This is very accurate indeed. That basic identity we had in terms of tactics was also why we regularly struggled in Europe. We had some of the best individuals in the continent and yet they always had to work harder individually to make up for how we were regularly outsmarted positionally. What I wanted to add though is that a major difference back them was that the entire PL had the same "basic-ness". When you consider that one of the best teams ever seen in these shores in Arsenal (1998-2004) has never even reached a semi final, you can see how the standard of football being played in the league. Games in the '90s and early '00s were much more about individual duels that are there to be won and in that department with the likes of Stam, Keane, Beckham and Giggs we would win them much more often than not. Things have moved on though and players are much more strictly dependent to how others around them move and position themselves but we still seem to be yearning for that one bloke who will take charge and win us the league.
What actually is our plan?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Plan? 
‘The United way’ I think I heard Ole say a few times.
‘The United way’ I think I heard Ole say a few times.
Unfortunately there's a lot of truth in this. Tactically, we were nothing special in 07/08 even: we were reasonably flexible and bloody hard to beat with a great back four but relied on individual brilliance more often than not to pull us through. That's not good enough when 1) other teams in the league get 95+ points and 2) we do not actually have individual brilliance.
Yea, pretty much this. We need to evolve from the root up. Our last title was massively inspired by RvP, Ronaldo was instrumental in some of those before. That said, Jose, and Pep in particular brought a different tactical level to English football not previously seen.
A genuine concern is that Solskjær will try to replicate his mentor, while not being as good at it, nor having the same calibre of player.
United have been outplayed by lesser teams very often of late. Not just ‘outfought’ which smaller teams can often do. Coaches with a plan like Hasenhuttl or NES have had Wolves come and outplay us at Old Trafford even with Southampton and Wolves this season, in a way that we would not be able to do to a better side than us I don’t think - that is, simply being better drilled as opposed to just ‘spirit’. We have run on spirit and talent for too many years, and the chickens have come home to roost.
I agree with this generally. Though I think SAF is generally underappreciated tactically. Not saying he was a 'tactical visionary' like Michels, Cruyff, etc, but he was still very good.
Back to the present, your entire post is why I believe a great manager would do wonders for us.
Unfortunately the two best ones in the world for this at the moment preside at our rivals.
If everyone is fit I think our strongest team is
De Gea
Shaw
Lindelof
Smalling
Young
Pogba
Matic
Herrera
Martial
Rashford
Mata
Very quickly you can see the issues. Firstly we don’t have an actual RW. This causes issues going forward. We are currently relying on Ashley Young to deliver the ball into the box as a RB. We don’t attacks from both flanks.
That brings me to our next issue RB. We need a decent, experienced RB not some make shift former winger who isn’t good enough.
Now immediately we have two position on one side of the pitch that we don’t have players for. I’m ignoring Dalot as he’s young and for me doesn’t look like much of a defender (good crosser though). The team lacks any balance going forward, all of our play is from the left side. It’s easy and predictable for opponents.
Now drilling into the rest of the 11. We don’t have a striker that can score 20 league goals a season AND benefits the play for the rest of the team. Lukaku can score goals but I think he weakens how the team plays. Rashford is the other way round. Rashford could become that player but I think it’s a huge responsibility for a young lad. Solskjaer needs to stop accommodating Lukaku. Our attack has gone to shit since he started again.
At CB Smalling is weak. He has some solid performances but we need better than him. He can’t get into the England team yet is good enough for Manchester United?
Matic looks like his legs have gone a bit. I still think he’s a good player but not sure if he can play every game like he has done.
Then you look at our best players
Pogba - luxury player. Has a cnut of an agent who’s just going to hold this club to ransom. You just know he won’t sign a new contract and will be left to sell him or let him go on a free yet again. I would inclined to sell whilst we can get value in him.
De Gea - no news on him signing a new contract. I think we can all agree he’s all but gone.
Herrera - as above
Martial - either a 10/10 or a 1/10, in recent weeks it has been the latter.
Mata - never played in his correct position
In all it’s a mess of a best 11 and this summer is not going to change that. We probably need 7-8 players at this stage. Shocking considering the money spent.
De Gea
Shaw
Lindelof
Smalling
Young
Pogba
Matic
Herrera
Martial
Rashford
Mata
Very quickly you can see the issues. Firstly we don’t have an actual RW. This causes issues going forward. We are currently relying on Ashley Young to deliver the ball into the box as a RB. We don’t attacks from both flanks.
That brings me to our next issue RB. We need a decent, experienced RB not some make shift former winger who isn’t good enough.
Now immediately we have two position on one side of the pitch that we don’t have players for. I’m ignoring Dalot as he’s young and for me doesn’t look like much of a defender (good crosser though). The team lacks any balance going forward, all of our play is from the left side. It’s easy and predictable for opponents.
Now drilling into the rest of the 11. We don’t have a striker that can score 20 league goals a season AND benefits the play for the rest of the team. Lukaku can score goals but I think he weakens how the team plays. Rashford is the other way round. Rashford could become that player but I think it’s a huge responsibility for a young lad. Solskjaer needs to stop accommodating Lukaku. Our attack has gone to shit since he started again.
At CB Smalling is weak. He has some solid performances but we need better than him. He can’t get into the England team yet is good enough for Manchester United?
Matic looks like his legs have gone a bit. I still think he’s a good player but not sure if he can play every game like he has done.
Then you look at our best players
Pogba - luxury player. Has a cnut of an agent who’s just going to hold this club to ransom. You just know he won’t sign a new contract and will be left to sell him or let him go on a free yet again. I would inclined to sell whilst we can get value in him.
De Gea - no news on him signing a new contract. I think we can all agree he’s all but gone.
Herrera - as above
Martial - either a 10/10 or a 1/10, in recent weeks it has been the latter.
Mata - never played in his correct position
In all it’s a mess of a best 11 and this summer is not going to change that. We probably need 7-8 players at this stage. Shocking considering the money spent.
Weird timing for this thread. We’ve seen today’s formation and tactics plenty of times under Ole. The constant change in line-ups isn’t ideal but when you have players putting in absolutely awful performances like we’ve seen in recent weeks it’s basically impossible to identify a “best XI”.
Ole's plan is to warn players that there's absolutely no place to hide at OT only to play those who performed badly in the next game as well. Ah and he will remind us of how many talented youths we have and yet he will still insist in not playing them at all
This is spot on. I have always thought SAF was tactically not the best, but he was the best motivator and man manager. So once he got the right players, he just needs to get them motivated and they just go out and get the results.
Which is why we always struggled towards the higher end of the Champions League stages as at that level the tactical side becomes increasingly important for you to go through.
Pretty great post. We used a free form attack and even that was becoming outdated and exposed towards the end of SAF's tenure. Ole now seems to be trying to emulate a style that was getting dated even under SAF. I keep praying he'll see this and get his own Queiroz but all he seems to see is fitness and effort
Completely agree with both of these posts.
You cannot be criticized for this because it's the truth. One of your best ever posts on the caf I'd say
All I can assume is that the constant changes and different systems is solskjaer trying to give everybody a chance to show what they can do!
Once everyone’s had a chance to play and fight for the team he can see where everyone’s at and start the rebuild process,
Hopefully there’s a plan in place for that!
Once everyone’s had a chance to play and fight for the team he can see where everyone’s at and start the rebuild process,
Hopefully there’s a plan in place for that!
Pfft, not even top 10. But thank you kindly!
"Strongest team": (4-3-3/4-1-2-1-2/4-2-3-1 variations. )
DDG
Young - Lindelof - Smalling - Shaw
Herrera - Matic - Pogba
Lingard - Rashford - Martial
The way we played in the beginning, with high press/tempo, running, short passes, movement etc. I suspect this is similar to how we would still play and line up if the players would have been fit enough (We see that we often perform in the start of the games, but struggle more and more the longer the game last--> Lack of stamina).Young - Lindelof - Smalling - Shaw
Herrera - Matic - Pogba
Lingard - Rashford - Martial
Regarding our "plan" going forward: We will improve fitness during the summer, but as long as we are not able to keep possession and not being able to control and attack against balanced defences, we will continue to struggle against decent teams like Wolves, Everton, Leichester and West Ham.
Only way we are going to challenge for anything major is if the club changes its priority from $$$ to winning trophies (not going to happen under the current owners).
Throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks, is more likely.
This is an excellent post and precisely why we need to get a coach like Pochettino.
One thing that comes to mind is that video from the Molde training session when he gets on the players for passing too much in the box instead of just shooting.
I think a plan is what a DOF would set, isn’t it?
We don’t have an identity at the moment. We don’t have a (corporate bullshit now) usp. We used to be the ‘we’ll score 1 more than you’ team, but now I don’t know what we are. We aren’t tough, quick, aggressive, technical, or anything! We just flow through a game with nobody taking control and managing it within the game itself.
We don’t have an identity at the moment. We don’t have a (corporate bullshit now) usp. We used to be the ‘we’ll score 1 more than you’ team, but now I don’t know what we are. We aren’t tough, quick, aggressive, technical, or anything! We just flow through a game with nobody taking control and managing it within the game itself.
To play the Manchester United way which is attacking football according to Ole.
That's why today against Chelsea he took Mata off (attacking player) for McTom who's a (wait for it) a defensive player.
That's why today against Chelsea he took Mata off (attacking player) for McTom who's a (wait for it) a defensive player.
I know what mine would be. A new rb (awb or munier), 2 cbs (de ligt and alderweireld), keep herrera, another cm (someone good on the ball, can pass and spread it about), rw (sancho) and id try and swap lukaku for icardi. Id imagine thatd cost 300mil.
Ship of deadwood. Darmian Valencia baily rojo Pereira sanchez and lukaku is swapped.
You immediately move almost half our starting 11 to the 2nd team (young, matic, smalling, jones, jesse).
Ship of deadwood. Darmian Valencia baily rojo Pereira sanchez and lukaku is swapped.
You immediately move almost half our starting 11 to the 2nd team (young, matic, smalling, jones, jesse).
No he isn’t.
The DoF may as well coach the team then. The manager/coaches should be able to establish how he wants his team to play. A DoF won’t be able to go to any more detail than insisting his coach ‘play attacking football’. He’s not exactly going to tell the manager that the full-backs need to operate like this or that, or centre halves must push forward. If he were then he may as well be the coach.
Jose had a plan though. He would moan about it every week. He wanted better defenders, and he wanted physical midfielders, and he wanted players to be more aggressive so we could be compact defensively and punish errors. He screwed up because it was either a shite plan or he didn't try and implement it very well, but it was at least a plan.
I don't know what we're doing now. When Ole first took over, we picked the same team or close to it game after game. We pressed teams and forced errors higher up the pitch, and were direct and tried to play in behind teams. Players had to play well in a consistent role to stay in the team. Now we just change the team, positions, formation, tactics, everything at random. Nearly every player is either in and out of the team or being asked to do a different job from one game to the next. No matter how badly someone does they come back into the team within a week. No matter how well someone does they either come out of the team or are shunted into a different role. We're tying to build something and every day Ole and co are turning up with a completely different set of plans and materials and asking everyone to start again.
I have some sympathy as you have a point with a lot of the players, but if that's the case, start making some decisions about them, or at least back up what you say you want them to do. The only thing close to a vision we've had from Ole is that he wants the team to be fitter and work harder. That's fine, but then you can't really say that and then a week after the Everton game, put Lukaku and Matic in your starting line up. It just means you are either talking bollocks or have no idea what a hard working or fit team is. You want a team that can work harder than the opposition, then pick a midfielder who can't cover the ground required and a striker who literally looked like he was dying of a heart attack after he sprinted 30 metres.
I like Ole and I want him to succeed but he's in danger of just being another Moyes. If he waits until the end of the season to start making any decisions at all he's going to have trouble convincing anyone at the club or who he wants at the club of what direction he wants to go in.
Hit and hope basically.
Our fitness levels are one of the worst compared to other top teams.
Many players appear out of form, injured or gassed out throughout the season.
Some barely resemble footballers anymore - Lukaku.
Our fitness levels are one of the worst compared to other top teams.
Many players appear out of form, injured or gassed out throughout the season.
Some barely resemble footballers anymore - Lukaku.
Agreed. The last time I can recall a United team that really looked greater than the sum of its parts was as far back as 1979-80.
What are his options otherwise? Lingard and Martial have been woefully out of form, Sanchez barely looks like a premier league player, so he had to turn to Lukaku and Mata in attack.
The tragedy brothers were injured in defense so it was down to Lindelöf and Bailly and after Bailly he was scrapping the barrel. Not sure what's happened to Dalot so Young continues at right back.
In midfield, he has gone back to Matic, Herrera and Pogba, which is what he started with.
The diamond formation is back so it's what he used to such good effect in the beginning again. He wants them to press and recover the ball high up the pitch, unfortunately the team can't do it for more than half an hour. He wants the defenders breaking through the lines when midfield is closed and that's still happening unless Smalling is playing so there's some rhyme and reason.
Despite all this, we could still have comfortably gotten top 4 if our best player didn't go through calamitous form.
I don't think there's much Ole could do with individual errors, they are deflating and the whole team suffers when the goalkeeper is being so poor.
I'll give him a transfer window and preseason before passing any judgement on plans and style of play.
Moyes stuck to 4-2-3-1 despite ample evidence it wasn't working time and again and showed little tactical flexibility. Just the fact that ole is trying a few things with formation and tactics when things aren't working is far more encouraging.
Fergie was never a great tactician tbf. We were pretty naive in the start of the century and often exposed in Europe.
What we was - a brilliant man manager and motivator, being able to make most of his team and make players punch above their weight.
What we was - a brilliant man manager and motivator, being able to make most of his team and make players punch above their weight.
Just to mention it Molde had to start over when Solskjaer came back. He used a couple of Windows found young good players and today that team beat Rosenborg that has won the leauge 4 years in a row with players like Bendtner in the lineup 3 - 0.
If Solskjaer get to do the same thing United will become massive in 2-3 season. Thats how longe it Will take to rebuild, remove the rotten apples and change the wardrobe back to What it used to be. Solskjaers assistant took over Molde so hes just continuing What Solskjaer did. And i do haveto say that Molde plays a really funny football lots of goals.
And they also have done well in Europa league under Solskjaer with far less money than the opponents. I belive he knows exactly Who isent good enough. Who ruines the wardrobe and fecks UP the team mentality.
But a manager that wants respect protect the players from the media and dont blame and hang out players. Quite sure we all can agree personal mistaces from the players and not bad playing from the team has cost United to lose atleast 9-12 points sence Solskjaer took over. And for that you cant blame the manager.
Also maybe its good for United to not reach champions league so that the owners realize that Things need to change. And yes they have tried with 3 other managers. Difference now is that Solskjaer knows What and how United should be the others did not. Have faith!
If Solskjaer get to do the same thing United will become massive in 2-3 season. Thats how longe it Will take to rebuild, remove the rotten apples and change the wardrobe back to What it used to be. Solskjaers assistant took over Molde so hes just continuing What Solskjaer did. And i do haveto say that Molde plays a really funny football lots of goals.
And they also have done well in Europa league under Solskjaer with far less money than the opponents. I belive he knows exactly Who isent good enough. Who ruines the wardrobe and fecks UP the team mentality.
But a manager that wants respect protect the players from the media and dont blame and hang out players. Quite sure we all can agree personal mistaces from the players and not bad playing from the team has cost United to lose atleast 9-12 points sence Solskjaer took over. And for that you cant blame the manager.
Also maybe its good for United to not reach champions league so that the owners realize that Things need to change. And yes they have tried with 3 other managers. Difference now is that Solskjaer knows What and how United should be the others did not. Have faith!
We definitely have a style and it's better than the bitter onee. We just need better players
Sadly the truth.
What style it is? We’ve gone through Moyes football, through LvG possession one, through Jose’s counter attack till Ole’s experiments out of late..
Have people not been listening to Ole's interviews ?
The first couple of months were about getting the players confidence back and then when they found themselves in a race for top 4, it was simply about winning in any sharp or form(Which clearly we failed at.)
The first couple of months were about getting the players confidence back and then when they found themselves in a race for top 4, it was simply about winning in any sharp or form(Which clearly we failed at.)
This question could be aimed at every manager since SAF retired, plus the board and Woody.
They would never admit it but answer from them all would be...There is no plan other than, throw as much money at the problem as the budget allows.
They would never admit it but answer from them all would be...There is no plan other than, throw as much money at the problem as the budget allows.
The plan? Of course! Everyone has a plan!
Ole's plan is to win, the United way.
Mourinho's plan was to win, the Mourinho parked bus way.
Van Gaal's plan was to win, the philosophically horny way.
Moyeses plan was not to lose, the Jagielka way.
Ole's plan is to win, the United way.
Mourinho's plan was to win, the Mourinho parked bus way.
Van Gaal's plan was to win, the philosophically horny way.
Moyeses plan was not to lose, the Jagielka way.
Its core United fast paced counter attack. We just cant execute it.
Above all, our ambition.
I think Ole wants the team to play in the way you describe, but he has a squad with a limited number of players who are capable of carrying it off, and with a legacy of a shortfall in fitness (which is hard to sort out during the season). He has been very clear about the importance of pre-season, and has also said that he wants us to become the hardest working team in the league (so certainly not one of the laziest).
I really don't think we can make a judgement of Ole until he has had the chance to try to implement his ideas with a squad that is fit for purpose. I'm sure we will see better, more committed performances next season. Whether that turns out to be good enough, and whether Ole and his staff will display the required tactical acumen, remains to be seen. I'm very keen for him to be a success, so he still gets the benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned.
Gonna go against the grain here but I actually think these miss the mark and are too simplistic.
@Rozay First of all I think you're doing a massive disservice to United teams of old. I wont sit here and say all our teams under Sir Alex were great to watch but it certainly wasn't just 'crossing' football. Go back and watch some of our season review dvd's. 1999/2000, 2001/2002, 2002/2003, 2006/2007, 2007/2008, watch the goals in some of these seasons.
I find this comment quite ironic considering Liverpool have essentially been doing this all season. Liverpool haven't played great free flowing football this season at all(neither have Spurs btw) and it's Liverpools military like self determination and will to win that has them where they are. Jurgen Klopp isn't a tactic obsessed manager by any stretch of the imagination. It's his man management skills and relationship with his players that are his best traits and why he has this Liverpool team having this ridiculous season..He's built his team around 3/4 superstar individuals and the rest are workaholics. Now which manager does that sound like?
Also, you talk about crossing football and United but a hallmark of this Liverpool team is the crossing from the wing backs, don't Trent and Robertson have about 20 assists combined this season?
@Theonas Again, like you make this point about how the great Arsenal team never made a semi (and how that reflected on the standard of the league) and how it was more about individual talent, etc etc.
But hold on a second, this absolute monster of a Manchester City team in the league under Pep Guardiola havent even reached a CL semi final yet.
Mr modern day tactical marvel Pep Guardiola hasn't reached a CL final since 2011, despite regularly possessing a world class team. He's basically not won the CL without Lionel Messi.
Why is he constantly struggling with CL knockout away ties in particular despite supposedly being light years ahead of other coaches tactically?
Real Madrid won three European Cups in a row without a 'tactical identity' and won them all purely because of individual talent and a motivational manager.
So yeah it's just not that black and white, football isn't that simple, there's no set way of achieving success. What's great about this title race is the difference between City and Liverpool. Completely different managers, very different styles, tactics, formations, players etc.
Don't get me wrong, in agreement with the premise of the thread I think we're a complete mess at the moment.
But yeah, I don't think our problem is that we're not moving with the times, I actually think we've moved away from our core principles and that is why it's going so wrong.
How did a Manchester United team get filled with so many players who are quite frankly the wrong fit? Whether it be a lack of quality, work ethic, professionalism, loyalty, I look at players like Young, Jones, Pogba, Martial, Sanchez, Matic, Lukaku, Lingard, Darmian, Rojo and literally all of those players are massively lacking in one, two and sometimes even three of those key components.
We have no direction, we have no plan, there's just nothing going on with us at the moment. Nothing we do makes any sense. Who were we eyeing up post Mourinho for example? and Why did Ole only need 15 games to completely change our minds?
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