.

virtual supporters. feck me. Go and support “other clubs”

Yet you have no problem going in on Pogba, DeGea and Martial. But God forbid people criticise our academy lad Henderson for not keeping a ball out a league 3 keeper would save.

 

[Denis' cuff]

It really is as simple as that. A lot of people like to pinpoint the blame but I'd just say that the players aren't good enough and neither is the coaching. Even if the players could be improved, there is no way for me that we couldn't play better on a more regular basis

agree with all that. Plus the way the club is run by the owners and Woodward. But you need to lay the blame on Ole, Henderson, Maguire, Rashford or whoever .... how on earth have you managed to come on here often enough to make 80,000 posts and put up with this shite? Not a criticism but I sure admire your patience,

 

[kouroux]

agree with all that. Plus the way the club is run by the owners and Woodward. But you need to lay the blame on Ole, Henderson, Maguire, Rashford or whoever .... how on earth have you managed to come on here often enough to make 80,000 posts and put up with this shite? Not a criticism but I sure admire your patience,

I really don't post as much as often. I was crazy active years ago when I was a student but now, life you know...
The caf has changed a lot over the years, it used to be very funny and people weren't taking things so seriously. I guess I'm feeling out of phase

 

[Denis' cuff]

Yet you have no problem going in on Pogba, DeGea and Martial. But God forbid people criticise our academy lad Henderson for not keeping a ball out a league 3 keeper would save.

my word, somebody has been doing their homework.

Not even had a dozen games and judged for being beaten by a strong header from 6 yards by idiots ffs. Oh, and he actually looks like he at least gives a shit. If he’s not good enough, time will tell. Then he’ll be gone. Doubt if he’ll ever earn 200/250 grand a week for strolling around while there’s a match going on. For 4/5 years, no less.
Glad you didn’t witness Fletcher’s (or Fergie’s) early days.

 

[RashyForPM]

pretty similar to Fergie then.

this place: “Ole’s fault” - “Henderson’s fault”.

virtual supporters. feck me. Go and support “other clubs”

What a horrendous post. So it’s no ones fault then? When the team puts a shit show out like yesterday, we should all shut up and say how how well we played. When Ole’s plays 5 defenders and three defensive midfielders for 20 minutes, which people were questioning because we conceded, which leads to us conceding, we can’t criticise.

Also, because I have valid criticism on Ole and want him to go, I should support another club. It’s the thick, blinded ‘fans’ like you who should piss off to someone smaller in the city like Stockport, Rochdale or Altrincham, where expectations are at your level. Take your pick, gave you three options, because you’re a Glazer puppet who is holding the club back with this weak, awful mentality. They love people like you.

Also, do you realise how nonsensical you sound if I haven’t told you already? You just compared Ole to Fergie and said Fergie solely relied to individual brilliance. What a load of tripe. Another guy who probably thinks Fergie was 100% man-management and 0% tactics. Then, you call me and others who praise the team when we do well and criticise when we don’t virtual supporters. If that is something bad, then never post on this forum again. Otherwise, you’re a hypocrite aren’t you?

 

[Denis' cuff]

Red Cafe: the polar opposite of RAWK

 

[Godfather]

my word, somebody has been doing their homework.

Wasn't hard to do. There's a pattern to supporters like you that put a blind eye on Ole and English lads:

1. You must not criticise Ole
2. You must not criticise academy products
3. You must not criticise English lads

Everyone else however: Go on have a proper go.

As to your other points:

Of course Hendo will be judged for his performanes. That's what happens when you are a footballer. He was at fault for the goal yesterday. As was McT who just stood there and watched. Doesn't mean Hendo should be written off. He'll have a lot of chances to prove that he has what it takes to be a number 1 for us.

 

[RashyForPM]

Wasn't hard to do. There's a pattern to supporters like you that put a blind eye on Ole and English lads:

1. You must not criticise Ole
2. You must not criticise academy products
3. You must not criticise English lads

Everyone else however: Go on have a proper go.

Guy is absolutely clueless. He’s like DT on AFTV with his agenda for Arteta and borderline hatred for Bellerin.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

pretty similar to Fergie then.

this place: “Ole’s fault” - “Henderson’s fault”.

virtual supporters. feck me. Go and support “other clubs”

Ole = Fergie.

The shit people say to defend Ole is ridiculous. I've never seen so many delusional comparisions between the greatest manager this club has ever seen and maybe one of the most irrelevant.

 

[Denis' cuff]

Wasn't hard to do. There's a pattern to supporters like you that put a blind eye on Ole and English lads:

1. You must not criticise Ole
2. You must not criticise academy products
3. You must not criticise English lads

Everyone else however: Go on have a proper go.

you epitomise this place in a nutshell. Tiny minded and must pigeonhole whoever disagrees with my narrative.

Just clarify for me: can I Criticise Ole even though he is not English?

can I have a go at OWB or would that make me racist? If I rate him (I do) is that despite him not being an academy product?

Must’ve thought Shaw was Bulgarian when I was critical of him and God knows what I’ll think of Amad or even Irish lads like Kevin Moran (you probably never heard if him)

Never been one of the academy cult btw - I take as i find and leave people like you to cling onto cliques and cliches. The 3x players you picked out care little for United and would not have lasted 5 minutes under Fergie (not English btw - are Scots included?)

 

[Denis' cuff]

Ole = Fergie.

The shit people say to defend Ole is ridiculous. I've never seen so many delusional comparisions between the greatest manager this club has ever seen and maybe one of the most irrelevant.

doubt you were around when Fergie was struggling for results. Just attached yourself to the club when we were good. Another shiny new thing will be along for you soon enough.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

doubt you were around when Fergie was struggling for results. Just attached yourself to the club when we were good. Another shiny new thing will be along for you soon enough.

Yup, I'm a glory hunter. Searching for glory is my thing. Soon I'll support someone else to make up for the lack of glory since 2013.

Oh, and Ole > Fergie.

 

[Denis' cuff]

What a horrendous post. So it’s no ones fault then? When the team puts a shit show out like yesterday, we should all shut up and say how how well we played. When Ole’s plays 5 defenders and three defensive midfielders for 20 minutes, which people were questioning because we conceded, which leads to us conceding, we can’t criticise.

Also, because I have valid criticism on Ole and want him to go, I should support another club. It’s the thick, blinded ‘fans’ like you who should piss off to someone smaller in the city like Stockport, Rochdale or Altrincham, where expectations are at your level. Take your pick, gave you three options, because you’re a Glazer puppet who is holding the club back with this weak, awful mentality. They love people like you.

Also, do you realise how nonsensical you sound if I haven’t told you already? You just compared Ole to Fergie and said Fergie solely relied to individual brilliance. What a load of tripe. Another guy who probably thinks Fergie was 100% man-management and 0% tactics. Then, you call me and others who praise the team when we do well and criticise when we don’t virtual supporters. If that is something bad, then never post on this forum again. Otherwise, you’re a hypocrite aren’t you?

Car crash - where to start!

your “expectations” are only there because you’re a spoilt little boy who can’t accept his adopted team aren’t winning everything. Club needs great support like yours.

Generations of Salford supporters are where my family are and season ticket holders after years of standing on the terraces. Called a “Glazer puppet” by some poor misinformed JCL from Gloucester? Behave.

 

[pocco]

I don't really buy into him being a defensive manager. How many other teams play with a No.10 like we do? Bruno plays so high up sonetimes it's almost like playing two centre forwards. That's not the trait of a defensive manager. We don't use a DM either like most teams. The wide players stay wide, we don't pack the middle. Shaw gets forward as much as any fullback. He might have defensive moments, most managers do, it's not his philosophy though.

The big issue is our passing ability. I don't think we choose to sit back, we just move it so slowly and give it away so often that's it's really difficult to get the team up the pitch and keep them there. The moment we do progress forward, get the CB's up, somebody gives it away cheeply. Win the ball back and repeat.

Who's responsible for the poor passing? I'd put it on the players, I don't think a change of manager improves their choice of pass or quality.

However I think you could argue we don't create enough angles, move enough to give options etc, which would be on the manager. I'm not a fan of "fluid" systems either, players constantly switching around. Just pick players in their best positions, where they can give the best of their talent and allow repeatable patterns of play to develop.

Playing a no 10 isn't the benchmark of an attacking manager, especially when it's Bruno, who tracks back and works like a dog every single game. He's as safe a bet as a no 10 as there is. We do use 2 holding midfielders who are more defensive than attacking. Even asking the wide player to stay wide is, in some ways, defensive. Because they also often have to engage the opposition full back and provide cover to our fullbacks. If they were allowed fluid movement across the front line, this would be more attacking as you are then risking freeing up their fullbacks on the counter.

I don't necessarily say I'd class Ole as defensive. He's just tactically...nothing. a hodge podge of 'here nor there'. He's definitely pragmatic in his thinking though at times and I 100% believe there's a lot of self preservation going on with him.

And our inability to pass forward is also because of the lack of movement in attack. It's harder to see on TV but I was taking photos at times of the game last night to send my mates and show that often there's like 30 yards of space between defence/matic/McTominay and our forwards. It's often impossible to go forward. Watch other teams and you'll see how they overcome this through coaching. I am a ST holder and could see this was a problem even last season and continues to today (I saw it under Moyes too, but a completely different set of players now). The reason we miss Pogba is because he can do ridiculous phases of play like skipping a couple of players to get the ball forward. We rely far too much on individual quality when we shouldn't have to with good coaching. It's not sustainable to play this way.

 

[Foxbatt]

Ole has to go and I have been a United fan long before Fergie stopped playing. Have supported them since 67. Done the second division thing too. We sacked managers even those days. Much better managers than Ole.
Next season Whatshisname, has to make a decision. He is going to be put on the spot.
I would say that Pep, Klopp, Tuchel, Rogers and Carlo are better coaches than Ole. They have good to decent financial backing too. They will strengthen during the transfer window too.
The never ending excuse would be that Whatshisname did not get the players Ole wanted. Didn't Moyes LVG and Jose say the same thing? No manager is going to get what he wants.

 

[red4ever 79]

It's so bad watching us. Every match we start slow and there is no enjoyment. We could and should have been a couple of goals down early on yesterday. What was with sitting back yesterday and absorbing pressure like that. We invited them onto us and they thoroughly deserved their goal.

 

[RashyForPM]

Car crash - where to start!

your “expectations” are only there because you’re a spoilt little boy who can’t accept his adopted team aren’t winning everything. Club needs great support like yours.

Generations of Salford supporters are where my family are and season ticket holders after years of standing on the terraces. Called a “Glazer puppet” by some poor misinformed JCL from Gloucester? Behave.

Salford used to be in the 8th tier - so that’s what your expectations are! Getting a nose bleed in League 2 now you! You wouldn’t complain if we got relegated. Glazers love doormats like you who take all sorts of shit without a single objection. If every United fan had your lame mindset, we’d probably be where Salford are, League 2.

Sir Matt set his team up to attack hard, to live up to the expectations of the fans who worked hard all week. You think they accepted all sorts of shite like you? You probably wanted Moyes to remain in charge after the 13-14 season.

You had too much to drink or something? Go to bed lad. I’ve never even been to Gloucester. Clueless tripe, your posts in this thread. Love how you haven’t responded to any of the points I made in my previous posts about Ole as well.

 

[RashyForPM]

you epitomise this place in a nutshell. Tiny minded and must pigeonhole whoever disagrees with my narrative.

Just clarify for me: can I Criticise Ole even though he is not English?

can I have a go at OWB or would that make me racist? If I rate him (I do) is that despite him not being an academy product?

Must’ve thought Shaw was Bulgarian when I was critical of him and God knows what I’ll think of Amad or even Irish lads like Kevin Moran (you probably never heard if him)

Never been one of the academy cult btw - I take as i find and leave people like you to cling onto cliques and cliches. The 3x players you picked out care little for United and would not have lasted 5 minutes under Fergie (not English btw - are Scots included?)

Never mind. Not just clueless, arrogant too. One of those who can’t handle different opinions. If we are tiny minded, what are you? Empty minded?

Your posts in this thread have been absolutely awful. There’s a reason everyone disagrees with your nonsense.

 

[Rhetorik]

People are saying this is similar to the Mourinho era and they are right. The same culprits are coaching the first 11 from then - Carrick and McKenna.

It is no surprise we haven't developed a pattern of play to break down sides if we are persisting with the same personnel.

If Ole fails to identify this, then the buck stops with him. We desperately need fresh ideas. Fergie was successful at doing this in bringing in coaches with something to add. The cronyism at the club is holding us back from evolving.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

You have to think the original plan for hiring LVG was to modernise the football for a young progressive to come in before they panicked with Mourinho, you’d think at some point they’ll look to go back to that.

 

[NZT-One]

Sorry for long post (I had only 3 left for today)

I think the spine of the team SAF got or brought together was from other clubs. They were not young players. Now we can talk about the class of 92. But they were introduced into a team that was already successful and had a style of playing. Roy Keane always said it was control, pass and move. That was the basics of the team. SAF was a lot more tactical than most people think. In today's football you cannot simply wing it. It is too tactical and players need to be more aware of that.

I would say that Milan corner was worked in training. At this level these players should be able to control and pass and move. Maybe not under extreme pressure but we cannot control with no pressure and our passing is horrible most of the time.

One thing I have also noticed is now that our players usually wait for the ball to come to them. I think this is bad basics. (1) It gives time for the opposing player to close down.(2) It also gives our player less time to control the ball and to bring it under control. I do not think why we are so poor in the basics of football?

I think you make some interesting conclusions. I agree with you about the observations: we do pass the ball to feet more often than not and at times we play pretty slowly. You question the basic technical abilities of the players, I think, this is a valid thought however I don't think, I would follow this conclusion. I mean we have pretty good players and that level of technical ability should be there by the end of your "football education". In the 1st 5min of yesterdays game we had a few one-touch exchanges that almost baffled me. So the ability is there but the players don't apply them on a regular level. Be that because of instruction or doubts in their own abilities.

My conclusion is, that this is more down to our tries of playing just by improvising. I mean improvising as an opposite to a more refined and structured systematic way. I think, if players know where their team mates are (or supposed to be) than they will also be able to play the ball more into space, which then will increase the speed of our play which will then make it way harder to defend against us which then will lead to more mistakes by defenders which then will lead to more goal scoring opportunities.... Man, what a sentence... I swear it makes total sense in my head

What we seemingly do is (it is also mentioned in the Athletic article above) is to rely on improvisation which is also absolutely legitimate, but you need players with good abilities, on the same wavelength and in no bad form as well. Thats why it is susceptible. Thats not saying that a systematic approach has no disadvantages, it does but in my book these isses would be luxury items in comparison with the issues now.



About Fergie and his tactics. I have no real grip on the days before 2007 but from what I recall these where the early days of websites like zonal-marking and spielverlagerung. The conclusion back then was, that SAF strength were motivation, man-management, management of the team during the playing season and in-game adjustments. He was not faulty tactically but it wasn't one of his strongest suits. But he was very aware of that and introduced co-trainer like Queiroz or Meulenstein to address that. There is a very interesting interview with Rene here /watch?v=5Q8xcay0uPw (youtube link, not allowed to put the actual link here) - I thought it was pretty interesting to listen to.

Why are our wingers playing so wide like its early 2000s ? Anyone can explain maybe

I would agree if you say that most of the players we deploy on the wing are not suited to playing wide. Except for James I feel they are way more inclined to go to the middle and try to score themselves. Which is somewhat fine as long as the team does not lose its width.

This width is the answer to your question in my point of view. Back in the days it was the wingers who provided that, then Fullbacks and Wingbacks got that job while the wingers went inverted to attack the box. In the end it does not really matter, who is there but without width, you make the pitch smaller which will

a) make it easier to play quick passes but
b) it requires your players to be technically more sound and
c)also defenders can stay closer together which makes it easier to stay in shape.

Start of the year we weren't really using the pitch at all, everything was cloughed up in the left "Halbraum" or channel. It was pretty recognisable on the average positions (I use the app Sofascore for that). As of now, AWB starts to become a little more comfortable on the ball so he can provide more of an outlet on the right.

The latest trend in football seems to be using inverted fullbacks, where they do not engage high up the pitch but roam into the centre to bolster the midfield while the nominal midfielders join the attack. Pep is doing that to make more use of Gundogan and De Bruynes goal scoring abilities. Flick also uses Kimmich like that. It seems like Ole is going down the same route with Shaw lately. And if he orientates more to the center, Rashford is required to stay more wide. I think Rashford is quite capable of doing that, Martial and Greenwood however are not very suited for it so lets see how this pans out.

I don't know what the stance is here about Statman-Dave but I think what he describes is pretty plausible. At least what he identified as issues have been identified in other places as well.

Here is the video watch?v=NTtCAj0Lqyo (not allowed to post links)

Ole has to go and I have been a United fan long before Fergie stopped playing. Have supported them since 67. Done the second division thing too. We sacked managers even those days. Much better managers than Ole.

...

The never ending excuse would be that Whatshisname did not get the players Ole wanted. Didn't Moyes LVG and Jose say the same thing? No manager is going to get what he wants.

I see your concerns but I don't see the obvious alternative right now plus I have no trust in Woodward to make a better manager choice this time all of a sudden.

Maybe at one point when we know more about Murtough I will feel more safe but right now I don't think, the chance of getting rid going well are higher than going bad. I mean Ole isn't the sole reason of our issues, results wise we are at least stable and all players he brought in will be of use for the next manager as well. Stabilizing us in this position isn't the worst thing in the world - as long as this doesn't lead to a situation where we (i.e. the club) stop keeping our eyes open for promising candidates. Maybe the introduction of another co-trainer is an option, it certainly woud be a less invasive approach.

 

[GoldTrafford99]

I'm not sure they ever intended to have Ole as the permanent manager, but after the run he went on as caretaker, they simply couldn't sack him.

pretty similar to Fergie then.

this place: “Ole’s fault” - “Henderson’s fault”.

virtual supporters. feck me. Go and support “other clubs”

Abso
Feckin
Lutely

These "virtual supporters" are either on a wind up or need to get a life...

They have absolutely no idea abut the club they have chosen to support.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Who is our main defensive coach? McKenna from what I’ve read is more attack minded and I’d imagine Carrick is also more focused on the offensive side of the game so that leaves Phelan? Maybe we should be looking to bring in a specialist to tighten us up, a Queiroz type figure.

 

[Amir]

I actually do agree that Solskjaer's ideas have a resemblance to Fergie. While those involving culture and atmopshere are sound, the ones about the style of football - being less systematic, etc - are an issue. Because Fergie changed and adapted with the times, and even when he seemed to be left a little behind in his latter years, he could still pull it off because he was a one-off. Solskjaer seems to be implementing things that football has moved forward from quite a few years ago. And he hasn't got that Fergie X-factor to help him through.

 

[90 + 5min]

Mate come on. I’m not anti Ole but today was an awful performance. A truly shocking one in fact.

I wouldn't call it awful. We could have done better. I agree. But far away from shocking. We played Milan. Not some sunday league side.

It was that bad and yet we’re still not any better, even if we believe Ole has done all these positive things the end result is we’re still no better than 3 years ago.

I disagree. I think we are way better and on way to even better things. There is positivity around club, except some fans that are still after someone better. We have heard this everlasting "we need someone better" since Atkinson, Ferguson, Moyes, VanGaal, Mourinho and now Solskjaer. Regardless how well we were performing. I don't mind people giving criticism. I think even that is a healthy thing. But making it look like we are relegation side with Solskjaer is beyond everything.

We have lost 2 games since christmas and are 2nd in table. We can win some trophy this year. Let us see how it works out after season. Concidering that, it isn't that awful as people want to make out.

 

[Roboc7]

I wouldn't call it awful. We could have done better. I agree. But far away from shocking. We played Milan. Not some sunday league side.


I disagree. I think we are way better and on way to even better things. There is positivity around club, except some fans that are still after someone better. We have heard this everlasting "we need someone better" since Atkinson, Ferguson, Moyes, VanGaal, Mourinho and now Solskjaer. Regardless how well we were performing. I don't mind people giving criticism. I think even that is a healthy thing. But making it look like we are relegation side with Solskjaer is beyond everything.

We have lost 2 games since christmas and are 2nd in table. We can win some trophy this year. Let us see how it works out after season. Concidering that, it isn't that awful as people want to make out.

You can’t disagree, you said results and performances were much better three years ago, they weren’t. I haven’t seen anyone say we’re a relegation side, there are just people not lapping up treading water.

 

[90 + 5min]

You can’t disagree, you said results and performances were much better three years ago, they weren’t. I haven’t seen anyone say we’re a relegation side, there are just people not lapping up treading water.

Better then 3 years ago and steady going forward.

Concidering that threads are full where people actually say that Solskjaer is worst manager in Premier League there is conclussion that we are awful side. But everything points to opposite.

 

[Roboc7]

Better then 3 years ago and steady going forward.

Concidering that threads are full where people actually say that Solskjaer is worst manager in Premier League there is conclussion that we are awful side. But everything points to opposite.

Three years ago we didn’t get knocked out of group stage in Champions League, got 81 points, finished second and reached a Cup Final, we’re definitely not better, that’s not a debate.

 

[Foxbatt]

Sorry for long post (I had only 3 left for today)




I think you make some interesting conclusions. I agree with you about the observations: we do pass the ball to feet more often than not and at times we play pretty slowly. You question the basic technical abilities of the players, I think, this is a valid thought however I don't think, I would follow this conclusion. I mean we have pretty good players and that level of technical ability should be there by the end of your "football education". In the 1st 5min of yesterdays game we had a few one-touch exchanges that almost baffled me. So the ability is there but the players don't apply them on a regular level. Be that because of instruction or doubts in their own abilities.

My conclusion is, that this is more down to our tries of playing just by improvising. I mean improvising as an opposite to a more refined and structured systematic way. I think, if players know where their team mates are (or supposed to be) than they will also be able to play the ball more into space, which then will increase the speed of our play which will then make it way harder to defend against us which then will lead to more mistakes by defenders which then will lead to more goal scoring opportunities.... Man, what a sentence... I swear it makes total sense in my head

What we seemingly do is (it is also mentioned in the Athletic article above) is to rely on improvisation which is also absolutely legitimate, but you need players with good abilities, on the same wavelength and in no bad form as well. Thats why it is susceptible. Thats not saying that a systematic approach has no disadvantages, it does but in my book these isses would be luxury items in comparison with the issues now.



About Fergie and his tactics. I have no real grip on the days before 2007 but from what I recall these where the early days of websites like zonal-marking and spielverlagerung. The conclusion back then was, that SAF strength were motivation, man-management, management of the team during the playing season and in-game adjustments. He was not faulty tactically but it wasn't one of his strongest suits. But he was very aware of that and introduced co-trainer like Queiroz or Meulenstein to address that. There is a very interesting interview with Rene here /watch?v=5Q8xcay0uPw (youtube link, not allowed to put the actual link here) - I thought it was pretty interesting to listen to.





I would agree if you say that most of the players we deploy on the wing are not suited to playing wide. Except for James I feel they are way more inclined to go to the middle and try to score themselves. Which is somewhat fine as long as the team does not lose its width.

This width is the answer to your question in my point of view. Back in the days it was the wingers who provided that, then Fullbacks and Wingbacks got that job while the wingers went inverted to attack the box. In the end it does not really matter, who is there but without width, you make the pitch smaller which will

a) make it easier to play quick passes but
b) it requires your players to be technically more sound and
c)also defenders can stay closer together which makes it easier to stay in shape.

Start of the year we weren't really using the pitch at all, everything was cloughed up in the left "Halbraum" or channel. It was pretty recognisable on the average positions (I use the app Sofascore for that). As of now, AWB starts to become a little more comfortable on the ball so he can provide more of an outlet on the right.

The latest trend in football seems to be using inverted fullbacks, where they do not engage high up the pitch but roam into the centre to bolster the midfield while the nominal midfielders join the attack. Pep is doing that to make more use of Gundogan and De Bruynes goal scoring abilities. Flick also uses Kimmich like that. It seems like Ole is going down the same route with Shaw lately. And if he orientates more to the center, Rashford is required to stay more wide. I think Rashford is quite capable of doing that, Martial and Greenwood however are not very suited for it so lets see how this pans out.

I don't know what the stance is here about Statman-Dave but I think what he describes is pretty plausible. At least what he identified as issues have been identified in other places as well.

Here is the video watch?v=NTtCAj0Lqyo (not allowed to post links)




I see your concerns but I don't see the obvious alternative right now plus I have no trust in Woodward to make a better manager choice this time all of a sudden.

Maybe at one point when we know more about Murtough I will feel more safe but right now I don't think, the chance of getting rid going well are higher than going bad. I mean Ole isn't the sole reason of our issues, results wise we are at least stable and all players he brought in will be of use for the next manager as well. Stabilizing us in this position isn't the worst thing in the world - as long as this doesn't lead to a situation where we (i.e. the club) stop keeping our eyes open for promising candidates. Maybe the introduction of another co-trainer is an option, it certainly woud be a less invasive approach.

I have seen United from the time of Sir Matt. It's true that it was not tactical at all. But the basics for those days were applied. The W formation of two wingers, a CF, two inside forwards, a centre half, two full backs and two wing halfs. We also had Bobby Charlton, Denis Law and George Best.
When he left and we got Dave Sexton it was very tactical. A bit like LVG to be honest. Now it feels like it's the time of Big Ron. We could be brilliant one match and horrible the next. SAF had a set plan which he used at Aberdeen. He got it going at United too. He was big enough to accept that he needed better coaches once he got into Europe and got found out. We have to remember that there were not much foreign influence in the English League then.
It's then he started getting young progressive coaches from other clubs.
My problem with Ole is not as per him but his coaching staff. But he is responsible for his coaching staff. I really don't understand why he wouldn't get someone who is more experienced? Maybe even foreign? If Rene and Carlos was good enough for SAF, it should be good enough for Ole. Any decent player can control the ball when under no pressure. Our passing is not bad as per. It's that our passing goes to the wrong space. Which means that they don't practice it at training.
As another OP has said very humourously, we do a triangle between two players. Ole may be forced to use players he doesn't want to use but for him to let them do whatever they want is simply unacceptable. I am talking of players being out of position a lot, players not tracking back and generally not making much of an effort.

 

[united_99]

I actually do agree that Solskjaer's ideas have a resemblance to Fergie. While those involving culture and atmopshere are sound, the ones about the style of football - being less systematic, etc - are an issue. Because Fergie changed and adapted with the times, and even when he seemed to be left a little behind in his latter years, he could still pull it off because he was a one-off. Solskjaer seems to be implementing things that football has moved forward from quite a few years ago. And he hasn't got that Fergie X-factor to help him through.

Yep. Plus under Fergie mostly everyone (players, opposition, fans, etc.) knew how we would play but we mastered the play so we were successful for so many years with some minor tweaks. We were also more dynamic and attacked through different channels. Even in his latter years when we had a midfield with an average age of 34+ or something we still created enough chances.
Fergie and Ole is obviously no contest.
However we did have better players or lets say a better mix. For every Park or Fletcher we had a Carrick and Scholes.
Even when the Class of 92 came through (who were an exceptional bunch anyway) we still had experienced and quality players such as Cantona, Keane and Schmeichel (who unlike Cavani or Pogba weren’t injured or out of form regularly).
I want to see Ole with at least one quality addition in midfield and one on the wing.
In my opinion he has a good understanding of tactics and players have improved under him.
So despite some frustrating games I still think we are not that far away from beating parked buses. But without a proper winger (and/or CF) our football can look predictable. And with the current midfield we can’t keep the ball. Not a good recipe against better opposition.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

I think tactical approach to games was never too prevalent in England, that was certainly true before the arrival of foreign managers in early 2000s. I think it was Wenger who first put emphasis to tactics, nutrition, conditioning of the players into limelight. Then Jose brought his philosophy, his early Chelsea days were quite enthralling to watch. He wasn't always "park the bus" manager but he slowly morphed into one. Now with Pep, Carlo, Bielsa and Klopp in the league its all the rage.

I would not say United were ever overall tactical. Ferguson was a great leader of men, not necessarily the brilliant tactician. That shows in his limited success in UCL. I suspect Ole is very much in ferguson mould. Its frankly too early to tell what Ole could be, but given what I have seen so far he is unlikely to win PL/CL with United.

 

[Foxbatt]

I think tactical approach to games was never too prevalent in England, that was certainly true before the arrival of foreign managers in early 2000s. I think it was Wenger who first put emphasis to tactics, nutrition, conditioning of the players into limelight. Then Jose brought his philosophy, his early Chelsea days were quite enthralling to watch. He wasn't always "park the bus" manager but he slowly morphed into one. Now with Pep, Carlo, Bielsa and Klopp in the league its all the rage.

I would not say United were ever overall tactical. Ferguson was a great leader of men, not necessarily the brilliant tactician. That shows in his limited success in UCL. I suspect Ole is very much in ferguson mould. Its frankly too early to tell what Ole could be, but given what I have seen so far he is unlikely to win PL/CL with United.

I think next season is his last. He has to win the PL or the CL or else people will turn on him. I do not think he is going to win it also. I do not think he is even going to win the EL this year. Woodward is going to sacrifice Ole. He is not going to crucify himself. There is a limit that he can be blamed for the confusion on the pitch.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Three years ago we didn’t get knocked out of group stage in Champions League, got 81 points, finished second and reached a Cup Final, we’re definitely not better, that’s not a debate.

I think we are better than under Mourinho, but not by much. In fact it is very Mourinho like.

Before every match i dont even know which United will turn up.

 

[MU655]

Three years ago we didn’t get knocked out of group stage in Champions League, got 81 points, finished second and reached a Cup Final, we’re definitely not better, that’s not a debate.

Yep, and to match the points total of 17/18, we are going to have to average 2.7 points per game for the rest of the season. We are currently operating at 1.92. We will end with 73 points if we keep going at this rate, or maybe even worse judging by our current form.

I don't like the way we play against most teams. We are pretty boring to watch if Fernandes doesn't pull something out of the bag, and that isn't something you can continually rely on. We are lacking in terms of breaking down teams. We don't move the ball quick enough. There seems to be very little understanding between the players. There are a lot of issues in terms of tactics here that is resulting us getting too little out of the players we have.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Yep, and to match the points total of 17/18, we are going to have to average 2.7 points per game for the rest of the season. We are currently operating at 1.92. We will end with 73 points if we keep going at this rate, or maybe even worse judging by our current form.

I don't like the way we play against most teams. We are pretty boring to watch if Fernandes doesn't pull something out of the bag, and that isn't something you can continually rely on. We are lacking in terms of breaking down teams. We don't move the ball quick enough. There seems to be very little understanding between the players. There are a lot of issues in terms of tactics here that is resulting us getting too little out of the players we have.

Froman outside perspective it doesn’t really look you have any kind of set style, other than the fast break with wide forwards when you gain possession in your own half. In some ways that can be a good thing (I’ve always thought Guardiola’s teams struggle if they have to change style because of an opponent because everything is so well drilled into them. Likewise Liverpool trying to play using last seasons high energy, high press when they‘ve had injury issues and had to drop a lot of their midfielders into defensive roles. It’s disrupted them). So in that way Ole benefits from not needing to adhere to a specific philosophy, but also suffers because you don’t look like a team who are playing almost automatically, using muscle memory. And I think that leads to some hesitancy and pointless passes, especially from your CBs and CMs which in turn leads to opposing teams being able to drop into a defensive shape more easily.

 

[Foxbatt]

Froman outside perspective it doesn’t really look you have any kind of set style, other than the fast break with wide forwards when you gain possession in your own half. In some ways that can be a good thing (I’ve always thought Guardiola’s teams struggle if they have to change style because of an opponent because everything is so well drilled into them. Likewise Liverpool trying to play using last seasons high energy, high press when they‘ve had injury issues and had to drop a lot of their midfielders into defensive roles. It’s disrupted them). So in that way Ole benefits from not needing to adhere to a specific philosophy, but also suffers because you don’t look like a team who are playing almost automatically, using muscle memory. And I think that leads to some hesitancy and pointless passes, especially from your CBs and CMs which in turn leads to opposing teams being able to drop into a defensive shape more easily.

yes, when we have space behind the defence we can counter attack. But when other teams do not play to our strengths, we cannot break them down. Then our set pieces have been horrible. We do not seem to be able to defend against corners, neither can we score from our corners. Movement off the ball is terrible. It is now two years with this same set up so we should have been coached to pass and move. Smaller clubs with less talented players are able to do so that easily. We, one of the biggest clubs in the World are not capable of doing so with much talented and better players.